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Topic: Bitcoin halving to be canceled? - page 23. (Read 33718 times)

legendary
Activity: 3486
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November 14, 2015, 05:33:51 AM
Confidence in gold is based on inborn feelings and instincts (which are fixed and universal), while confidence in Bitcoin is purely rational and based on functions attributed to it (which can be called off). Without them it is useless. In this way it is no different from any other fiat money out there, as I said previously. Gold, on the other hand, is loved for what it is, in and of itself, not for what people set it to do. You are bringing forth concepts which are irrelevant to the question and trying to challenge what I have already at first made clear and then set aside as irrelevant...

Namely, the origin of value, subjective vs objective

Yes, this is the crux of what I am saying. You are not born valuing gold. It is a learned trait. There is nothing natural or instinctual about it.

So you are saying that everyone is being taught what is beautiful and what is ugly? Now tell me what universally bootstrapped gold in the first place (the issue of primary cause) if this is a learned trait as you say, in all those ancient civilizations divided by oceans and deserts, who had access to it...

Was it the same person (Doctor) Who taught them to love gold?
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
November 14, 2015, 03:42:36 AM
I remember you saying not so long ago that the longer the price is (was) at 230, the longer it will (would) be there... Aren’t I confusing you for someone else, lol?

nah i was saying that the more it stay there the more chances there will be for the value to increase, and in fact i was right  Grin

Okay then... Oh, wait, I guess this is not what you actually said

the more the 230 value will hold the market the more you can stay sure that we won't fall to sub 200

well i was right lol, i was implying that there was more chances for us to grow, it's the same thing
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1115
★777Coin.com★ Fun BTC Casino!
November 13, 2015, 04:39:18 PM
Maybe one day human would also have a way to create gold out of water and air (they are all electrons and neutrons/protons anyway). From this point of view, a man-made limitation that is followed by all the participants can provide much better security than a nature limitation which might be broken by technology advancement

Do you really think that when it becomes possible to create gold out of water and thin air as cheap as dirt, gold will lose its appeal and shine?


I don't know about appeal and shine, but I'm certain it will lose its value. Basic laws of economics tell you that when a limited resource suddenly becomes plentiful, it also becomes less valuable.
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1115
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November 13, 2015, 04:33:59 PM
Yes, I read it, I'm just disagreeing with your characterization of it. Value comes from two things: need and perception of value. Things that are not needs are not inherently valuable, and then value only comes from the perception that someone else will find value in it in the future. People like gold because it has value. Gold has value because people like it. Confidence in gold at this point is more tradition than anything else. You're saying that confidence in systems can't be compared to each other because the systems are different. That's not true at all. The systems can be radically different (like gold and bitcoin), and the value of each system still comes down to the confidence in the particular instrument. You can say that gold will always be valuable and cite its history as evidence and likely be right. That doesn't make it absolute, and the determining factor is always going to be whether or not people have confidence in the store of value.

Confidence in gold is based on inborn feelings and instincts (which are fixed and universal), while confidence in Bitcoin is purely rational and based on functions attributed to it (which can be called off). Without them it is useless. In this way it is no different from any other fiat money out there, as I said previously. Gold, on the other hand, is loved for what it is, in and of itself, not for what people set it to do. You are bringing forth concepts which are irrelevant to the question and trying to challenge what I have already at first made clear and then set aside as irrelevant...

Namely, the origin of value, subjective vs objective

Yes, this is the crux of what I am saying. You are not born valuing gold. It is a learned trait. There is nothing natural or instinctual about it.
hero member
Activity: 709
Merit: 503
November 13, 2015, 03:59:04 PM
Altering the declining reward scheme would make me want to leave Bitcoin.  If I sell my Bitcoins then the price will go down *unless* there are more buyers thinking the opposite of me.
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
November 13, 2015, 03:41:03 PM
I remember you saying not so long ago that the longer the price is (was) at 230, the longer it will (would) be there... Aren’t I confusing you for someone else, lol?

nah i was saying that the more it stay there the more chances there will be for the value to increase, and in fact i was right  Grin

Okay then... Oh, wait, I guess this is not what you actually said

the more the 230 value will hold the market the more you can stay sure that we won't fall to sub 200
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
November 13, 2015, 03:22:32 PM
WTF is this thread Huh
A block reward halving already happened from 50 to 25 BTC. Nobody got crazy, everyone knew what was happening.

Why should anything be different in July? 12.5 BTC per block is your new game. Get used to it, and get used to a higher USD/BTC ratio.

well in theory because the lower the block reward the less margin miners will have for they profit, it mean that they must rely more on the price increase, so it make in theory, sense that they are against it

but they know that changing anything so critical about bitcoin will actually kill their profit anyway, so nothing will really happen by this point of view

Don't think there'll be a profit loss. Same thing happened from 50 -> 25... And we're still okay Smiley

yeah because the price went up, it was not at 230 before(now above 300), when the block was 50, as log as the pirce increase miners will be fine, no matter the reward

I remember you saying not so long ago that the longer the price is (was) at 230, the longer it will (would) be there... Aren’t I confusing you for someone else, lol?

nah i was saying that the more it stay there the more chances there will be for the value to increase, and in fact i was right  Grin
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
November 13, 2015, 01:31:49 PM
WTF is this thread Huh
A block reward halving already happened from 50 to 25 BTC. Nobody got crazy, everyone knew what was happening.

Why should anything be different in July? 12.5 BTC per block is your new game. Get used to it, and get used to a higher USD/BTC ratio.

well in theory because the lower the block reward the less margin miners will have for they profit, it mean that they must rely more on the price increase, so it make in theory, sense that they are against it

but they know that changing anything so critical about bitcoin will actually kill their profit anyway, so nothing will really happen by this point of view

Don't think there'll be a profit loss. Same thing happened from 50 -> 25... And we're still okay Smiley

yeah because the price went up, it was not at 230 before(now above 300), when the block was 50, as log as the pirce increase miners will be fine, no matter the reward

I remember you saying not so long ago that the longer the price is (was) at 230, the longer it will (would) be there... Aren’t I confusing you for someone else, lol?
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
November 13, 2015, 11:36:15 AM
WTF is this thread Huh
A block reward halving already happened from 50 to 25 BTC. Nobody got crazy, everyone knew what was happening.

Why should anything be different in July? 12.5 BTC per block is your new game. Get used to it, and get used to a higher USD/BTC ratio.

well in theory because the lower the block reward the less margin miners will have for they profit, it mean that they must rely more on the price increase, so it make in theory, sense that they are against it

but they know that changing anything so critical about bitcoin will actually kill their profit anyway, so nothing will really happen by this point of view

Don't think there'll be a profit loss. Same thing happened from 50 -> 25... And we're still okay Smiley

yeah because the price went up, it was not at 230 before(now above 300), when the block was 50, as log as the pirce increase miners will be fine, no matter the reward
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
November 13, 2015, 08:22:32 AM
The beauty of bitcoin is that it is a protocol that is followed by its participants voluntarily, not forced on anyone, so anyone who don't like reward halving would have total freedom to fork their bitcoin with unlimited supply and see how it works

Doctor Goebbels, is that you?
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
November 13, 2015, 08:16:06 AM
Maybe one day human would also have a way to create gold out of water and air (they are all electrons and neutrons/protons anyway). From this point of view, a man-made limitation that is followed by all the participants can provide much better security than a nature limitation which might be broken by technology advancement

Do you really think that when it becomes possible to create gold out of water and thin air as cheap as dirt, gold will lose its appeal and shine? Regarding man imposed limits, they will stand only so long as all the participants are forced to follow them. Up till now laws of nature seem to have worked much better and more reliable, lol...

John Law would undoubtedly and unreservedly agree with me

The beauty of bitcoin is that it is a protocol that is followed by its participants voluntarily, not forced on anyone, so anyone who don't like reward halving would have total freedom to fork their bitcoin with unlimited supply and see how it works. As I said, this attempt has been tried even at the first reward halving, just search the forum post that made that fork and see for yourself how it went
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 587
Space Lord
November 13, 2015, 07:58:38 AM
WTF is this thread Huh
A block reward halving already happened from 50 to 25 BTC. Nobody got crazy, everyone knew what was happening.

Why should anything be different in July? 12.5 BTC per block is your new game. Get used to it, and get used to a higher USD/BTC ratio.

well in theory because the lower the block reward the less margin miners will have for they profit, it mean that they must rely more on the price increase, so it make in theory, sense that they are against it

but they know that changing anything so critical about bitcoin will actually kill their profit anyway, so nothing will really happen by this point of view

Don't think there'll be a profit loss. Same thing happened from 50 -> 25... And we're still okay Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
November 13, 2015, 07:49:21 AM
Maybe one day human would also have a way to create gold out of water and air (they are all electrons and neutrons/protons anyway). From this point of view, a man-made limitation that is followed by all the participants can provide much better security than a nature limitation which might be broken by technology advancement

Do you really think that when it becomes possible to create gold out of water and thin air as cheap as dirt, gold will lose its appeal and shine? Regarding man imposed limits, they will stand only so long as all the participants are forced to follow them. Up till now laws of nature seem to have worked much better and more reliable, lol...

John Law would undoubtedly and unreservedly agree with me
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
November 13, 2015, 07:41:46 AM
None of the money is natural, even gold has to be coined into unique form and weight to circulate as money. People usually do not accept gold bars/nuggets  because they can not tell the purity without professional equipment. Then the trust falls on the quality of those gold coins and the issuance of those coins, so they are usually made by authorities (gold smith centuries ago then later coinage organization). That's the key to money's value: An authority that people can trust

Using gold as money is an effect not a cause of gold's appeal to people. Bitcoin, like other fiat monies, doesn't have this attractiveness through its own existence per se, i.e. beyond the function of being money. In fact, its very existence is a result of conscious effort...

That was my point (natural vs artificial)

Gold is also an attempt to abstract value. During early Egypt time, gold was only used for decoration, the money at that time was grain. The move from grain to gold is one step further in the process of abstracting value. Gold have many good properties to act as a value abstraction, but eventually it becomes limited by its weight, now bitcoin is much better in this regards

This doesn't change a thing in the distinction I drew
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
November 13, 2015, 07:41:12 AM
In bitcoin, those authorities are back, now they are mathematics and network. People have no problem to trust the authoritative of mathematics (law of nature), but they might not trust the network because it is prone to human manipulation. So it is essential the protocol is followed by all the network participants and even its users

You forget that mathematics is applied by human beings altogether. While it can be faultless and perfect (unless proven otherwise, of course), humans are not. I would most certainly agree with you if you could somehow remove the human element from this sequence...

The weakest link in the chain

Maybe one day human would also have a way to create gold out of water and air (they are all electrons and neutrons/protons anyway). From this point of view, a man-made limitation that is followed by all the participants can provide much better security than a nature limitation which might be broken by technology advancement

legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
November 13, 2015, 07:35:54 AM
WTF is this thread Huh
A block reward halving already happened from 50 to 25 BTC. Nobody got crazy, everyone knew what was happening.

Why should anything be different in July? 12.5 BTC per block is your new game. Get used to it, and get used to a higher USD/BTC ratio.

well in theory because the lower the block reward the less margin miners will have for they profit, it mean that they must rely more on the price increase, so it make in theory, sense that they are against it

but they know that changing anything so critical about bitcoin will actually kill their profit anyway, so nothing will really happen by this point of view
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
November 13, 2015, 07:31:53 AM
Once must understand that halving is an essential part of the Bitcoin protocol, aimed at approximating the natural increase in scarcity, observed in other money systems, like gold (as opposed to currencies, like dollar, which can be printed ad infinitum)

The problem is that Bitcoin itself is not natural. As I have said elsewhere (and been attacked by assclowns of all stripes and denominations, lol), Bitcoin, in this aspect, is no different than any other fiat money out there (or currency, if you please), my point being that mimicking scarcity (or any other quality) of its counterparts such as gold doesn't endow it with the resilience and robustness due to their inherent value (entrenched deep in the minds and nature of people)...

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

None of the money is natural, even gold has to be coined into unique form and weight to circulate as money. People usually do not accept gold bars/nuggets  because they can not tell the purity without professional equipment. Then the trust falls on the quality of those gold coins and the issuance of those coins, so they are usually made by authorities (gold smith centuries ago then later coinage organization). That's the key to money's value: An authority that people can trust

Using gold as money is an effect not a cause of gold's appeal to people. Bitcoin, like other fiat monies, doesn't have this attractiveness through its own existence per se, i.e. beyond the function of being money. In fact, its very existence is a result of conscious effort...

That was my point (natural vs artificial)

Gold is also an attempt to abstract value. During early Egypt time, gold was only used for decoration, the money at that time was grain. The move from grain to gold is one step further in the process of abstracting value. Gold have many good properties to act as a value abstraction, but eventually it becomes limited by its weight, now bitcoin is much better in this regards

The color and feeling of gold is irrelevant, there are other metals with better physical properties, for example platinum, but they never worked as money due to they are similar to alt-coin, too late into the new standard
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 587
Space Lord
November 13, 2015, 07:28:53 AM
WTF is this thread Huh
A block reward halving already happened from 50 to 25 BTC. Nobody got crazy, everyone knew what was happening.

Why should anything be different in July? 12.5 BTC per block is your new game. Get used to it, and get used to a higher USD/BTC ratio.
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
November 13, 2015, 07:24:22 AM
In bitcoin, those authorities are back, now they are mathematics and network. People have no problem to trust the authoritative of mathematics (law of nature), but they might not trust the network because it is prone to human manipulation. So it is essential the protocol is followed by all the network participants and even its users

You forget that mathematics is applied by human beings altogether. While it can be faultless and perfect (unless proven otherwise, of course), humans are not. I would most certainly agree with you if you could somehow remove the human element from this sequence...

The weakest link in the chain
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
November 13, 2015, 07:21:19 AM
But later on in France, these authorities became untruthful and start to dilute the gold in the coins, and John Law even came up with the idea of fiat money that is backed by shares (Mississippi bubble), thus sank the credit worthiness of fiat money, and failed. But since then fiat money started to be backed by some complex securities that is totally out of understanding of average Joe, and became a supply/demand game

As I know it, it was not John Law's fault, or the failure of the principle behind his system. Its collapse was due to heavy abuse of the system by the Crown, which thought they found an endless fountain of wealth
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