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Topic: Bitcoin halving to be canceled? - page 30. (Read 33718 times)

full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
September 24, 2015, 12:42:18 AM
#69
There was much hype about the Fed raising interest rates in 2015, but we are still there, at the lowest possible level (wtf, it is even no longer the lowest possible limit). Bitcoin halving in July, 2016, is talked about as much, but will it really happen?

I ain't sure



I dont think so, many other countries have been using this biticoin aside here in the US and all it has to be something very serious to have this cancelled.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1058
September 24, 2015, 12:08:31 AM
#68
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
September 23, 2015, 09:49:18 PM
#67
So the point of reward halving (among other things) was to attract users to this then entirely new technology. I take it, and it might have served well to this end, but I'm still suspicious that nowadays it wouldn't make more harm than good...

It is in fact a large topic about reward halving, I guess Satoshi must have put lots of consideration in this area

There are basically 3 types of money supply scheme:
1. exponentially increasing (fiat money)
2. linearly increasing (Dogecoin)
3. limited (Bitcoin)

In fact, 2 and 3 are almost the same from macro economy point of view: After some decades, the increase in total money supply in 2 will become so insignificant percentage wise, that it is almost like fixed (If the money supply increases 0.1% per year, then its impact on inflation is almost the same as limited total money supply)

So for the sake of simplicity, Satoshi went for model 3, which could give a very clear signal of limited total money supply

Then he had to decide how those limited coins will enter circulation over time

There are basically 3 types of distribution model:
1. distribute using a progressively increasing schedule
2. distribute equal amount of coins each year for xxx years until reach the limit
3. distribute using a progressively decreasing schedule

It is clear he didn't want to use model 1 or 2: If bitcoin indeed take off and gained mainstream popularity, then large banks with lots of resource will easily control majority of the coins at later stage. Those who are interested in the idea must be able to control a large part of the bitcoin when it is still in its infancy

So a progressively decreasing schedule was selected. Then how fast and how often the block reward will drop will be decided. It must consider the speed the information is spreading on internet, give early pioneers enough time to react, but it should also leave enough incentive for late adopters to continue strengthen the network until the fee income replace the block reward

If the reward drops too fast, it will reduce the late adopters' incentive thus might fail to attract enough support before it reach mainstream. If the reward drops too slow, it will be close to model 2 thus give large institutions enough time to control majority of the bitcoins. 4 years period is already a long time for any IT related projets, so let half of the coins distributed during 4 years sounds like a decent pace

Why 50% drop every 4 years instead of 16% every year? I have not figured out a good reason, maybe to make the mining anticipation simple and relatively stable during a 4 years time. Could also be a strong anticipation of price rally every 4 years, thus everyone is at least hold their coins for 4 years, encouraging long term saving
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 07:02:20 AM
#66

How do you know? You never get 100% majority (maybe only in the Soviet Russia, wtf), since there are many ways to fix bugs, and even some bugs are sometimes... often times considered as "features"

Now we see the dispute about the blocksize limit

yes indeed. blocksize change would be the first example.

but why do you insist on changing bitcoin?
why dont you just invest in an altcoin which does what you like? if its better in the longrun it will prosper.

Dogecoin is good (for speculating), but it is a little too hard on the cardiovascular system. That's why I care, lol

only time and adoption can change that...
imho the first bitcoin traders had the same problems
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 07:00:25 AM
#65

How do you know? You never get 100% majority (maybe only in the Soviet Russia, wtf), since there are many ways to fix bugs, and even some bugs are sometimes... often times considered as "features"

Now we see the dispute about the blocksize limit

yes indeed. blocksize change would be the first example.

but why do you insist on changing bitcoin?
why dont you just invest in an altcoin which does what you like? if its better in the longrun it will prosper.

Dogecoin is good (for speculating), but it is a little too hard on the cardiovascular system. That's why I care, lol
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 06:58:25 AM
#64

How do you know? You never get 100% majority (maybe only in the Soviet Russia, wtf), since there are many ways to fix bugs, and even some bugs are sometimes... often times considered as "features"

Now we see the dispute about the blocksize limit

yes indeed. blocksize change would be the first example.

but why do you insist on changing bitcoin?
why dont you just invest in an altcoin which does what you like? if its better in the longrun it will prosper.
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 06:56:09 AM
#63

That's what I expected to hear. Now, say, 90% of all miners agree on canceling Bitcoin halving and begin using a new version of the client between themselves. Then the disagreeing minority will either have to put up or shut up, right?

What will happen to Bitcoin holdings?

no, that 10% can use bitcoin as-is.
and the 90% majority doesnt have the right to call it bitcoin. they have created an altcoin which initial balances would be "copied over" (copied is not technically correct but i think you get the point).

I disagree with that. If you were right, then we would still have Bitcoin as it had been at its birth, since no change would be possible without losing the right to call a new version Bitcoin. There will always be people who don't agree with every change done or proposed, and that's normal...



bitcoins social contract has never been changed.
any hardfork made was to fix bugs, which got 100% majority easily.
new features where introduced through softforks (means: only miners need to update)

so there never has been an example to support your claim

How do you know? You never get 100% majority (maybe, only in Soviet Russia, wtf), since there are many ways to fix bugs, and even some bugs are sometimes... often times considered as "features"

Now we see the dispute about the blocksize limit, isn't it just what you ask for?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 06:51:40 AM
#62

That's what I expected to hear. Now, say, 90% of all miners agree on canceling Bitcoin halving and begin using a new version of the client between themselves. Then the disagreeing minority will either have to put up or shut up, right?

What will happen to Bitcoin holdings?

no, that 10% can use bitcoin as-is.
and the 90% majority doesnt have the right to call it bitcoin. they have created an altcoin which initial balances would be "copied over" (copied is not technically correct but i think you get the point).

I disagree with that. If you were right, then we would still have Bitcoin as it had been at its birth, since no change would be possible without losing the right to call a new version Bitcoin. There will always be people who don't agree with every change done or proposed, and that's normal...



bitcoins social contract has never been changed.
any hardfork made was to fix bugs, which got 100% majority easily.
new features where introduced through softforks (means: only miners need to update)

so there never has been an example to support your claim
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 06:48:24 AM
#61

That's what I expected to hear. Now, say, 90% of all miners agree on canceling Bitcoin halving and begin using a new version of the client between themselves. Then the disagreeing minority will either have to put up or shut up, right?

What will happen to Bitcoin holdings?

no, that 10% can use bitcoin as-is.
and the 90% majority doesnt have the right to call it bitcoin. they have created an altcoin which initial balances would be "copied over" (copied is not technically correct but i think you get the point).

I disagree with that. If you were right, then we would still have Bitcoin as it had been at its birth, since no change would be possible without losing the right to call a new version Bitcoin. There will always be people who don't agree with every change done or proposed, and that's normal...

So, I guess, the remaining 10% will have to put up (otherwise risking losing their coins), and it is actually a matter of consensus through the majority by miners

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
September 23, 2015, 06:46:49 AM
#60
Again, why are we entertaining this nonsense? This is entry level shit, the sort of question that belongs in the newbie section and which doesn't go on for more than three replies.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 06:42:25 AM
#59

That's what I expected to hear. Now, say, 90% of all miners agree on canceling Bitcoin halving and begin using a new version of the client between themselves. Then the disagreeing minority will either have to put up or shut up, right?

What will happen to Bitcoin holdings?

no, that 10% can use bitcoin as-is.
and the 90% majority doesnt have the right to call it bitcoin. they have created an altcoin which initial balances would be "copied over" (copied is not technically correct but i think you get the point).

anybody will have their coins in both forks (well at least if they followed the rule "you only have bitcoins if you own the private key")
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 06:38:02 AM
#58
Are there any technical issues that could hinder the switch? I mean the situation when a simple upgrade is not enough? In other words, if someone doesn't care about Bitcoin halving, would he notice anything?

if bitcoin-core removes the halving and all miners, exchanges and shops switch your hypnotically user would be on a fork which means he wouldnt receive transactions and has problems sending them

If I got you right, a simple upgrade of the client will do the trick? So it is just some obscure constant set in the code which needs to be removed, right?

yes (technically its not a constant), it is an easy change
the problem is to convince all users to use that client. so its easier to just use an altcoin which does this (in my case monero. dodge does it also though i think their tail reward is too large)

That's what I expected to hear. Now, say, 90% of all miners agree on canceling Bitcoin halving and begin using a new version of the client between themselves. Then the disagreeing minority will either have to put up or shut up, right?

What will happen to Bitcoin holdings in that case?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 06:30:45 AM
#57
Are there any technical issues that could hinder the switch? I mean the situation when a simple upgrade is not enough? In other words, if someone doesn't care about Bitcoin halving, would he notice anything?

if bitcoin-core removes the halving and all miners, exchanges and shops switch your hypnotically user would be on a fork which means he wouldnt receive transactions and has problems sending them

If I got you right, a simple upgrade of the client will do the trick? So it is just some obscure constant set in the code which needs to be removed, right?

yes (technically its not a constant), it is an easy change
the problem is to convince all users to use that client. so its easier to just use an altcoin which does this (in my case monero. dodge does it also though i think their tail reward is too large)
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 06:27:45 AM
#56
Are there any technical issues that could hinder the switch? I mean the situation when a simple upgrade is not enough? In other words, if someone doesn't care about Bitcoin halving, would he notice anything?

if bitcoin-core removes the halving and all miners, exchanges and shops switch your hypnotically user would be on a fork which means he wouldnt receive transactions and has problems sending them

If I got you right, a simple upgrade of the client will do the trick? So it is just some obscure constant set in the code which needs to be removed (from a technical point of view), right?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 06:24:53 AM
#55
Are there any technical issues that could hinder the switch? I mean the situation when a simple upgrade is not enough? In other words, if someone doesn't care about Bitcoin halving, would he notice anything?

if bitcoin-core removes the halving and all miners, exchanges and shops switch your hypnotically user would be on a fork which means he wouldnt receive transactions and has problems sending them

also he could be attacked by time-warping and sybill attacks (though not sure why someone would do this on a worthless fork)
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 06:19:41 AM
#54
[...] That we can't say beforehand whether the coming halving will be beneficial to Bitcoin, or, at least, that it will not have devastating consequences

all we can say for sure is that the halving's will happen.

Okay, let's say that we are given strong persuading evidence that the halving (in the way it is expected to happen) will put Bitcoin at risk of total collapse. In that case, would you still insist that it will happen, no matter what?

yes. because the halving is part of the definition what bitcoin is.
anything else is an altcoin which has no right to use that name.

only if 100% of miners, users and shops switch they may use the name bitcoin for their alt. but its impossible to convince 100%

Are there any technical issues that could hinder the switch? I mean the situation when a simple upgrade is not enough? In other words, if someone doesn't care about Bitcoin halving, would he notice anything?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 06:15:11 AM
#53
[...] That we can't say beforehand whether the coming halving will be beneficial to Bitcoin, or, at least, that it will not have devastating consequences

all we can say for sure is that the halving's will happen.

Okay, let's say that we are given strong persuading evidence that the halving (in the way it is expected to happen) will put Bitcoin at risk of total collapse. In that case, would you still insist that it will happen, no matter what?

yes. because the halving is part of the definition what bitcoin is.
anything else is an altcoin which has no right to use that name.

only if 100% of miners, users and shops switch they may use the name bitcoin for their alt. but its impossible to convince 100%
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 06:11:48 AM
#52
[...] That we can't say beforehand whether the coming halving will be beneficial to Bitcoin, or, at least, that it will not have devastating consequences

all we can say for sure is that the halving's will happen.

Okay, let's say that we are given strong persuading evidence that the halving (in the way it is expected to happen) will put Bitcoin at the risk of total collapse. In that case, would you still insist that it will happen as designed, no matter what?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251
September 23, 2015, 06:09:16 AM
#51
[...] That we can't say beforehand whether the coming halving will be beneficial to Bitcoin, or, at least, that it will not have devastating consequences

all we can say for sure is that the halving's will happen.
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
September 23, 2015, 06:06:23 AM
#50
If so (Bitcoin halving being beneficial), will slashing the reward more drastically, or just more frequent halving be even more beneficial, up to a point of a zeroed reward?

imho: 25btc/block forever is too much.
the monero way: reduce until 0.3/xmr block seems very good to me.

i dont think it doesnt really matter how fast it gets there. i am more thinking longterm 10yrs+

So you just don't know (whether it is actually beneficial), right?

no. thats why i said imho.

That's exactly what I was trying to convey. That we can't say beforehand whether the coming halving will be beneficial to Bitcoin, or, at least, that it will not have devastating consequences
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