Topic: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se - page 3. (Read 3983 times)

1. my real stash never touched a KYC'd exchange.
2. my real stash never used illicit or suspicious services to warrant a investigation to tag my coins
3. any deposits made into services and out of services never used the username "franky1"
4. when doing private trades or purchases or sales i dont do it using any info of real life or forum persona
5. i wont reveal the other ways i changed things over the years

Can a chain analysis company find it (since you said you've never used mixers)?

i have a known vanity address i use for worthless meaningless public stuff

i have MANY addresses for my private stash that i have accumulated over 11 years. .. try to find my real stash.. goodluck
i never used a mixer, but i know you wont find my stash
enjoy trying though

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yep setting a contract with a specific pool to pay them in tx-fee's your value. and they later using a different reward pay you back is a way to get clean coins.. but a 83btc in 83btc out is easy to spot. however smaller amounts can go unnoticed

Of course, someone paid 83 BTC fees to clean the money trail. And no, it wasn't a fat finger mistake. Still a bit risky though (if you don't know which pool is gonna solve the block).

People will always find ingenious ways within BTC's mainnet rules, that's for sure...

Can you find my entire transactions history ? Or franky's ? I have a lot of merged inputs so it must be an easy task .

Not that I agree with this logic, but do you think you have privacy against other people with bitcoin?  Coin control is very limited and you will likely merge inputs together at some point. 

got to love the irony..
transparent open public blockchain... and people want to talk about privacy.

anonymity is different to privacy
anonymous is different to private
and no currency has ever had any human rights or national constitutional rights about financial privacy

people have financial privacy against other people. but not the government
heck even in the UK the government are making laws to easily access people bank account details without court order for those in receipt of social security(pension, welfare)
so dont be surprised that currency does not offer any human right protections, because it never has

What if the criminal uses a non-custodial mixer? Would the government prosecute developers instead (considering that they can't shut down the mixer itself)? Considering that most developers reveal their identities to the public, hunting them down would be a "piece of cake". The non-custodial mixer would remain in operation, though. Especially because of its decentralized and censorship-resistant design.

You can see how the US government was unable to shut down Tornado.Cash, despite sanctioning it. Developers even made a fork out of the non-custodial mixer. Be aware though, using a non-custodial mixer to "obfuscate" your BTC transactions would catch the attention of the government (if you're careless). Even if you're not doing anything illegal. I guess privacy on Bitcoin will be a never-ending battle. Unless people stand up and defend their right to privacy, governments will win. Who knows what the future holds for Bitcoin? 

i too dont believe all users are criminals.. but there lays the problem.. mixers only worl if they can recruit innocents.. the innocent people with coins unrelated to crimes usually deposit their clean coins and end up withdrawing the bag of crap dirty coins.. thus aiding the criminals by handing them clean coins
the victims are then left being treated as suspicious to a higher threshold as they now have a taint path back to a tagged criminal act before the mixer, but handed to victims via the mixer

BlackHatCoiner earns $1200/month (his words, not mine) from advertising mixers.

Trust me, that's enough to live in Greece. The minimum wage is €660/month, so he earns more than that and he even loves shitposting and arguing with franky1 and others to increase his post count (again: his words, not mine).

I'm able to confirm it. He has also participated in other Greek forums.

You can also check his posts in the Greek subforum of bitcointalk.

I'm not in favor of mixing if we're talking about laundering stolen money from exchanges (such as MtGox). Traceability is a good thing in certain cases.

Unfortunately, yeah, some people aid criminals.

I don't believe everyone who uses mixers is a criminal, but you can definitely be associated with criminals and get in trouble.

If people want true anonymity, they should migrate to Monero. I know BTC maxis will disagree, but BTC wasn't designed to do everything and Satoshi disappeared all of a sudden.

Bitcoin mixing may not be money laundering, but money launderers use mixers to launder money. That basically means anytime someone steals crypto and sends them through a mixer, that mixer is now guilty in laundering money and all those associated with it could also be seen as breaking the law. So mixers are all basically just waiting for their own shutdown.

I am trying to keep up with your posts.  I know the difference between anonymity and privacy.  So you are in favor of privacy, but you are opposed to anonymity.

So what you are saying is that you want privacy, but from strangers on the Internet, not from the state.  The state must surveil everything according to you.  I am not going to counterargue with an Orwellian (we can agree to disagree on this part), but I want to point out that you contradict yourself.

Let me put forward my thought.  You say that the people should be forbidden from mixing, because without mixing you can prove to the authorities that you own addresses affiliated with a criminal (or not).  I say that you can do that with a mixer as well.  What is stopping you?  Take an example with coinjoin.  You can sign a message from the inputs and the outputs. 

Another way to tell you that you are wrong, is that Bitcoin does not provide you enough privacy to begin with.  There are many ways you can mess things up and reveal to the entire network who you are, it is trivial to link your addresses together.  In other words, the state can monitor you (as you want) but strangers  do so as well.

Oh my , why i waste my time .
Dear , try to understand the difference between privacy and anonymity . You are trying to create something based on nothing . I want privacy , you want anonymity . Understand the distinction first and then we can procced .
That individual in your example will hold coins from criminal actions . Hello ? Does anybody live in the upper floor ? Or it is uninhabited .

If bitcoin provides privacy to everyone, then it contradicts your initial statement that for one to want privacy they need to prove they are innocent.  Every user can enjoy certain levels of anonymity with bitcoin without proving they are innocent.

You register in bitcointalk.org under a pseudonym.  That means you want some privacy.  Can you please prove to us you are innocent, otherwise why would you want privacy?


Lmao.  Very reasonable.  So, if someone cannot prove they own coins (or owned coins in the past), they must be treated as suspects?

One has to know how to use mixer safely and overall, things are very complicated. If someone sends money from Electrum lightweight without using proxy but uses mixer, then the privacy of this person is not protected and it's meaningless to use mixer. Also, one has to understand that any mixer can be a honeypot. Things are way more complicated.

How are we sure that angelo is from greece, oeleo was a doctor and windfury was into carpentry?
They can claim whatever they want but that doesn't mean what they say is true. I can give you a false senes that I am a professional doctor by talking about anything related to medicine in live chat with you but that doesn't really mean I am a doctor, maybe I am just a person who was obsessed with medicine and spent years to study it at home? Maybe I speak English, Spanish and Russian very well but my native language is none of them but I can pretend that I am a Russian, right? What if all the image they created is false? Maybe I am British and intentionally use American words and sometimes bad grammar in order to create false persona? Maybe that's why I say color instead of colour, favorite instead of favourite and so on?

I haven't seen many posts of yours but what you were saying and say here about privacy, etc, makes sense for me.

Bitcoin mixing originally doesn't seem to be wrong, but I think it depends on those using it. The Dev has a unique plan for it, but some people with criminal intentions have found a way to use it to hide their track which negates what Bitcoin is supposed to be known for.

firstly.. dont cite blog posts of tin foilers.. actually take time to read the regulations the tin foilers paranoia over.. form own opinion
the eIDAS is not actually requiring all EU websites to certificate and then ask for ID.. its actually simply that government run websites will have a log-in security certificate, which they want webbrowsers to have a wallet extension/add-on which recognises a EU government site to allow people to log in using a government ID on government sites (not normal websites). the actual debate is the government wanting browsers to have these wallets installed as default extensions where the wallet is closed source so browser operators are unsure what the wallet actually does.. thats it

secondly
advertising a swap service where whats deposited is not the same coin origins as whats withdrew can be advertised creatively as a different service that does not even sound anything close to the words "mixer, tumbler, obfuscate, AEC, privacy" however those wanting privacy can figure out what the service does wink wink nudge nudge.. cough satoshi dice cough

but blatantly advertising that more people should use mixers and pretending that users of mixers are not monitored more closely is dumb

as for thinking those advertising mixers "on this forum. who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time" pfft
blackhat isnt capable
angelo is from greece and his home interior walls where he plays with his gadgets is painted blue.
oeleo was a doctor, windfury was into woodwork/carpentry. ud be surprised what these people reveal about themselves.. they dont care about their own privacy, they definitely dont care about other peoples privacy. recruiting people into being monitored more highly..  they just care about promoting a service they get income from

i for months have been suggesting they need to re-vamp the services they promote and tweak things, maybe i was too subtle with the hints. yea yea i dont spoonfeed babies.. but they just wanted to play dumb pretend there is not problems and their promotions offer users guaranteed invisibility .. pfft

I agree with you on that approach but mixers are a little different. Mixers aren't as famous as guns. Someone has to promote mixers in order to increase awareness. There are people on this forum who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time. If they use it and advertise and are making themselves a target, it's their problem. You, as a member, see the pros and cons of mixers and you can use it without promoting or suggesting it to other people.

We have Monero for better privacy, thanks god, it's legal and untouched and it's not necessary to ruin Bitcoin by making changes that will worsen the situation in crypto world and will lead to more regulations.

By the way, I don't know if blackhatcoiner promotes the mixer usage to gain more profit because he probably doesn't own mixer and profit generated from mixer signature is not enough to live or survive in Europe (he seems to be from Greece). I can't talk about BHcoiner but there are genuinely some people who advocate for protecting privacy.


Look at this, they want to completely control what people do:
EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems
Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU
EU Digital Identity framework (eIDAS) another kind of chat control

I wasn't aware of that , thanks for pointing out .

tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing mixer code. he got charged for receiving a fee for being personally involved in shuffling funds used in a crime

its like silk road owner.. if he just operated a craigs list platform where he never touched any coin.never took a fee.. his life story would be very different

LN devs wont be charged just for writing LN code. but if they operate a node channel that allows routing of their funds to process payments for a fee on behalf of others..  and if they take a fee for routing. then they are operating as a MSB. and thus need to be doing things as suggested by regulations. if they dont and if found they processed and profited from routing to a threshold that treats them as a business.. but never registered as one. then trouble begins
if they then ontop are found to have processed criminal/illicit payments. then they can be charged for bigger crimes.

tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing code