Topic: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se - page 4. (Read 4155 times)

LN is by default a money transmitter service , and could be also placed in the category of money laundering services as it anonymises transactions . This has been mentioned many times in the past in here and those presenting the problem were consider loonies . A whole community is waiting for the overenginnered "holy graal" which will be proven a waste of 8 years and a serious delay in bitcoin adoption . Probably we will see devs working on LN facing charges like the tornado cash dev at some point ? Authorities work slow but they will act at some point .

BlackHatCoiner, could you add this point to OP as additional information for mixer definition, please.

It is not a mixer definition but is part of elements to consider a mixer is illegal or not.


It won't change anything because the admin decided and Mixers to be banned but I think with that quote, it can add a useful information for your topic.

It would've been different if criminals didn't use mixers. It's unfortunate bitcoin mixers are being used for bad criminal tumbling cash to launder. That's one of the reasons mixers are going to be banned in the forum next year. If govts form an alliance to ban mixers they'll become illegal. It means ppl shouldn't use them because they'll break the law.

Many people abuse mixers for the purpose of embezzling funds from crimes resulting from corruption and other illegal funding, because they can disguise the user's address.  This is an important concern for the government to investigate cases like this, in fact crypto has become the main choice for irresponsible individuals, Because there have been many criminal cases involving misuse of mixer services for certain purposes. Maybe this is one of the main causes, even next year a ban will be implemented on promoting their advertisements here

Less sig campaigns means there's less spam so that's a benefit but there isn't a ban or restriction on talking about mixers. They won't be promoted or advertised so they've been banned in the forum. It's going to affect sig campaigners so we're going to see less income ops now but if it's the safest action for protecting the forum theymos made a good decision.

people say the same about guns "i have the right to bear arms"
yes but if you are seen walking along a sidewalk openly waving a gun around shouting "this is my right i will defend myself" you will become a suspect of possibly wanting to use the gun for illegal purpose like shooting someone, they will want to know what you mean by and how you intent to "defend yourself"
you will be approached by cops for suspicion of inciting fear and terror

many cops also have the right to defend themselves. so if they see you waving a gun around they may see you as a threat..

and thats how america got so bad.. right to bear arms = cops allowed to shoot if feeling threatened
also cops can stop and search you and ID you to make sure you are permitted/licenced to have a gun.

if you want to have a gun. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it
if you want use/be a mixer. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it

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posting from another topic ITS ABOUT MIXING AND BLACKHATS THOUGHTS SO ITS ON_TOPIC AND RELEVANT
(topic about putting mixer tools into core)

blackhatcoiner KNOWS core is the default CORE(central) reference client thus it is the defacto protocol decision maker these days. so wanting to make core become a mixer tool is the biggest red alarm where everyones coins will be treated as suspicious

the idiot wants to think if every coin is suspicious the analysis businesses will give up analysing.. he doesnt understand by making every transaction suspicious they will enact more policy and lobby more regulation..

people can make their own wallet software (forked code of core and rebranded) into a mixer tool manager. however making the reference client everyone use into a mixer is stupidly going to cause more problems for all users.

blackhatcoiner is more interested in sales commissions of promoting mixers, than caring about the repercussions on the users of such

mixers should be just a side niche service not everyone needs. but for the idiots that want to get tagged as suspicion can remain idiots and use mixers to get listed on a watchlist by using mixers..

the solution to being tagged and watchlisted, is not to recruit everyone to be tagged and watchlisted. though i feel blackhat earns more commission if everyone was

Oh well, I guess some people will stop (shit)posting...

I know someone who made $1200/month (not a lot of money in the USA, but still plenty enough in poorer countries).

If people don't like Theymos' decision (that's fine), they should start a decentralized forum, because bitcointalk.org has always been centralized. Deal with it.

I haven't used a mixer ever . Does that mean that everything you ask me to provide is accessible to anyone ? Doesn't bitcoin provide privacy ? Because i think there's a section in the whitepaper that explains specifically that part . And if at any time authorities ask me , i have the proof of source of funds . Do you ? How will you explain to them if your funds come directly from a hacked exchange or other criminal activities ?
- " Your honor , i'm a privacy seeker and i thought it was a good idea to mix my funds in a pool that 50% of the mixed funds are from criminal activity and 50% are legal . Trust me , i'm not one of those criminals . And remember , no one is guilty until proven otherwise " .
- " Do you have any evidence to prove your innocence ? "
- " No , just my word "
Guess the verdict .



I thought bitcoin was created so society can get rid of those banking tactics that everyone dislike . Do we want to have a more advanced money laundering system than the banking ?

Well, despite that mixers are "not necessarily illegal" theymos banned their advertising and promoting on the forum starting January 1, 2024.

It doesn't stop the discussion about mixers, but I'd say it is an important statement in line with it on this forum.

I'm saying it isn't fair for govts to say ppl who've used mixers are doing something illegal. They know mixers like banks can be used for good or bad reasons so they shouldn't put all bitcoin traders in one criminal bracket. Criminals have taken advantage of crypto so that's why it's getting a hard time.

 Not in every country just some.

They are literally taking half of our paycheck and using it to bomb children in Palestine.  


Please tell us your full name, phone number, where you live, how much money you have and share us your transaction history.  If you do not because you consider this information private, can you please prove to us you are innocent?

No.  You do not have to.  The default position is innocence.  You are not guilty until proven guilty.

I don't know from where to start and where to end . But i will say only this , the criminals using the bank system to hide their money do something completely ethical as they're trying to gain privacy according to your logic . Correct ?
And you will say to protect your position that many are not criminals and are just trying to protect their privacy . My question to that is , how you can prove that you do this just to increase your privacy ? And how it feels to be exit liquidity to those laundering criminal money ?
Laundering money as far as i know involves a high fee , as launderers may face criminal charges . So , they do it for profit . You guys are just handing them your clean money for free and may face charges . Good for you , keep it going . I'll stay on the sidelines with my four hands .

Mixing BTC is NOT money laundering - you're trying to gain privacy, this is perfectly ethical. You're not harming anyone.

They've simply used these terms to make you feel like a criminal.

Ironically, they're the ones laundering & counterfeiting our money. That is harming all of us.

The right thing to do is stop supporting these crimes by using fiat, paying taxes, using their smart tech - phones, credit cards etc. Most won't do it, but they should.

The hidden hand behind government is the leading cause of death, they are committing every crime imaginable under the sun. The conspiracy is so large & so vast that most can't comprehend it.

They're basically lying about everything. Only you can figure it out though, no one can tell you. Like Morpheus said: No one can tell you what the Matrix is.

Why should people have to prove their innocence to corrupted state officials?

You remind me of COVID fanatics: everyone is guilty (virus transmitter), unless proven innocent (via a COVID test).

No, fuck them, I have nothing to prove (I don't even use mixers, but I don't care if people wanna use them or not).

Hell, some people even pay exorbitant fees (up to 83 BTC) to clear the money trail. Would I do it? No. Is it risky in case it goes to a pool you don't control? Yes (unless you control the majority of the hashrate).

People can do whatever they want, as long as it follows BTC mainnet rules. Deal with it.

So , what is in bold shows that there are on the one side criminal funds and on the other side their exit liquidity from "privacy seekers" .
Good luck to the second group proving who they actually are and that they've done this just to enhance their privacy . By anonymizing transactions you just flush to the toilet any evidence you have to prove your innocence .  

you quoted a section to make it look like mixing is fine.. but you missed a crucial part


they also said

Well, with the recent events with Sinbad mixer, we've got a statement of the Fiscal Information and Investigation Service of the Netherlands in which they supported what is written in a topic title: Bitcoin mixing is not a criminal activity per se:


So we can suppose that the government of the Netherlands sees the difference between mixing bitcoins for own security and safety and mixing bitcoins for some criminal purposes.

The first thing is that Wikipedia is not an authentic source of information because every person can upload their suggestion or views on Wikipedia and that does not mean that a thing that is prohibited for them would be illegal for all the persons and in every state. There is a religion where gambling is prohibited but it's only for the belivers of that religion,  the rest can do it.

This is a mentality that shows how much they are in opposition to Bitcoin. Bitcoin mixing is a tool that some people use just to hide their identity. There are some illegal activities but that does not mean that it is spreading allowing criminal activities.  The ratio of money laundering and bitcoin mixing is like 3/100 which is very rare and more activities are occurring in government affairs than this money laundering using bitcoin,  but the Thing is that they want to find a route to ban bitcoin on the wish of the elite classes bankers.

Main problem is, as I said, that you can't be sure that you'll get no problems if you'll try to stay in unclear boundaries. Detecting mixing usage is a matter of probability: maybe some transaction is a result of mixing and maybe not. You can think that you reduce your risks in interacting with a centralized service and in fact they will react the opposite. If the rules and criteria were clear, it probably helped real criminals, but it could ease the life for law-abiding users as well. But many who get blocked accounts sometimes for a single p2p transaction or payment in address of some small shop, show that any interaction with a centralized financial (and not only) service is risky. Any. And everyone should think by himself how to reduce his own risks.

Saying that you didn't interact with some exact names of services probably can help if you'll get to the court, but I guess you'll can provide all data in there to show you have nothing illegal in your transactions. But many problems with centralized services appear when you have no plans on spending your time to go to court. And they don't really care... They use other criteria, which they don't disclose to us.


Improving service for the benefit of a customer is always good, I see no reason to dispute that.