bitcoin-trader.biz - page 14. | Bitcointalksearch.org

sunny1

sr. member

Activity: 276

Merit: 250

Quote from: Digicoinz on October 21, 2014, 05:34:22 AM

I'm not saying i'm 100% right, but either way, it would be a long drawn out process, IF they get caught at all.

so until then, let's see what happens.

If they are Russians, like most HYIP operators, it is very unlikely that they got ever caught and charged. They know how to hide their asses and Russia is notorious for not investigate such crimes.

Digicoinz

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 100

I'm not saying i'm 100% right, but either way, it would be a long drawn out process, IF they get caught at all.

so until then, let's see what happens.

Grinder

legendary

Activity: 1284

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Digicoinz on October 21, 2014, 05:15:51 AM

yes, but if we the citizens bring a suit against them the burden is on us not them to prove what they were doing.

If you were right nobody would be convicted of running a ponzi, because it's always impossible to prove without looking at the records of the accused party. However, lots of cases against ponzies have been won, so I have to conclude that you are wrong. Running illegally by not having a licence or ridiculous TOSes certainly won't change this.

Digicoinz

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 100

yes, but if we the citizens bring a suit against them the burden is on us not them to prove what they were doing. And what the site says, is just words, the only thing that will hold up in court is evidence of those transactions of trading. the site's words itself would have no muster, on the internet you basically can say anything you want. and they weren't some officially licensed business, which really brings a whole other point of whether they required a license in the first place if they strictly ran the operation online, and what laws that falls under. furthermore, i believe their terms of service covers them from this very situation that occured.

TOS laws are binding, so when you created the account you agree to those terms, not much you can argue at that point.

Grinder

legendary

Activity: 1284

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Digicoinz on October 21, 2014, 04:15:07 AM

Actually BT didn't promise profits either, nor was anything indicated on their site that made anyone 100% sure it was a ponzi or hyip(the contact page specifically stressed they are not a hyip)(that makes for an extra hurdle in a legal setting to prove otherwise).

Actually, anyone with a clue will find it proven beyond reasonable doubt that this is a ponzi just by looking at the site and it's claims. Then it becomes BT's job to prove that they are not a ponzi and actually did trade. This would be trivial to a legitimate business, because there would be tons of records about trades in their accounts on all the exchanges they would have used.

Digicoinz

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 100

Actually BT didn't promise profits either, nor was anything indicated on their site that made anyone 100% sure it was a ponzi or hyip(the contact page specifically stressed they are not a hyip)(that makes for an extra hurdle in a legal setting to prove otherwise).

in fact there's still no actual evidence of that. because we don't have the actual proof of how profits were made and/or if they were operating as a ponzi. Only thing we do know is when we sent our money to the site (i.e. in bitcoins) is that at the end of each day we saw a return.

But nobody knows exactly how that profit was made, except by the word of the website that they were doing arbitrage trading.

Just my observation of the matter.

Puppet

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1040

Quote from: Digicoinz on October 21, 2014, 12:35:35 AM

hell in that case, everybody that wins a lottery ticket (powerball, etc) should pay all the money back to the ppl that "invested" their dollars into the tickets they bought in the hopes of winning the jackpot lmao

either way, that's never gonna happen. and everybody knows it.

Dont be an idiot. No one who bought a lottery ticket was promised profits.

As for clawbacks never gonna happen, I wouldnt bet on it. As an example:
http://www.ponziclawbacks.com/2014/03/06/zeek-rewards-ponzi-scheme-clawback/

I certainly hope it gets to that. Many of the investors in this knew it was a ponzi, but gambled they could get out in time. If it becomes clear to them that even if they manage to get out in time, their profits can still be confiscated, these ponzi's wouldnt get very far anymore.

ranlo

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1007

Quote from: pawlo74 on October 21, 2014, 01:57:23 AM

Quote from: fingertoe11 on October 21, 2014, 12:40:54 AM

Quote from: Digicoinz on October 21, 2014, 12:35:35 AM

hell in that case, everybody that wins a lottery ticket (powerball, etc) should pay all the money back to the ppl that "invested" their dollars into the tickets they bought in the hopes of winning the jackpot lmao

either way, that's never gonna happen. and everybody knows it.

Of course there is an exception for Government sponsored Ponzi's ;-)

If we do find Mr. Carley, and get all of his stolen holdings It will not be even close to enough to make the biggest losers whole -- The money is upline.. Harsh truth..

It is what it is.

If we do find Mr. Carley, me personally, I don't want my money back. I want him in jail.

I think money should be the first thing to go for. Criminal proceedings should be after. The reason for this is simple: the guy takes, say $3m (this is assuming the 20k+ BTC he supposedly has is only 2/7 his and the rest belongs to others in on the scam). He goes to jail for, say 5 years (I don't think situations like this give too long). He leaves and now he has $3m. That's being paid almost $1m a year just for going to jail.

You take the finances away. You liquidate his holdings. Then if he goes to jail, he leaves with nothing. That means the ONLY reward he got from the scam was jail time -- not free money.

pawlo74

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: fingertoe11 on October 21, 2014, 12:40:54 AM

Quote from: Digicoinz on October 21, 2014, 12:35:35 AM

hell in that case, everybody that wins a lottery ticket (powerball, etc) should pay all the money back to the ppl that "invested" their dollars into the tickets they bought in the hopes of winning the jackpot lmao

either way, that's never gonna happen. and everybody knows it.

Of course there is an exception for Government sponsored Ponzi's ;-)

If we do find Mr. Carley, and get all of his stolen holdings It will not be even close to enough to make the biggest losers whole -- The money is upline.. Harsh truth..

It is what it is.

If we do find Mr. Carley, me personally, I don't want my money back. I want him in jail.

rhader

member

Activity: 109

Merit: 10

Quote from: ?? on ??

In this list are the losses.
ML= Money Lost; MS = Money Sent; MR = Money Recovered
ML = MS - MR

icecreamgenius = $40k
joystickj = $37k
Casimir1904 = $25k
jimmad13 = $24k
timothyvail = $20k
varChar = $14.5k
pawlo74 = $12k
c0c0 = $10k
Karsten Holland = $8760
tonyca = 5964.1$
Centaurus = $5k
justGotConned (Jeebs007) = $4.1k
tuktukracer = $3k
proximator = $2.4K
Attie707 = $2k
aerensoy = $2k
ranlo = $1.8k
Forgaria = 1578$
zwickl = $1.3k
puma1888 = $1.2k
Mr_River_x = $0.9K

Add 2.7k for me. 4 btcs.

fingertoe11

newbie

Activity: 57

Merit: 0

Quote from: Digicoinz on October 21, 2014, 12:35:35 AM

hell in that case, everybody that wins a lottery ticket (powerball, etc) should pay all the money back to the ppl that "invested" their dollars into the tickets they bought in the hopes of winning the jackpot lmao

either way, that's never gonna happen. and everybody knows it.

Of course there is an exception for Government sponsored Ponzi's ;-)

If we do find Mr. Carley, and get all of his stolen holdings It will not be even close to enough to make the biggest losers whole -- The money is upline.. Harsh truth..

It is what it is.

Digicoinz

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 100

hell in that case, everybody that wins a lottery ticket (powerball, etc) should pay all the money back to the ppl that "invested" their dollars into the tickets they bought in the hopes of winning the jackpot lmao

either way, that's never gonna happen. and everybody knows it.

fingertoe11

newbie

Activity: 57

Merit: 0

Quote from: nrd525 on October 21, 2014, 12:03:28 AM

No, I'm referring to customers. They are legally responsible to return their so-called "profits". The Madoff case is a great example of this. Lawyers are going after the customers who made money.

This is correct --- Much of the missing money is most likely in the pockets of the early investors. I suspect of all the money put in, Mr. Carley probably took off with 35 or 40% or so -- the rest went to cash-outs paid to customers.. The shares bought in Feb earned 80 cents on the dollar and the shares bought more recently paid 65 cents on the dollars. Some investors re-upped all of their so called "earnings", but many took the money, perhaps leaving their principal in to keep on earning.

There are clawback provisions in the US laws that can make take away ponzi scam winnings from those who made money and give it back to those who invested later..

Playing Ponzi's is illegal, and ignorance doesn't excuse one from the ramifications -- Particularly if you came out ahead at the expense of others.

Digicoinz

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 100

i'm guessing you weren't one of the ppl that lost money to this hyip, otherwise i doubt you'd be saying that.

nrd525

legendary

Activity: 1867

Merit: 1023

No, I'm referring to customers. They are legally responsible to return their so-called "profits". The Madoff case is a great example of this. Lawyers are going after the customers who made money.

Digicoinz

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 100

you referring to the people that operated BT?

nrd525

legendary

Activity: 1867

Merit: 1023

I'd also like to see a list of people who have made money from this scam who can be sued to return it to those who lost.

fingertoe11

newbie

Activity: 57

Merit: 0

Quote from: pawlo74 on October 20, 2014, 06:57:34 PM

Quote from: Centaurus on October 20, 2014, 06:15:46 PM

Quote from: btloser on October 20, 2014, 11:24:55 AM

Hi all

I'm another loser on BT - $1280. If you could add me to the list it would be much appreciated.

An interesting observation - I tried to unsubscribe to the newsletter using the link in the original the sign-up email it took me to

http://email.bitcoin-trader.biz/ which is actually http://www.mailgun.com/ so it would appear Mr Carley had an account there... they are in the San Francisco.

I guess we will all at some point be asked to provide proof of what was lost - lucky for me I took screenshots - has everyone else done the same?

Thanks

I don't have screen shots,
Mr. pawlo74 realy said to us take the screenshots, but as I was doing many tests at the university, then I lost the time.
But I think that the transactions codes are incontestable proofs, and I have all codes of my transactions.

Centaurus that's not a problem at all we all have tons of confirmation mails though.

Bitcoin Trader - New Pending E-Wallet Fund Created

[email protected]

Hello Pawel

A new pending E-Wallet fund has been created. Once we confirm that we have received the funds, they will automatically be added to your E-Wallet.

Transaction ID: #16384
Date: Oct 7th, 2014 @ 09:41 am
Amount: $xx.xx
Fees: $0.00
Processor: Bitcoin
Processor Account: 14cu9dPmDwaWVmicZipL5Ex5VcM3SzosWi

Thank You,
Bitcoin Trader

I believe those emails are DKIM signed -- given the whole header, a professional ought to be able to verify that the email has not been tampered with.

Centaurus

member

Activity: 110

Merit: 10

In this list are the losses.
ML= Money Lost; MS = Money Sent; MR = Money Recovered
ML = MS - MR

icecreamgenius = $40k
joystickj = $37k
Casimir1904 = $25k
jimmad13 = $24k
timothyvail = $20k
varChar = $14.5k
pawlo74 = $12k
c0c0 = $10k
Karsten Holland = $8760
tonyca = $5964.1
Centaurus = $5k
justGotConned (Jeebs007) = $4.1k
tuktukracer = $3k
proximator = $2.4K
Attie707 = $2k
aerensoy = $2k
ranlo = $1.8k
Forgaria = 1578$
zwickl = $1.3k
btloser = $1280
tywe = $1,230.95
puma1888 = $1.2k
Digicoinz = $1.1k
Mr_River_x = $0.9K

pawlo74

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: Centaurus on October 20, 2014, 06:15:46 PM

Quote from: btloser on October 20, 2014, 11:24:55 AM

Hi all

I'm another loser on BT - $1280. If you could add me to the list it would be much appreciated.

An interesting observation - I tried to unsubscribe to the newsletter using the link in the original the sign-up email it took me to

http://email.bitcoin-trader.biz/ which is actually http://www.mailgun.com/ so it would appear Mr Carley had an account there... they are in the San Francisco.

I guess we will all at some point be asked to provide proof of what was lost - lucky for me I took screenshots - has everyone else done the same?

Thanks

I don't have screen shots,
Mr. pawlo74 realy said to us take the screenshots, but as I was doing many tests at the university, then I lost the time.
But I think that the transactions codes are incontestable proofs, and I have all codes of my transactions.

Centaurus that's not a problem at all we all have tons of confirmation mails though.

Bitcoin Trader - New Pending E-Wallet Fund Created

[email protected]

Hello Pawel

A new pending E-Wallet fund has been created. Once we confirm that we have received the funds, they will automatically be added to your E-Wallet.

Transaction ID: #16384
Date: Oct 7th, 2014 @ 09:41 am
Amount: $xx.xx
Fees: $0.00
Processor: Bitcoin
Processor Account: 14cu9dPmDwaWVmicZipL5Ex5VcM3SzosWi

Thank You,
Bitcoin Trader

Topic: bitcoin-trader.biz - page 14. (Read 203880 times)