Topic: Bitcoin Vs Monero - Privacy as the world becomes more dystopian (Read 1944 times)

What if you do everything right as above. You make an online purchase but your delivery address is included in transaction. Can't they just connect beginning & final transaction. Sure it'll take them a bit to work out, but that black box you're referring to is still transparent in a block explorer. Sure, if you buy non-KYC Bitcoin you're sweet. there's plausible deniability on how or when it was acquired.

If you use Monero, the black box in the middle isn't transparent. so they can't connect the beginning and final transaction.

Almost everyday I'm watching them shadow ban Monero. EU banning anon wallets, Google flagging monero wallets as dangerous.

They can't flat out ban Monero as it would only attract more users. Monero is #1 underground currency.

Google just added blockchain surveillance for Bitcoin & altcoins. The cabal (j's) are coming for privacy in 2024, they need to launch CBDC soon before too many people wake up, probably on the back of some crisis so people will adopt it.

IMO, Monero will be around as long as internet stays up/people can still route around the dystopian surveillance grid

Picture coinjoin as a black box, where coins enter and leave the box as new coins. Let's make the hypothesis that each of the inputs is equally probable to create each of the outputs for the sake of simplicity (just like in this whirlpool coinjoin).

You see, you're right in the sense that all of the inputs have a slight connection with all of the outputs, but that's not the point. The point is that you can't match inputs with outputs, to de-anonymize the coinjoined outputs. Blockchain analysis is incapable to connect the dots, because first and foremost it relies on guesswork, and secondly good software (like Sparrow with Whirlpool) comes with anonymization techniques that hide IP address, OS, and other fingerprints, uses Tor etc.

The way I understand it (& I'm no expert). You can Coinjoin all you want, but if the final destination links to you in anyway - IP address, name, address, browser, operating system, patterns etc. all the Coinjoin is useless because government blockchain analysis can connect the dots (for e.g). If you Coinjoin plus Lightning or Coinjoin plus Monero, it's much harder to connect start to finish. Unless you've bought or acquired your BTC P2P without KYC, then it's exponentially harder to track. Most people screwed this up though.

In summary, Coinjoin is only good in one direction, unless you have bought non-KYC BTC.

That has nothing to do with Bitcoin's security. The network is the most secure comparably to every other cryptocurrency, with an All Time High of 673.8 EH/s hashrate.

... and why is that exactly? First things first, nobody controls the network. So, it isn't a regular, centralized shitcoin that the authorities can just shut down. Governments have tried breaking the privacy techniques of Monero and haven't succeeded once since the last big update (RingCT). The Proof-of-Work algorithm used (RandomX) and the overall stance of the community regarding it, is discouraging the development of ASICs, so it is even more decentralized than Bitcoin in a way.

Needless to say that if Monero's privacy is compromised voluntarily, it stops serving a purpose.

• Silk road wasn't decentralized.
• Silk road was operating illegally.

Well said just as tho you've said all my thoughts on this issue, I've not used monero but I've been a fan and It's a coin that I consider using something although not to store but anytime I would like to do a private transaction.

Bitcoin and monero should not be compared, there serve different purpose and have different strengths, bitcoin security has been compromised a bit since online exchanges appeared to be the most commonly used and there would not fail to deliver you information to the government to save their ass, unless your doing your transactions off exchanges.

I can't advise anyone to invest in monero but you can sure use it when you want to keep your privacy secured.


IMO I monero starts chasing mass adoption we might have to compromise this amazing privacy that we are getting from it, remember the case of the silk road market place and how so many illegal activities where done through it and this might also be a case for monero, government doesn't like anything that there are not in control of

There isn't the reason to stop providing services like XMR if they're being used by good users or bad users. It's known good ppl use banks for their needs so bad ppl use banks for theirs. We aren't debating closing down banks because of good users or bad users but when it's about crypto govt's want to take control.

What defines a bad user though? and can you trust a central point of authority to enforce what is moral or immoral?

I would say a lot of the "bad users" you're referring to aren't actually that bad. The only thing that is truly immoral is harming another. The law will say otherwise, because the system protects the worst kind of criminals, who perpetrate war crimes, sex trafficking of minors, ritualistic blood sacrifice, terrorism,  - to name a few. They've just changed the wording of their crimes and brainwashed society to believe it. The ones who run this world are doing the worst crimes and that's why people like Assange are locked up. Those who speak truth are silenced. killed, imprisioned, "suicided".

A lot of the privacy activists have their morals intact. I wouldn't allow law enforcement or blockchain experts to tell me what is moral. most blockchain experts are scammers and law enforcement - well if you've been paying attention, they would beat people to the ground during the plandemic if you didn't wear a mask, for a virus that's never been proven to exist. they coerced a vaccination that's killed millions & that is just the tip of the iceberg. The police clearly work for the politicians, they don't represent the people. If you actually take the time to think, you'll realize everything single thing in this system is immoral. There is no law.

They'll tell you you're a crazy tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist...

This is the mentality of most and I get it.

"I'm just a drop in the ocean" "I've got nothing to hide"

The dystopia is advancing at a rapid rate. Soon you'll need to buy real meat on dark net markets if you don't want to eat ze bugs. Soon you'll need regular poison jabs to get your UBI.

To me, privacy will be life or death. If you want to live a healthy and free life, you're going to have to be like neo and navigate the matrix like a ninja. Or you're going to have to leave the system entirely/walk into the forest & start a new life.

Hopefully I'm wrong, Hopefully people find themselves again and start acting like humans, the world can change so fast if people started doing the right thing. Almost no one is a good person, because everything in this system is immoral. We're the problem and the solution.

I honestly agree with you. Monero will be there for us, for a long time (I could say forever, but anyway). Monero persists some amazing features and it is a brilliant cryptocurrency privacy-wise.

But if we dream of such a cryptocurrency to become widely adopted and more and more people to start using it, then I seriously doubt about it. The problem lies in getting higher adoption.

Most people follow the dark path created by governments and the media. They will not be able to escape the lie they have been immersed in and I take for granted that they will follow the logic that monero exists only for criminals. Simply because the media and governments say so. Not to mention the unimaginably strong bond of the average person with the modern economic system (banks, loans, FIAT money, inflation, etc.).

Monero price's going to take a swipe loss if 1 or 2 big exchanges to delist it. How's it going to affect SEC in 1 or 2 years if they'll allow American licence operated exchanges to receive deposits connected to XMR BTC swaps. It'll have a long life if decentralised ops exist because ppl didn't stop using it.

Bisq is one to consider

Which are the top three DEX exchanges having higher Monero(XMR) trading volumes?

I sold my Dash when Monero got delisted. Just saying. Monero was delisted after I sold that first.

Cheers. I get my beer and then a shower. At a loss. Unreported. Notch notch.

This is what makes Monero stand still and strong even if largest Exchanges remove it.  There are a lot of Decentralized opportunities to convert Monero into other Cryptocurrencies.  There is even Atomic Swap possibility between Monero and Bitcoin.  There will in consequence ALWAYS be an option and a Market for it.  I honestly doubt it is going any where unless Europe or The United States ban it.  Even then, underground it will continue to thrive in my opinion.  You can ban Open Source legally.  But you can not stop Monero nor can you find its users easily.

If Coins like XRP get in this same mud Monero is in, it would die quickly and painfully.  Look at Monero however.  Every body hates on it all of a sudden but it is still on the rise.  Monero simply can not die for now.

Monero's good because it's doing a job. Govt's want it delisted in exchanges they'll give licences to because they don't want privacy coins used. XMR's only useful if you've got markets to to sell or exchange it that's why they'll try to drive it out of business.

But this is also what could break Bitcoin in the future.

I understand entirely your point and you do have one.  But then let me flip the situation over and think about it differently.

Since Bitcoin offers a way to Privacy for those who seek it but also a way to de conspire most Transactions of the people who do not care or of the people who make mistakes along the road to Privacy.  Is it not safe to assume there is no risk here for us who want Privacy?  If you can differentiate between what is a de conspired Transaction and a 'Private' one, then the 'Private' ones can easily become targets.

By this I mean precisely what Centralized Exchanges do about UTXOs coming from Mixers and Coin Joins.  If I can get a ban hammer and suspect flag for spending my 'Private' Bitcoin then I think this can easily break Bitcoin and make it similar to what we know CBDCs will be like.  Lack of Privacy through induced fear.

On the other hand.  Monero offers Privacy by default.  By using Monero no body knows any thing about any Transaction.  You can spend and receive and no body knows shit.

This gives it a HUGE advantage.  The only way Monero can be broken is through huge crack downs and a big ban hammer.  Will this really happen?  Will we really listen to a ban hammer?  If Monero gets the hammer.  Is that not a dystopia?  If yes then who the hell will listen to any thing any more.  It would mean any thing we will try to do privately equals suspicion.  It means Monero will thrive in the underground.  Which also means the Fiat we know today will be cash less too and the only option to stay private is by using Monero.

I am split 50 and 50 on this situation.  Truth is that we are living a time surrounded by uncertainty.  You never know what comes next and unfortunately it looks like only worse and worse situations and decisions are made.  Monero is in my eyes never going to die because they just can not kill it.  If they do not know and can not find out who is using it then there is no target to attack.

yes a small percentage of society are criminals, however most are just trying to pay their bills are look after their family

the real issue is a group of super rich pedophiles who run the world - they commit every crime under the sun and get away with it. they have weaponized everything. wars, money laundering, terrorism, theft, extortion, rape...everything, at least 17m people dead from the vaccine. they evidence is irrefutable.

surveillance is one of their main weapons of control, privacy coins like monero is massive - that's why binance, largest centralized exchange just delisted it. they're slowly coming for your privacy. 2020 during lockdowns lots of 5G infrastructure went up. no extra speed. it's for an AI prison. crazy conspiracy theory until you realize it's the truth.

Monero's main problem is its main feature. The powers that be simply won't allow a system with total privacy, because govts and law enforcement agencies need SOME ability to track criminals, terrorists, etc. Bitcoin, being pseudonymous allows the public monetary privacy if you put in the work to do things privately, but they can still track transactions through centralized exchanges, so there is still that ability to try to track and stop criminals.

Basically, total privacy is a safe haven for bad people. The powers of the world won't make it easy to use that sort of thing so Monero will never get popular enough with average people to get widely used.

While Bitcoin has enough privacy to be useful for the average person, but not so much privacy that its a safe haven for bad people. It's pretty much the perfect threading of the needle between those two things. Though we do indeed need more ability for privacy in Bitcoin for the average person through stuff like decentralized exchanges and whatnot. Right now its actually TOO hard to gain privacy with Bitcoin because centralized exchanges are the arteries of the ecosystem and they of course have to follow what the govt tells them to do. Decentralized exchanges need to gain a lot more volume to make them useful. Once we have a healthy mix of CEXs and DEXs for Bitcoin I think we'll have that best case scenario where people who want privacy can have it, but people who are using bitcoin in a bunch of illegal operations probably won't be able to retain perfect privacy under a lot of law enforcement scrutiny.

It's the old play of ideals vs the reality of what society needs. Monero leans too much on the ideal and not enough on what society needs, while Bitcoin is probably the best possible split of both those things. Hardcore privacy idealists will like Monero more, realists will like Bitcoin more. And, obviously, there's orders of magnitude more realists and just everyday people than there are hardcore privacy idealists, so Monero will remain a niche coin for them.

Monero is pretty much the only cryptocurrency besides Bitcoin that I think can realistically be called an actually currency, but it will remain in its niche and so will never be a very useful currency. While Bitcoin will continue to grow in to the world's alternate to national currencies and become humanity's global currency.