Bitcoin Vs Monero - Privacy as the world becomes more dystopian - page 2.

apogio

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Quote from: cryptosize on February 15, 2024, 08:37:18 PM

And please stop assuming that it's possible to shut down decentralized, permissionless protocols, because it's not.

Nobody can shut down Monero even if the price drops all the way down to $1 or even $0.01. OTC trades will still exist, DEX too.

I didn't mean it this way. The only way to shut them down would be to permanently shut down the internet. But even then, Blockstream has developed the Satellite which transmits the blockchain from space, without needing internet. That's unnecessary of course, because nobody can shut down the internet and even if they did, they would damage the current financial system too. Which of course is not their intention. I don't know who this "their" refers to, but you got the point.

As far as Monero is concerned, the only problem with the constant exchange price drop is that consumer goods are valued in FIAT, which is then converted to Monero, if you want to find a merchant that sells for Monero. So, they suffer from that. But if you can find a merchant that wants 1 XMR for product A, and doesn't care how much 1 XMR is worth in FIAT terms, then you can be confident that this merchant has deeply understood the value of Monero and Bitcoin. They are both P2P cash systems and should be treated as such!

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on February 15, 2024, 04:42:53 PM

Monero's recent delisting on a major exchange ( I think it was Binance, but I could be wrong) is proof of why in my humble opinion should NEVER be made entirely anonymous. This would end bitcoins chance at ever becoming a world wide currency system. Governments already have a hard enough time accepting it as is, if it were to completely become anonymous, making the blockchain private..nearly every government in the world would shut it down. More countries haven't shut down the use of Monero in their nation because it's not real popular. I could go on and on about this, but this is my quick synopsis.

You cannot shut down Monero or Bitcoin, just like you cannot shut down BitTorrent or Tor or any other decentralized protocol running on the permissionless TCP/IP.

What you're talking about is delisting certain cryptocurrencies from CEX and ETF custodians such as BlackRock, which would remove USD liquidity from the ecosystem and cause downwards pressure on the fiat price/valuation. Is that correct?

Quote from: apogio on February 15, 2024, 04:50:26 PM

Do you think Satoshi chose to make Bitcoin pseudonymous and not anonymous for this reason? I mean it could be an argument, that if Bitcoin had Monero's features, then the governments would want to shut it down instead of surveilling it.

Satoshi wanted to implement XMR features on BTC, long before XMR was born:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9074

Maybe he didn't have enough time, maybe not enough programming expertise, who knows... it's endless speculation at this point.

Did Satoshi care about BlackRock's ETF? Most likely not.

And please stop assuming that it's possible to shut down decentralized, permissionless protocols, because it's not.

Nobody can shut down Monero even if the price drops all the way down to $1 or even $0.01. OTC trades will still exist, DEX too.

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on February 15, 2024, 04:42:53 PM

This would end bitcoins chance at ever becoming a world wide currency system.

I think that Bitcoin's optional privacy is a good selling point from a government's perspective. However, I am not convinced Satoshi deliberately did this. I mean, he reinvented money as concept, denationalized it; made money that is impossible for the state to intervene. He pretty much raised the middle finger to the entire financial and banking system. It's quite hard to buy that he was afraid. Anything but that. If he had thought Bitcoin's privacy wasn't good enough, or had known how to implement better privacy techniques, I believe he would have done it.

Quote from: apogio on February 15, 2024, 04:50:26 PM

What do you mean by that? I am not sure I understood. Unless you meant that governments care about not allowing merchants' and customers' being private, so they can always keep an eye on their trades and their identities.

That's what I meant. Government cares about invading into everyone's privacy more than anyone. It sort of survives by that.

apogio

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 15, 2024, 03:59:29 PM

whereas the government cares more than anyone about the merchants' and customers' privacy.

What do you mean by that? I am not sure I understood. Unless you meant that governments care about not allowing merchants' and customers' being private, so they can always keep an eye on their trades and their identities.

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on February 15, 2024, 04:42:53 PM

Monero's recent delisting on a major exchange ( I think it was Binance, but I could be wrong) is proof of why in my humble opinion should NEVER be made entirely anonymous. This would end bitcoins chance at ever becoming a world wide currency system.

Do you think Satoshi chose to make Bitcoin pseudonymous and not anonymous for this reason? I mean it could be an argument, that if Bitcoin had Monero's features, then the governments would want to shut it down instead of surveilling it.

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Monero's recent delisting on a major exchange ( I think it was Binance, but I could be wrong) is proof of why in my humble opinion should NEVER be made entirely anonymous. This would end bitcoins chance at ever becoming a world wide currency system. Governments already have a hard enough time accepting it as is, if it were to completely become anonymous, making the blockchain private..nearly every government in the world would shut it down. More countries haven't shut down the use of Monero in their nation because it's not real popular. I could go on and on about this, but this is my quick synopsis.

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XMR is far better than Bitcoin if privacy is your goal. I just worry about the likelihood that it stays around for too much longer. Governments have been relentlessly pressuring exchanges to delist it & most have obliged. It’s so good at maintaining your privacy that its strength is its downfall. It’s great for privacy if your only plan is to use it as a medium of exchange. As an investment or long term hodl it’s awful & Bitcoin is far better.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: apogio on February 15, 2024, 03:46:32 PM

Quote from: DapanasFruit on February 15, 2024, 07:07:58 AM

The only "disadvantage" is that many governments are wary of Monero as this is something that is truly beyond their eyes to see.

This is an "advantage" as far as I am concerned.

It is a little bit of both, in my opinion. Sure, it is an advantage in the sense that they have even less control over the network. But, it's also a disadvantage, because it cannot let itself spread in the same variance as with Bitcoin.

Merchants and customers usually don't care about their privacy, whereas the government cares more than anyone about the merchants' and customers' privacy. So, there's not enough resistance from both sides. You can argue the same about Bitcoin, but the difference is that it's surveilled by the governments (and even that way, it's been attacked constantly, imagine).

apogio

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Quote from: DapanasFruit on February 15, 2024, 07:07:58 AM

The only "disadvantage" is that many governments are wary of Monero as this is something that is truly beyond their eyes to see.

This is an "advantage" as far as I am concerned. Governments can't control Bitcoin, nor Monero. The latter is definetely more private, having implemented both stealth addresses and ring signatures. To tell you the truth, I believe Monero serves its purpose very well. It's a private currency that can be used as a medium of exchange. Bitcoin, on the other hand serves a great purpose as a store of wealth, since it is more scarce and has limited supply. I love bitcoin and I use it for payments, even though I see a lot of hate regarding its higher fees. But I use it and I encourage everyone to use it.

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Quote from: barto123 on November 21, 2023, 08:04:43 AM

I love bitcoin, however i see privacy as the #1 concern going forward. Monero is quietly gaining lots of adoption on websites, services, exchanges, dark net markets etc. Most of the truth & freedom movement appear to recommend it over Bitcoin. Also scaling is another issue, Bitcoin fees are 1000x Monero fees. Thoughts please. I want some honest opinions here.

There is no question that on the area of privacy, Monero got it over Bitcoin and that is why organization and people who are really concerned on this factor can be choosing to use Monero rather than any other coins including BTC for that matter. Being a privacy coin, Monero is on the top of the list and can continue to be one as such for many long years. The only "disadvantage" is that many governments are wary of Monero as this is something that is truly beyond their eyes to see. Now, I have no problem with Monero though I am not one of its holders nor did I use it to transfer or buying anything. What is important is that people got choices according to the specifications of their situation.

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Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on November 29, 2023, 01:07:36 AM

Quote from: barto123 on November 21, 2023, 10:21:04 PM

I don't even use CEX's so I didn't consider even them lol. I meant on swap sites, P2P platforms (Bisq), DEX's, atomic swaps etc

Indeed Bitcoin is more like gold SoV and Monero is more cash. Lightning adoption isn't going anywhere by the looks of it. Coinjoin is expensive in high fee environment as and not really that private. In the mean time Monero is cheap & easy & does give you ample privacy. government don't like it, so there's your proof it works.

Daily transaction count for Monero hasn't changed much in the last 3 years. I'm not sure its adoption is going anywhere either.
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/monero-transactions.html

For every new merchant that accepts Monero I see two or three that accept Lightning. This is purely anecdotal so I'm not sure which one has the advantage.

Quote from: barto123 on November 21, 2023, 08:04:43 AM

Monero is quietly gaining lots of adoption on websites, services, exchanges, dark net markets etc.

Node count has passed BTC and mining hash rate is growing rapidly as you don't need an Asics, just your PC.

Node count isn't a very reliable measure because you can cherry pick whichever source is more favorable to your argument. MoneroHash says Monero has 3k nodes while Monero.Fail says it's 22k. For Bitcoin it's 16k nodes according to Bitnodes and 63k according to Luke Dashjr's website.

At the start of scamdemic, Monero started to get more adoption - have zoom out further than 3 years.

I've been in Bitcoin since 2015, there's been so much more Monero discussion last couple years. A lot of people realizing they need more privacy as this digital prison comes online.

Bitcoiners must know it's not private enough. Almost all my coinjoined UTXO's have been censored lately. Yes I do try to use Bisq where I can.

I was hopeful for lightning - just checked 1ml.com - looks stagnant IMO. I remain hopeful, I just prefer Monero at this stage.

Yes, you might be right about node count. However Monero people are similar to Bitcoiner's. A lot of us run nodes. I'd say the number is up there regardless.

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Quote from: ABCbits on December 27, 2023, 04:44:42 AM

Thanks for the link. Although it's not directly comparable since bitnodes.io show number of total reachable nodes in last few hours while monero.fail shows total reachable nodes in last 2 weeks.

Perhaps a more fair comparison would be against bitnodes' Global Node list.

Quote from: Synchronice on December 27, 2023, 05:48:53 AM

Monero is the Tor of currencies while other altcoins act like a VPN.

I wouldn't say altcoins are like a VPN at all. Many have even worse privacy than bitcoin does. Just take the biggest altcoin Ethereum as an example - they use an account based model rather than an UTXO based model, meaning all your ETH transactions (and all your stupid token transactions too) are all intrinsically linked together.

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Quote from: NotATether on November 21, 2023, 08:13:11 AM

Quote from: barto123 on November 21, 2023, 08:04:43 AM

Monero is quietly gaining lots of adoption on websites, services, exchanges, dark net markets etc.

Are you sure it is getting a lot of adoption on exchanges? Because I know there's a lot of DEXes that are supporting Monero, but it seems like centralized exchanges are rushing to drop it like a hot potato (because "money laundering" and "crime" and ... you get the idea).

If we want to protect privacy, we shouldn't use centralized exchanges, right? So, who cares?

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 21, 2023, 11:04:56 AM

I've said many times before that Monero is the only coin other than Bitcoin which I own and use, and the only altcoin I consider not to be a shitcoin. It shares many of the good things about bitcoin - decentalized, PoW, no premine, etc. - while also being far more private if used properly. I don't think it will ever replace bitcoin, but I also think it is one of the only altcoins which will continue to grow and continue to be used many years in the future.

The only reason bitcoin grows is that it is still an innovation, attracts people and it's possible for governments and financial institutes to control bitcoin by improving blockchain analysis and implementing massive KYC and making it illegal to hold Bitcoin without verifying yourself. I.E. if government can control it like your bank transactions, they'll let it's adoption to grow.
At the moment, Monero is the only solution. It's the only coin that offers everything and is still massively adopted.
Monero is the Tor of currencies while other altcoins act like a VPN.

Quote from: barto123 on November 24, 2023, 04:21:00 PM

The reason why I believe privacy is #1 concern is because the direction in which the globalists are taking the world is complete control of everything. The want to control every living thing. Sounds like a conspiracy theory until you realize they say it in plain sight.

That's not a conspiracy, that's reality. Controlled society can't do riots, can't protest. Government needs slaves, people with the lack of critical thinking. Probably soon, you won't have to study math and other subjects, your AI might do that for you but that will make average Joe dumb.

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Quote from: apogio on December 12, 2023, 09:53:05 AM

Quote from: PrivacyG on December 12, 2023, 09:48:24 AM

We have similar feelings. Knowing Bitcoin, starting to use Monero in parallel for the first time is harder than it sounds. It is not as easy as 1 2 3 for sure. If you use Dogecoin it is one thing but using Monero is different. Particularly because Monero is for PRIVACY, so more care is necessary if you want to keep it that way. Wallet is different, Transactions look different et cetera.

I hope some day some body smart enough will drop some ELI 5 type of Monero Documentation. Answering all What, How and Why questions. There are definitely a lot of things I misunderstand about Monero even if I have been using it for a very long time already.

Luckily the documentation here is good and easy to read.

But yeah Monero is superior to Doge (which I still dislike). In fact I don't like anything other than Bitcoin and Monero. The way I see it is totally privacy-centered. I want to achieve the highest privacy possible and Monero is a great asset in this regard.

Yes monero is a privacy coin and it has enough privacy to used but this coin is not much profitable. if you think only about your privacy then Monero is for you but if you think about privacy and potential profit too then Bitcoin will best. i want both so bitcoin is for me. If you want to compete between Bitcoin and Monero then Bitcoin will always be ahead in this field. Because no other coin compares to Bitcoin. so i always support bitcoin

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Quote from: barto123 on December 26, 2023, 06:22:54 AM

here's my source for node count bitcoin vs monero:

https://bitnodes.io/
https://monero.fail/map

Thanks for the link. Although it's not directly comparable since bitnodes.io show number of total reachable nodes in last few hours while monero.fail shows total reachable nodes in last 2 weeks.

Quote from: barto123 on December 26, 2023, 06:22:54 AM

yeah true, however it looks to me if monero has same TPS as bitcoin it would still be quite a lot cheaper with dynamic block sizes

I don't think dynamic block help much since what matters most is how much transaction created by Monero users.

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: barto123 on November 21, 2023, 08:04:43 AM

Monero is quietly gaining lots of adoption on websites, services, exchanges, dark net markets etc.

I'm sure it's not true for exchange (Centralized ones) since legal makes it much harder or even impossible to list Monero on their exchange.

Quote from: barto123 on November 21, 2023, 08:04:43 AM

Node count has passed BTC and mining hash rate is growing rapidly as you don't need an Asics, just your PC.

Can you share which source data you use for Monero node count?

Quote from: barto123 on November 21, 2023, 08:04:43 AM

Also scaling is another issue, Bitcoin fees are 1000x Monero fees.

But don't forget there are less TX created on Monero network compared with Bitcoin network. Monero TPS is also lower than BTC due to higher TX size and lower block size, despite lower block time.

yeah i don't even consider centralized exchanges, they will be short lived in my opinion as atomic swaps, dex's etc grow & privacy becomes more important

here's my source for node count bitcoin vs monero:

https://bitnodes.io/
https://monero.fail/map

yeah true, however it looks to me if monero has same TPS as bitcoin it would still be quite a lot cheaper with dynamic block sizes

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In case anyone is interested, here is nice discussion, in a comparative video regarding censorhip in Bitcoin versus Monero.

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Quote from: PrivacyG on December 12, 2023, 09:48:24 AM

We have similar feelings. Knowing Bitcoin, starting to use Monero in parallel for the first time is harder than it sounds. It is not as easy as 1 2 3 for sure. If you use Dogecoin it is one thing but using Monero is different. Particularly because Monero is for PRIVACY, so more care is necessary if you want to keep it that way. Wallet is different, Transactions look different et cetera.

I hope some day some body smart enough will drop some ELI 5 type of Monero Documentation. Answering all What, How and Why questions. There are definitely a lot of things I misunderstand about Monero even if I have been using it for a very long time already.

Luckily the documentation here is good and easy to read.

But yeah Monero is superior to Doge (which I still dislike). In fact I don't like anything other than Bitcoin and Monero. The way I see it is totally privacy-centered. I want to achieve the highest privacy possible and Monero is a great asset in this regard.

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Quote from: apogio on November 21, 2023, 03:27:06 PM

I have some difficulties with monero, that I think can be addressed in this topic:

We have similar feelings. Knowing Bitcoin, starting to use Monero in parallel for the first time is harder than it sounds. It is not as easy as 1 2 3 for sure. If you use Dogecoin it is one thing but using Monero is different. Particularly because Monero is for PRIVACY, so more care is necessary if you want to keep it that way. Wallet is different, Transactions look different et cetera.

I hope some day some body smart enough will drop some ELI 5 type of Monero Documentation. Answering all What, How and Why questions. There are definitely a lot of things I misunderstand about Monero even if I have been using it for a very long time already.

Quote from: apogio on November 21, 2023, 03:27:06 PM

3. I am not sure whether the variable sized blocks are good or not... I haven't come to a conclusion yet, but I would like to hear your thoughts.

Guess we will find out when Monero usage reaches what is supposed to be a maximum.

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Quote from: arabspaceship123 on December 10, 2023, 09:11:16 PM

I'd expect privacy networks to be taken away from centralised exchanges to outcast them. They'll be used but won't have activity because ppl won't be able to get fiat from centralised exchanges if they've originated from privacy networks. When ppl realise they won't have private info in centralised exchanges how many are going to use privacy networks?

In near time Monero could increase trades but we don't know if ppl will feel safe using it if they're sending exchanged crypto to centralised exchanges when they want fiat.

This has already happened for the most part. A lot of centralized exchanges have removed/dropped XMR entirely, or for most jurisdictions. While it effects liquidity, it does signify its effectiveness when it comes to privacy.

To address the second part of your post, I think many are becoming more and more fearful of centralized exchanges...some are even becoming more and more fearful of storing excess dollars. Over time, less will use CEXs for fiat related transactions, more will use DEXs for on chain trades and P2Ps if they ever need to do a fiat trade.

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I'd expect privacy networks to be taken away from centralised exchanges to outcast them. They'll be used but won't have activity because ppl won't be able to get fiat from centralised exchanges if they've originated from privacy networks. When ppl realise they won't have private info in centralised exchanges how many are going to use privacy networks?

In near time Monero could increase trades but we don't know if ppl will feel safe using it if they're sending exchanged crypto to centralised exchanges when they want fiat.

Quote from: wallet4bitcoin on December 10, 2023, 05:20:40 AM

Privacy network simply gives better edge compared to Bitcoin network. I don't consider the Monero a network that has much traction because people are silent about it. The reason for the silence is not because people don't care but because they have little or no information about transactions that goes on in there.

In no distant time, I believe that privacy netowrks like monero will gain traction and still leave its users safe and secure as the transactions can not be mirrored like it is through the Bitcoin network.

This will also make projects migrate to privacy chains and another wave of boom will emerge for them.

Topic: Bitcoin Vs Monero - Privacy as the world becomes more dystopian - page 2. (Read 1944 times)