and pcmag once claim that air-gapped devices are also not secure as we believe it was.
There is no system in the world which is 100% safe and secure and completely impervious to all attacks. However, this article makes it sound like stealing data from an air gapped machine is almost trivial, which it obviously is not. For any of these attacks to work, someone must first gain access to your airgapped computer, install malware on it, place some kind of microphone, radio receiver, or similar in the same room you would be using it, and do all this without it being noticeable. For most people who keep their airgapped device inside their locked house (as long as you are not silly enough to plug in a random USB drive someone gave you to your airgapped device), then that is next to impossible. Airgapped wallets set up properly remain very secure. 
Topic: BITCOIN WALLET - page 2. (Read 650 times)
Oh, so you're aware of all these BIG issues, yet still recommend Ledger? 
That does not mean any other hardware wallet database is perfect, anyone of the can be hacked at any time. The best is to find a way you can purchase hardware wallet in a way information you provide hardware wallet company can not be linked to your real identity. Do not be surprised if you heard the database of another hardware company is leaked, try to protect you identity yourself is the best.Only what I do not like about Ledger Nano is because it is not completely open source, its secure element which generates and store the seed phrase is close source, while many reputed members are still recommending the wallet. That is the fact that makes me prefer Trezor which is completely open source but which should be used with passphrase to make the possible physical attack not to be able to reveal your keys if possible the hardware wallet was stolen.
But, you are not wrong, more hardware wallet are recommendable but people do recommended Trezor and Ledger Nano because they are the most used and most tested for vulnerabilities.
Can you guys tell which wallet is safest according to your experience.
The wallet that the crypto community believes to be safest because they are not exposed to danger is a hardware wallet (ledger) or non-custodial open source wallet (electrum) which has already been evaluated but avoiding human error is needed to be your top priority for the safety of your wallet from online theft still lies in your hand.Ledger Nano X Battery Pandemic
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I'm aware of the NanO x problem but the ledger database leak that happened then will only expose those that purchased the ledger before the data leak
Oh, so you're aware of all these BIG issues, yet still recommend Ledger? hero member
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The wallet that the crypto community believes to be safest because they are not exposed to danger is a hardware wallet (ledger)
Danger is too broad of a term. If we are only talking about the safety of your private keys and ultimately your crypto, sure, Ledger manages to achieve that. But Ledger hasn't handled themselves properly during the database leak, so they failed to protect the privacy of their customers. They are currently failing at the production of Nano X's because too many of them have battery issues. Ledger isn't great, neither is Trezor or Electrum. Electrum is a software wallet. Although it's one of the best in its class, it's still a hot wallet (unless you are using it as a cold storage) and can't be compared to a hardware wallet or a properly airgapped device. If we talked about things that have to do with internet activities there will always be a danger involve due to inexperienced or human error and pcmag once claim that air-gapped devices are also not secure as we believe it was.
This is what I have thought about several times and what we can do now is to use one of the best wallets in there class until a total solution arrive.
The wallet that the crypto community believes to be safest because they are not exposed to danger is a hardware wallet (ledger)
Danger is too broad of a term. If we are only talking about the safety of your private keys and ultimately your crypto, sure, Ledger manages to achieve that. But Ledger hasn't handled themselves properly during the database leak, so they failed to protect the privacy of their customers. They are currently failing at the production of Nano X's because too many of them have battery issues. Ledger isn't great, neither is Trezor or Electrum. Electrum is a software wallet. Although it's one of the best in its class, it's still a hot wallet (unless you are using it as a cold storage) and can't be compared to a hardware wallet or a properly airgapped device. hero member
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Can you guys tell which wallet is safest according to your experience.
The wallet that the crypto community believes to be safest because they are not exposed to danger is a hardware wallet (ledger) or non-custodial open source wallet (electrum) which has already been evaluated but avoiding human error is needed to be your top priority for the safety of your wallet from online theft still lies in your hand.
Sad story. The lesson should be to tell people clearly (and emphasize too!) that it's completely their decision for what they do with their money, whether you do this online or in real life.
I understood this as a very important lesson, and it is important that it happened at a time when the price of BTC was around $200, and I could afford to go in the direction of compensating someone for the damage caused by insufficient knowledge and insufficient awareness of how important security is when it comes to crypto. Back then, HWs weren't as popular as they are today, and a hot wallet on a computer used for everything was an ideal target for some malware that came into possession of seed stored on PC.
Also, as I keep saying, having a hardware wallet for a hot wallet that at most is going to have $50 is just time consuming and not worth it.
I would never purchase a hardware wallet to store $50 in it if that amount is the first and last time I own Bitcoin. But if that's not the case, and you are planning to periodically increase that stash to say $100, $200, etc., it's well worth the money and the trouble. I think that if someone's first experience with Bitcoin is a positive one, that person would likely want more. Let's not forget that if Bitcoin reaches a valuation we all hope for, those initial $50 would be worth a lot more. Agree 100%, part of the issue with forums and my typing is I can put out a point and type it knowing what I am thinking but you don't. So the background is kind of missing.
So yes, if you are going to keep adding to the wallet to have it grow from $50 then $90 then $175 etc, that is one thing.
In MY view, that is NOT a hot wallet, that is a cold storage wallet. Or a 'warm' wallet.
The 'hot wallet' say the one on my phone that my signature campaign pays into, even someone as paranoid as I am has no security on it beyond a password / fingerprint.
The BTC comes in, 75% of BTC goes out just as quickly. That is what I think of as a hot wallet.
If someone is just getting into BTC and wants to get some and spend it and then get some more and spend it, IMO going hardware is just going to frustrate them.
I explain to them that it is just like cash in a regular wallet and if you do something stupid or careless with it, it's gone.
I then can tell them there are MUCH better ways to do it for long term and even 'middle term' storage. THEN I can get into the hardware, multisig, and other options and determine what works best for them.
-Dave
Also, as I keep saying, having a hardware wallet for a hot wallet that at most is going to have $50 is just time consuming and not worth it.
I would never purchase a hardware wallet to store $50 in it if that amount is the first and last time I own Bitcoin. But if that's not the case, and you are planning to periodically increase that stash to say $100, $200, etc., it's well worth the money and the trouble. I think that if someone's first experience with Bitcoin is a positive one, that person would likely want more. Let's not forget that if Bitcoin reaches a valuation we all hope for, those initial $50 would be worth a lot more.
A while ago I posted this: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/helping-usually-new-people-choose-their-wallets-5205304
And it's still valid today. It's not just what wallet but what you want to do with it, and how much is it holding, etc.
Also, as I keep saying, having a hardware wallet for a hot wallet that at most is going to have $50 is just time consuming and not worth it.
It's not a one size fits all.
-Dave
And it's still valid today. It's not just what wallet but what you want to do with it, and how much is it holding, etc.
Also, as I keep saying, having a hardware wallet for a hot wallet that at most is going to have $50 is just time consuming and not worth it.
It's not a one size fits all.
-Dave
I’m talking from personal experience where someone was very irresponsible and lost a significant amount of coins, and then I was the one who was most responsible for it - because I made someone deal with it at all - it’s that classic accusation “that you didn’t mention Bitcoin, I wouldn't lose money". I paid a loss out of my own pocket for someone not to blame me for something my whole life, but this is the last time I will allow myself something like that.
Sad story. The lesson should be to tell people clearly (and emphasize too!) that it's completely their decision for what they do with their money, whether you do this online or in real life.
I will not exaggerate if I say that from my personal experience at least 90% of people are not ready to be their own bank, and anyway they are only interested in how to profit, preferably in a very short time.
100% correct. And most people prefer to blame anybody else than themselves when something goes wrong.
I made a decision a long time ago, I will not help anyone to invest in crypto if that person does not understand some basic things before, and if they will keep their coins online or in a mobile/desktop wallet on devices they use every day for various activities. Then it's just a question of when something bad will happen, and then it's usually someone else's fault that it happened.
For newbies I lately recommend HW exactly because of this. Then the chance that the blame is on me decreases greatly.
When and if something happens is not a concern of yours.
I’m talking from personal experience where someone was very irresponsible and lost a significant amount of coins, and then I was the one who was most responsible for it - because I made someone deal with it at all - it’s that classic accusation “that you didn’t mention Bitcoin, I wouldn't lose money". I paid a loss out of my own pocket for someone not to blame me for something my whole life, but this is the last time I will allow myself something like that.
I will not exaggerate if I say that from my personal experience at least 90% of people are not ready to be their own bank, and anyway they are only interested in how to profit, preferably in a very short time.
I would still argue that from everything you mentioned, using Windows is the only acceptable thing if someone has no knowledge of Linux distros. And in most cases, the average Joe won't have any. Everything else you said, is not recommended.
But I, on the other hand, would argue that using Windows is absolutely not acceptable, that Windows is insecure, that Windows is spyware, that Windows has enormous amounts of unnecessary and non-removable bloatware filled with God-knows-what code, and so on. To me, none of the things I mentioned are acceptable. To you, using Windows is acceptable. To someone else, turning off rather than removing connectivity hardware might be acceptable. And so enters the gray area of what constitutes an airgapped wallet. Either commit to doing it all and doing it properly, or opt for a hardware wallet.It's like the old saying - Good, Cheap, Fast, pick two. In this case we would replace fast with easy. Hardware wallets are good and easy, but not cheap. Airgapped cold storage (provided you have a spare device you can use) are good and cheap, but not easy. Mobile wallets, web wallets, etc. are cheap and easy, but are not good.
Sure, but then we start getting in to gray areas...
I would still argue that from everything you mentioned, using Windows is the only acceptable thing if someone has no knowledge of Linux distros. And in most cases, the average Joe won't have any. Everything else you said, is not recommended. I would say if you can't commit (or don't have the knowledge) to set up an airgapped wallet properly, then you would be safer using a hardware wallet instead of settling for a sub-optimal airgapped set up.
That's why the most common answer to the question what type of wallet should I use is buy a hardware wallet.I made a decision a long time ago, I will not help anyone to invest in crypto if that person does not understand some basic things before, and if they will keep their coins online or in a mobile/desktop wallet on devices they use every day for various activities. Then it's just a question of when something bad will happen, and then it's usually someone else's fault that it happened.
When and if something happens is not a concern of yours. The only problem is if it's a close friend or relative and you wouldn't want them to get hurt or scammed. Even then, I would seriously advice them to reconsider what they are doing and explain what can happen to hot wallets. It ridiculous to see how people don't want to spend $100 to keep $100.000 safe... But it is indeed a very, very, very common excuse i've read many, many times from many, many people....
It has always been strange to me, especially considering that these same people are willing to pay much higher amounts when it comes to other devices such as smartphones, laptops or, say, the increasingly popular electric scooters that cost an average of around EUR 300. Someone might say that the biggest problem is that there are free solutions (desktop&mobile wallets), and I agree that people won't invest even $50 if they can get something for free - but ignorance also plays a big role here, because they don't understand the basic differences and potential risks arising from free solutions.
I made a decision a long time ago, I will not help anyone to invest in crypto if that person does not understand some basic things before, and if they will keep their coins online or in a mobile/desktop wallet on devices they use every day for various activities. Then it's just a question of when something bad will happen, and then it's usually someone else's fault that it happened.
Linux is recommended, but it's not a must.
Sure, but then we start getting in to gray areas. Linux is recommended, but Windows will do. Removing connectivity hardware is recommended, but turning it off will do. Formatting the hard drive first is recommended, but not doing it will be OK since you will be offline anyway. Encrypting your wallet is recommended, but no one will have access to it anyway so it's not necessary. And so on. Soon enough, we are left with someone just turning off their WiFi and thinking they have a safe airgapped wallet.The problem with airgapped wallets is exactly this - you can seriously mess up if you cut corners or don't really understand what you are doing. This is much harder to do with a hardware wallet. I would say if you can't commit (or don't have the knowledge) to set up an airgapped wallet properly, then you would be safer using a hardware wallet instead of settling for a sub-optimal airgapped set up.
But 3 months later they come in to complain about the fact they've lost the equivalent of $100.000 they had in their exchange "wallet" due to a hack or phishing or an exit scam.
I understand what you are saying and I agree. I am just saying how it is. People start thinking about their security only after they were the victims of a hack/scam. We start to think and cheat like that from early age. I am not going to do my homework because there are 30 other pupils in my class. What are the chances the teacher will check if I did mine? And if you get a bad grade, you are angry at yourself for spending 30 minutes and doing the homework in the first place. You can apply the same excuses to matters of health, your own safety, etc.Working with Linux is a different kind of problem. That's not something a quick guide can teach you. But if you absolutely don't want to do that, you can stick with Windows because your system will be offline anyways. Linux is recommended, but it's not a must.
you really don't need any particular knowledge to be able to follow a step-by-step guide.
I think you do, or at least, you do if you want to do it properly.Most people would know how to turn off their WiFi or put their laptop in to airplane mode. However, WiFi cards can still leak some data even when turned off by the OS, and there is always the chance that you (or something in your OS) turns it back on by mistake. So to be sure, you should remove your WiFi card. How many people would be able to open their laptop and even identify the WiFi card, let alone safely remove it, especially if it is built in to the motherboard? Having a guide which says "Remove your WiFi card" is fine, but if someone has never before opened up a computer to look inside (which is the majority of the population) then that isn't really helpful for them. The same goes for other steps, such as installing Linux. A lot of people have never heard of Linux or even really know what an operating system is.
Step by step instructions are rarely detailed enough for the complete newbie, and if there is the slightest error or issue, then they are completely stuck. You don't need any programming knowledge as suggested above, but you do need a certain level of familiarity with computers and hardware.
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The biggest problem is that most people don't have spare computers or laptops laying around and not being used that they can use exclusively for their cold storage. Or they are not willing to invest in one only for that purpose.
The biggest problem is that most people don't have spare computers or laptops laying around and not being used that they can use exclusively for their cold storage. Or they are not willing to invest in one only for that purpose.
This is indeed an excuse i've heared numerous times from newer members: a hardware wallet is expensive (eventough it costs less than $100), or an old pc to setup an airgapped setup is expensive (eventough it costs less than $300)... But 3 months later they come in to complain about the fact they've lost the equivalent of $100.000 they had in their exchange "wallet" due to a hack or phishing or an exit scam.
It ridiculous to see how people don't want to spend $100 to keep $100.000 safe... But it is indeed a very, very, very common excuse i've read many, many times from many, many people....
Some software experience and you don't want to buy hardware wallets: choose an open source wallet, well reviewed with the purchase of a new device that is airgapped.
Considering how much information is available on the topic of creating an airgapped setup, both on Bitcointalk and outside of it, you really don't need any particular knowledge to be able to follow a step-by-step guide. Just read the recommendations and apply them. The biggest problem isn't in creating an airgapped system. The biggest problem is that most people don't have spare computers or laptops laying around and not being used that they can use exclusively for their cold storage. Or they are not willing to invest in one only for that purpose. Jump to: