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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 127. (Read 378996 times)

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
He hasn't for 2 years unless I missed something recently.
Correct. Neither he nor Hearn have had any contributions in a while. I wonder why that is? Hearn did want to push buggy code to Core at times (check github).


Some people are still going in circle apparently.

Hearn never made a single contribution to core.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
He hasn't for 2 years unless I missed something recently.
Correct. Neither he nor Hearn have had any contributions in a while. I wonder why that is? Hearn did want to push buggy code to Core at times (check github).


Some people are still going in circle apparently.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
I am running two full nodes from my home. I have calculated that I can personally also support much larger blocks from my home. However I am in the global minority with such good connections. In terms of most people not bothering I think that is already the case, I am only running my full nodes out of altruism after all. Most people do not run full nodes anyway, I do not actually have a problem with most people not running full nodes, it was never the intended configuration for large scale deployment after all. So over the long term I would expect most full nodes to be hosted in data centers and I do not really see a problem with that as long as the timing aligns well with adoption which would help counteract the problem of node centralization.

Any realistic "calculations" will have to involve how many people do you expect to deal with the kind of burden and spurts/outages that a node puts in your network so long you have it set up in such a way that will help more than hurt the P2P network.

So this is not easy or tractable at all.

What we know for sure is that nodes are dropping steadily toward dangerous numbers, even including situations like yours and mine which means the numbers are inflated (2 in the same home are less significant that 1-node-home, VPS nodes also are less helpful for the network in terms of decentralisation).

Current average bandwidth with approx 750KB real block sizes mean 150-200GB of monthly bandwidth usage, peaks during node propagation that will stall your connection for seconds (spurts of blocksize * maxconnections which should be at least 5 to be solid, in reality 8+ would be recommendable), that makes gaming or videoconferencing pretty much a non starter already unless you stop the node (or worse, throttle it worsening latency).

And that is now, not 8MB or something very drastic like that for January being suggested for BIP101 and 8GB down the line.

There's also using 50GB+ for the blockchain currently, as pruned Core doesn't currently support wallets and won't for a bit more.

Most people are already out as is.

Check out https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3p5n9c/number_of_bitcoin_nodes_is_at_a_6_year_low_if_you/ and this is mostly first-worlders speaking there.

Also, the node conversation is just one effect, there's miners also suffering latency and orphan rates that might force them to soft fork or feather fork creating a mess in the mining space, because regional clusters might start to appear and make large chain forks common.

When pruning support is finalised, and the major propagation optimisations are improved, then at that point 2MB seem possible and probably more, but not just because we like the number but we start deploying and observing that the transition is working safely.

And when I say that 1MB is already large I mean it, because it's already pushing people to run nodes in a way that isn't helpful but harmful, with low maxconnections under 8 and even under 5. And we have reasons to believe many are running in VPS and belong to much fewer people than numbers suggest. We might have NXT style attacks soon.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Anti-BIP101 thread has 101 pages.  Perhaps it's some sort of coded endorsement.   Grin

ouhh nice one mate.. Smiley

wonder how much pages the XTturders thread on the UnCeNs0rDED F00LRUM has tho.
not like i'd even spend the couple clicks to see for myself. ^^
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I suppose this is where we disagree, since I think that the blocksize can be increased without increasing centralization more then leaving it at one megabyte would. Since there are also centralization pressures when the blocksize is to low.

I can agree with you however that having a cap is a good thing and that currently it is sufficiently large enough and that under perfect conditions it might even be to large from a purely technical perspective. However since the cap is presently static it is highly likely that the present cap will not be ideal under future unknown conditions. Can you agree with the concept that the blocksize will most likely need to be increased in the future if technology and adoption increases as well?

How many domestic nodes do you run?

I run 1 domestic node, plus 2 nodes in VPS services abroad.

Domestic nodes are essential for the system. And I'm struggling to keep up already, on my optic fibre consumer grade connection. Most people wouldn't bother with the burden for no real benefit of running in constantly.
I am running two full nodes from my home. I have calculated that I can personally also support much larger blocks from my home. However I am in the global minority with such good connections. In terms of most people not bothering I think that is already the case, I am only running my full nodes out of altruism after all. Most people do not run full nodes anyway, I do not actually have a problem with most people not running full nodes, it was never the intended configuration for large scale deployment after all. So over the long term I would expect most full nodes to be hosted in data centers and I do not really see a problem with that as long as the timing aligns well with adoption which would help counteract the problem of node centralization.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
Anti-BIP101 thread has 101 pages.  Perhaps it's some sort of coded endorsement.   Grin

On a more serious note, was the reason for the long gap between the two scaling conferences intentional to let things simmer down a bit?  Or was it purely for logistical reasons?  Getting a kind of "in limbo" vibe at the moment.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
I suppose this is where we disagree, since I think that the blocksize can be increased without increasing centralization more then leaving it at one megabyte would. Since there are also centralization pressures when the blocksize is to low.

I can agree with you however that having a cap is a good thing and that currently it is sufficiently large enough and that under perfect conditions it might even be to large from a purely technical perspective. However since the cap is presently static it is highly likely that the present cap will not be ideal under future unknown conditions. Can you agree with the concept that the blocksize will most likely need to be increased in the future if technology and adoption increases as well?

How many domestic nodes do you run?

I run 1 domestic node, plus 2 nodes in VPS services abroad.

Domestic nodes are essential for the system. And I'm struggling to keep up already, on my optic fibre consumer grade connection. Most people wouldn't bother with the burden for no real benefit of running in constantly.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I would consider the limit to be artificial if it is not necessary in order to keep Bitcoin decentralized and free. Since when I do the cost versus benefit analysis there definitely seems to be more benefit to increasing the blocksize then there is cost. This evaluation is of course highly subjective and depends on our own ideologies which determine the outcome of our conclusions. I want Bitcoin to be decentralized and free and I do not think that increasing the blocksize compromises these principles, actually with everything considered I actually think these principles would be strengthened with an increase in the blocksize. This does need to be a balancing act however, there are most certainly negative externalities on both ends of this scale and a middle ground will most likely end up being the best solution.
That's the whole point. We know an uncapped fee market under current conditions will strongly push towards centralisation. So it's a very reasonable measure to have, even though 1MB is already on the big side. Most people in most countries cannot reasonably afford to run a node, even in developed countries.
I suppose this is where we disagree, since I think that the blocksize can be increased without increasing centralization more then leaving it at one megabyte would. Since there are also centralization pressures when the blocksize is to low.

I can agree with you however that having a cap is a good thing and that currently it is sufficiently large enough and that under perfect conditions it might even be to large from a purely technical perspective. However since the cap is presently static it is highly likely that the present cap will not be ideal under future unknown conditions. Can you agree with the concept that the blocksize will most likely need to be increased in the future if technology and adoption increases as well?
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
I would consider the limit to be artificial if it is not necessary in order to keep Bitcoin decentralized and free. Since when I do the cost versus benefit analysis there definitely seems to be more benefit to increasing the blocksize then there is cost. This evaluation is of course highly subjective and depends on our own ideologies which determine the outcome of our conclusions. I want Bitcoin to be decentralized and free and I do not think that increasing the blocksize compromises these principles, actually with everything considered I actually think these principles would be strengthened with an increase in the blocksize. This does need to be a balancing act however, there are most certainly negative externalities on both ends of this scale and a middle ground will most likely end up being the best solution.

That's the whole point. We know an uncapped fee market under current conditions will strongly push towards centralisation. So it's a very reasonable measure to have, even though 1MB is already on the big side. Most people in most countries cannot reasonably afford to run a node, even in developed countries.
legendary
Activity: 1869
Merit: 5781
Neighborhood Shenanigans Dispenser
Is Gavin not contributing to Core any more ?
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
Is Gavin not contributing to Core any more ?

He hasn't for 2 years unless I missed something recently.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
The centralization is about to be done. The exchangers are looking for regulation(licenses). Financial license = centralization, rules, Govs and so on.
BTC is and it will remain a niche market.

Do not forget that the miners, developers and the big exchangers are controlling the market and they work together even now. This is a centralization. Decentralization is an Utopia and everybody knows that.

There is no reason not using credit/debit cards for any online or offline purchases.They are FREE of charge and they are instant. BTC is "good" if you want to play, speculative trading. Nothing more.

Your butter desires are not a certainty, but what is true is that gigablockers are working hard so that scenario happens.

If I wanted to destroy Bitcoin as a decentralised, uncensored, neutral transaction system, I would do exactly what they are doing. Try to destroy it from the inside.

But their support is nominally zero in real terms.

This thread should be binned now or sent to the shitcoin subforum. XT is dead, long live Core.

Would be more appropriate in the altcoin section to be honest, but I don't care much since I browse the forum from the latest unread messages anyway.
Its funny I would think that not increasing the blocksize at all would also be a way to undermine and possibly co opt Bitcoin. To be fair though both extremely large blocks and extremely small blocks have the potential to destroy Bitcoin at least theoretically.

aww here he comes again spinning his fraud of an opinion.

like anyone cares. ^^


hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
The centralization is about to be done. The exchangers are looking for regulation(licenses). Financial license = centralization, rules, Govs and so on.
BTC is and it will remain a niche market.

Do not forget that the miners, developers and the big exchangers are controlling the market and they work together even now. This is a centralization. Decentralization is an Utopia and everybody knows that.

There is no reason not using credit/debit cards for any online or offline purchases.They are FREE of charge and they are instant. BTC is "good" if you want to play, speculative trading. Nothing more.

Your butter desires are not a certainty, but what is true is that gigablockers are working hard so that scenario happens.

If I wanted to destroy Bitcoin as a decentralised, uncensored, neutral transaction system, I would do exactly what they are doing. Try to destroy it from the inside.

But their support is nominally zero in real terms.

This thread should be binned now or sent to the shitcoin subforum. XT is dead, long live Core.

Would be more appropriate in the altcoin section to be honest, but I don't care much since I browse the forum from the latest unread messages anyway.
Its funny I would think that not increasing the blocksize at all would also be a way to undermine and possibly co opt Bitcoin. To be fair though both extremely large blocks and extremely small blocks have the potential to destroy Bitcoin at least theoretically.

If you can agree with increasing the block size before the network becomes so overloaded that it would cause transactions to become unreliable hurting adoption and public perception. Then we can at least agree on this basic point which is what concerns me the most after all.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
At one megabyte I would consider it to be artificial hindering adoption especially after a potential spike in new users. Since I would consider a moderate increase in the block size to be viable since this would not compromise the decentralization and financial freedom of Bitcoin, quite the opposite actually, leaving the blocksize where it is now in the face of increased adoption would lead to increased centralization compared to the alternatives. For anyone that is more interested in my perspective I have written a more in depth article explaining this further.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-i-support-bip101-1164464
What are you defining as "artificial" in this context? All Bitcoin rules and limitations, including the very definition of the system, are human-set. There is an "artificial limitation" to double spend. There is another "artificial limitation" to spend somebody else's coins. Etc.

If the limitation keeps the system viable, then it's just about as artificial as these other limitations, and what would be dangerous, whether artificial or not, is to try to support more txs than current capacity at the expense of the viability of the system as a decentralised, neutral transaction enabling tool that is not feasible for the authorities of anywhere to take down.
I would consider the limit to be artificial if it is not necessary in order to keep Bitcoin decentralized and free. Since when I do the cost versus benefit analysis there definitely seems to be more benefit to increasing the blocksize then there is cost. This evaluation is of course highly subjective and depends on our own ideologies which determine the outcome of our conclusions. I want Bitcoin to be decentralized and free and I do not think that increasing the blocksize compromises these principles, actually with everything considered I actually think these principles would be strengthened with an increase in the blocksize. This does need to be a balancing act however, there are most certainly negative externalities on both ends of this scale and a middle ground will most likely end up being the best solution.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
The centralization is about to be done. The exchangers are looking for regulation(licenses). Financial license = centralization, rules, Govs and so on.
BTC is and it will remain a niche market.

Do not forget that the miners, developers and the big exchangers are controlling the market and they work together even now. This is a centralization. Decentralization is an Utopia and everybody knows that.

There is no reason not using credit/debit cards for any online or offline purchases.They are FREE of charge and they are instant. BTC is "good" if you want to play, speculative trading. Nothing more.

Your butter desires are not a certainty, but what is true is that gigablockers are working hard so that scenario happens.

If I wanted to destroy Bitcoin as a decentralised, uncensored, neutral transaction system, I would do exactly what they are doing. Try to destroy it from the inside.

But their support is nominally zero in real terms.

This thread should be binned now or sent to the shitcoin subforum. XT is dead, long live Core.

Would be more appropriate in the altcoin section to be honest, but I don't care much since I browse the forum from the latest unread messages anyway.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004
besides, buying other daily things is economically nonsense because of its volatility.

you dont wanna end up like that dude buynig a pizza with bitcoins 4 years ago!
The only reason to use/sell and not replenish is that you believe the price is going down.

I've bought stuff and immediately replenished, the exchange rate didn't bother me at all. If I went back to the stuff I got pre 2013 for BTC at today's rates I paid fortunes, but that makes no sense so long as you rebuy.

If you pay a sensible fee and the system is sustainable, transacting as much as you want and can afford to is fine. The system is currently unstable in that we have to be praying for people not to overuse it because the incentives are fucked, and that is the problem. The system should be such that nobody can afford to deny service. Blocks have to stay manageable and people need to pay higher fees if they don't want their txs lagging for ages or rejected.
I use Bitcoin frequently as a currency, and I re buy my Bitcoin when I spend them. I think that the incentives of Bitcoin are working fine, we just need to increase the blocksize, which would make it more expensive to attack Bitcoin by overloading it with transactions. Miners can choose not to include low fee transactions anyway if that is what the situation requires. Higher volume with a lower fee would be better then a lower volume with a higher fee.
Question: Why don't you use your credit/debit card instead of BTC. Any online and offline shopping by using credit/debit cards is free of charge. Cheaper than that you cannot find Smiley
For some things Bitcoin is better, and I am ideologically motivated. So i like to use Bitcoin as much as I can because I am aware of its potential to change the world. There are many legitimate uses for transacting in Bitcoin, after all one of the advantages of Bitcoin as a commodity is that we can send it across the world over the internet, unlike gold for example. Transactional capability and use cases are important for Bitcoin as it strengthens its value proposition as a commodity and as a currency.

 Cheesy

Can you give an example? I'm actually curious to know what do you use it for.
Using Bitcoin disempowers the current status quo. Bitcoin enables peaceful revolution through co opting of the currency and blockchain technology. The current banking system through quantitative easing acts like hidden taxation and further enables governments to wage wars and other draconian policies, while also increasing inequality. The use and adoption of cryptocurrencies can circumvent these structures of centralized power. I can explain in much greater depth the political potential that Bitcoin has, however let me just say that the changes that it can bring for our civilization are profound to say the least. It was my interest in political philosophy that drew me to Bitcoin initially once I realized its great potential.

To answer your other question, I personally use it to transfer value between myself and people I know, like family and friends. Recently I had somebody help me with building a website and I sent them Bitcoin for that as well. I am also a miner so I have purchased most of my equipment using Bitcoin. I have bought beers at bitcoin meet ups, and other computer components online. I accept Bitcoin at a brick and mortar store I am involved with now, however admittingly we have not had a lot of customers use Bitcoin at our store.

In the Netherlands where I am living at the moment there is a food delivery network that accepts Bitcoin so when I order take aways I almost always pay with Bitcoin, and I do consider it to be faster and more convenient in this case, the website uses BitPay as its payment processor, I have a big TV screen where I do the order on and then I pay with my smartphone using the Airbits wallet, it works very well. Smiley

https://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/en/

There are other use cases like remittance and black markets for example. The Wikileaks case is also a good example of an important use case, in short Wikileaks got its funding cut by visa, paypal, mastercard ect. Wikileaks started accepting Bitcoin as an alternative way to receive funding, this was in 2011. This is a good example of how Bitcoin enables more financial freedom through its transactional capabilities.

The centralization is about to be done. The exchangers are looking for regulation(licenses). Financial license = centralization, rules, Govs and so on.
BTC is and it will remain a niche market.

Do not forget that the miners, developers and the big exchangers are controlling the market and they work together even now. This is a centralization. Decentralization is an Utopia and everybody knows that.

There is no reason not using credit/debit cards for any online or offline purchases.They are FREE of charge and they are instant. BTC is "good" if you want to play, speculative trading. Nothing more.

legendary
Activity: 3346
Merit: 1618
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
This thread should be binned now or sent to the shitcoin subforum. XT is dead, long live Core.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
At one megabyte I would consider it to be artificial hindering adoption especially after a potential spike in new users. Since I would consider a moderate increase in the block size to be viable since this would not compromise the decentralization and financial freedom of Bitcoin, quite the opposite actually, leaving the blocksize where it is now in the face of increased adoption would lead to increased centralization compared to the alternatives. For anyone that is more interested in my perspective I have written a more in depth article explaining this further.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-i-support-bip101-1164464

What are you defining as "artificial" in this context? All Bitcoin rules and limitations, including the very definition of the system, are human-set. There is an "artificial limitation" to double spend. There is another "artificial limitation" to spend somebody else's coins. Etc.

If the limitation keeps the system viable, then it's just about as artificial as these other limitations, and what would be dangerous, whether artificial or not, is to try to support more txs than current capacity at the expense of the viability of the system as a decentralised, neutral transaction enabling tool that is not feasible for the authorities of anywhere to take down.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Actually if I look at the parameters objectively I'd say the cap is currently too high and a lot of nodes are overstretched as we approach anywhere near cap sizes with some consistency. Fees also remain too low. No real signs of having a cap that artificially hinders adoption.

But since it has been like this for a long time and lowering would be massively contentious I concede keeping it like this for the time being.

If scalability requires of a big jump in block size rather than other technical means it would be sort of a defeat for the dev community. We will see.
I do not necessarily think that fees are to low since the block reward is still high and adoption is still relatively low. I would agree with you however that I would not want to see this cap artificially hinder adoption. Which is really the primary scenario I would want to avoid, where the blocks became consistently full causing transactions to become unreliable and prohibitively expensive. If you can agree with that then we are not really in disagreement.

The hindering would not be artificial if it's necessary for the system to be viable, so no, we don't agree to that either.
At one megabyte I would consider it to be artificial hindering adoption especially after a potential spike in new users. Since I would consider a moderate increase in the block size to be viable since this would not compromise the decentralization and financial freedom of Bitcoin, quite the opposite actually, leaving the blocksize where it is now in the face of increased adoption would lead to increased centralization compared to the alternatives. For anyone that is more interested in my perspective I have written a more in depth article explaining this further.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-i-support-bip101-1164464
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