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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 172. (Read 378996 times)

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of sacrificing decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?

Right Exactly!

the block size debate is kinda besides the point, block should be as big as they need too, period the end. and we should be focused on solving this core issue.

the scalability debate should be more about,figuring out what the "max load"  or "min requirements" we expect from full node users ( 15MBPS + reasonable computer?? ) and reducing the load to accommodate as much traffic as possible.

The min requirement is simple: being able to run a node over an anonymous low-bandwidth connection

Quote
I’d ignore mundane expenses like hardware and power. Instead, recall that, if a full node cannot be run anonymously, “the network” (full node entry) is effectively controlled by law enforcement, a central entity. Therefore, my view is that the current largest “cost” (and current bottleneck to Bitcoin scalability) is therefore the threat of persecution.

By low bandwidth you mean a 56K external modem? You never answered my questions about how do you plan to make the protocol measure the "cost" of running a node btw.

he wants full node to run behind TOR which is retardedly slow, he's bonkers.

go make a shit coin brg444, we want to make a really good digital currency not enable childporn.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of sacrificing decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?

Right Exactly!

the block size debate is kinda besides the point, block should be as big as they need too, period the end. and we should be focused on solving this core issue.

the scalability debate should be more about,figuring out what the "max load"  or "min requirements" we expect from full node users ( 15MBPS + reasonable computer?? ) and reducing the load to accommodate as much traffic as possible.

The min requirement is simple: being able to run a node over an anonymous low-bandwidth connection

Quote
I’d ignore mundane expenses like hardware and power. Instead, recall that, if a full node cannot be run anonymously, “the network” (full node entry) is effectively controlled by law enforcement, a central entity. Therefore, my view is that the current largest “cost” (and current bottleneck to Bitcoin scalability) is therefore the threat of persecution.

ya tell that to kim dom
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of sacrificing decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?

Right Exactly!

the block size debate is kinda besides the point, block should be as big as they need too, period the end. and we should be focused on solving this core issue.

the scalability debate should be more about,figuring out what the "max load"  or "min requirements" we expect from full node users ( 15MBPS + reasonable computer?? ) and reducing the load to accommodate as much traffic as possible.

The min requirement is simple: being able to run a node over an anonymous low-bandwidth connection

Quote
I’d ignore mundane expenses like hardware and power. Instead, recall that, if a full node cannot be run anonymously, “the network” (full node entry) is effectively controlled by law enforcement, a central entity. Therefore, my view is that the current largest “cost” (and current bottleneck to Bitcoin scalability) is therefore the threat of persecution.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of sacrificing decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?

Right Exactly!

the block size debate is kinda besides the point, block should be as big as they need too, period the end. and we should be focused on solving this core issue.

the scalability debate should be more about,figuring out what the "max load"  or "min requirements" we expect from full node users ( 15MBPS + reasonable computer?? ) and reducing the load to accommodate as much traffic as possible.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking. 

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread. 

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?


No because these issues did not arise yet so there is no incentive to solve them yet?
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
Earn with impressio.io
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of sacrificing decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
It's obvious you'll never come around as you are just here to promote XT.  Nevertheless, I'll address this tired underlying assumptions that "people would still need to choose to download and install the new implementation" somehow magically protects Bitcoin for generations to come:

False assumption #1: Everyone who downloads the program completely understands the code.

The vast majority of people do not understand the code, and most are not programmers.  Most of us, even those of us who program and can read code, downloaded and ran Core without having any idea about the details of what it does. (e.g., does it log IP addresses?)  The reason I take time to post on this forum about the risks of XT is so people can make a more informed decision, and if they decide to install XT, will at least hopefully be wise enough to question each upgrade.  Ditto for Core upgrades.  Hopefully, discussion like this help broaden awareness of the risks of new code.  

False assumption #2: Those who do have a better understanding of the features of the program they download are guaranteed to understand the implications of those features.  

The reality is that unless they do understand the implications, they are likely to take the purpose of the code at face value for what its author claims it will do.  Undoubtedly, there are some who installed XT who feel protected from DoS attacks because of the patch Mike put in it.  Unfortunately, had they read the thread with the Core devs when they rejected it, they would of known that (a) the only claim of a Tor attack was on Gavin's node with no evidence that any other node ever had an attack via Tor, (b) neither Gavin nor Mike provided logs or other evidence of the attack when the Core devs requested it, (c) the Core devs listed many reasons why most DDoS attacks are likely to come from non-Tor sources, (d) even Mike acknowledged that innocent Tor users would be harmed by it and (e) when the attack came from likely non-Tor sources, only Tor would effectively be blocked, not the DoS sources it was supposedly intended to counter.  Additionally, (f) this is intended to evolve, and could evolve with enough critical mass combined with XT whitelisting to make it very difficult to unseat XT as the primary code for Bitcoin nodes.  

Does the XT website discuss any of this?  No.  Not only does it ignore all concerns raised by the Core team, Mike has even publicly made statements about the process in which this patch was rejected by Core that very deceptively try to make the Core team look like the bad guys but conveniently leave out the truth of why Core rejected it.  Fortunately, the dialog between the Core devs and Mike on his pull request is very public for those interested in reading it.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6364
I am sorry to oversimplify your argument but you are essentially saying that people can not be trusted to make the best decision in terms of what implementation to run. This is however where I believe the fundamental choice and source of the voluntarism of Bitcoin should and does lie. Not governance structures build on top of an implementation or on top of the Bitcoin blockchain, since then we would run into some of the same old problems that large organizations and states run into. The consensus mechanism for resolving such disagreements already exists and it depends on what code people choose to run and where the miners direct their hashing power. Maybe you are correct and the economic majority will not make the best decision, however this freedom of choice is so important and fundamental for maintaining the freedom and decentralized nature of Bitcoin that this would still be the best path to take. There is an irony in accusing XT of dictatorship while simultaneously saying that people should not be trusted with the freedom of choice.
Trust?!?  I'm simply pointing out the obvious that applies to ALL OF US -- myself included.  Nearly every one of us who uses software runs it without thoroughly understanding what it is doing under the hood, even those of us who have been programming for many years in many languages, and have the best capabilities to break it down -- IF WE HAD ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD.

Heck, yesterday I just debugged a production system where code I wrote relied on JSON4J, which is open source, because I didn't know about its undocumented behavior of a constructor I was using.  Could I of looked at the source beforehand to predict it behave different with different numeric data types?  Yes.  But, as  general practice, we use a lot of open source libraries without ever looking at any of their code because no one has the time to inspect it all or discuss it on a forum.  

Now, I do believe there is a good percent of Bitcoin users, particularly today in its early stages, who are largely informed, in large part, not because they read the code, but because they spent time on this forum and read up on how it works elsewhere, truly interested in learning.  It was some time after I first ran Core before I really understood what it did and didn't do under the hood, and as a programmer still have more questions than answers, and in large part because of this forum, despite having over a decade of C++ experience since I will never have the time to peer review all the code.  

And, while I would like to believe that nearly everyone on this forum understands Bitcoin, and am encouraged by the many people who do, I'm at the same time amazed at how many people defend XT and defend the blacklists based on the claimed intent of the person who submitted the code without even trying to understand the implications of it, both in the present and the future (Mike clearly states he plans to evolve it.)  Yet, many who defend XT haven't even taken the time to read the discussion on Github when Core reviewed his pull request to see what his peers thought -- and, for most of the discussion, they held back quite a bit, trying to be nice about it, and not being too blunt about how incredibly bad of an idea it was. Yet, this incredibly bad idea is in the download from the nicely marketed XT website.  While miners appear to be rejecting it for now, the best news of all, I'm shocked that 10% of nodes are actually running it (setting aside the impossible to calculate spoofing on both sides). 
My point still stands, that you do not "trust" people with the freedom of choice in the form of alternative implementations of Bitcoin.

To be clear I do not like how the DDOS prevention feature has been implemented, and if you do want to support BIP101 it is better to run the version of XT that only implements BIP101 or just run Core with a BIP101 patch. I am not an unreasonable person, I would support most proposals to increase the blocksize it is just that BIP101 is the only proposal that has actually been implemented now, and as soon as a new proposal is implemented I would most likely support that instead especially if it represents a middle ground between these two extreme positions. Regardless of what you think of XT and what the future holds for BIP101, it has been a catalyst for change, this in itself should be seen as being a positive thing.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
Well would you look at that, even people within your own little circle jerk are calling you out on your myopic conceptualization of the economy.



Don't you think maybe it's time you exit the vacuum and see if your economic theories apply in the real world?

If you read the thread, you'd see that I posted a two-sentence "proof" (<-- I used the scare quotes to indicate that it probably wasn't a proof), and then asked people to poke holes in it.  

I agree with @molecular.  The economic pressure can also be relieved, for example, by people voluntarily leaving the economic system.  This would drop the supply curve such that it meets the demand curve at a point near the quota (Qmax).

What is interesting, is that either way (by fork or by people leaving the system), somehow the result is that Q* ends up to the left of Qmax!  If this simple result is true, it would imply that it is not possible to use a block size limit to drive up fees.  

Of course if bitcoin becomes too much expensive to use other cheaper systems will get their shares of the market reducing the usage of bitcoin. I don't see how this could be good for bitcoin in any possible way.

It is good because Bitcoin was never about serving the cheap transactions market. People who cannot pay for the security and censorship-resistance it offers are not valuable clients.

Here again:

What is interesting, is that either way (by fork or by people leaving the system), somehow the result is that Q* ends up to the left of Qmax!  If this simple result is true, it would imply that it is not possible to use a block size limit to drive up fees.

It also means less people will indirectly hold bitcoins.

The result is not true so I'm not even sure why you would bring this up. Trace Mayer even addressed this exact situation during the interview:

Quote
Another thing that's interesting to look at is looking at a chart, not just of transactions but of transaction fees normalized to USD and comparing that chart to the market cap of Bitcoin. You know what? The market cap follows almost exactly how much people are willing to spend on transaction fees. So the conclusion we can draw is the more people are willing to spend the higher market cap. Then we get to see who's actually willing to pay to use it. That's a hard cost that people incur using the Bitcoin network.

I think it's great to see more hard cost because then we get to filter who the real users are because they are willing to pay money to use  it.

Yeah sure but the real question is how much money they will be willing to pay when there are cheaper alternatives that offers the exact same features around the corner?

Great way to push bitcoin to be a real failure.

So your whole argument hangs on the premise that some imaginary crypto will come through, sponsored by corporations and banks, and will steal Bitcoin's lunch money?

Where does your delusion stops  Huh

A cheaper proposition doesn't need to be sponsored by anybody. Do you know how cheap it is to copy open code and tweak it? The economics and incentives at play will just work by itself.
Do you know how many altcoins are there waiting to catch some spectrum of the market bitcoin would miss? http://coinmarketcap.com/

Bitcoin is not alone and will never be. It needs to compete in terms of value proposition in all. possible. ways. or it will just lose that market share.

That is precisely why you are abjectly wrong.

A ton of altcoin exists right now with enormously more transaction throughput yet not one of them is challenging Bitcoin.

I'm starting to figure you will never understand this but the people who give Bitcoin its value, the holders, the "bitcoin rich list", could not careless about the transaction throughput or higher transaction fees. They will not be driven away from their investment because some noobs complain that they have to pay more than a penny for their transactions to go through.

Without these people it doesn't matter if you altcoin can do 1 trillion transactions a second because it is worthless as no serious investors has any interest holding it on the long term.

No altcoin is actually challenging bitcoin simply because bitcoin already offers everything users and businesses needs at a competitive cost but the day the price of conducting transactions will rise, things will change. There will be an economic incentive to use another system that is simply cheaper, faster that has less friction. Why use bitcoin then as money then? Because it has a 21M limit herp derp?

Holding a useless thing does not make that thing valuable or tulips and Bernie babies would still be on the moon. You can continue to think so and ignore the reality though but the reality won't ignore you.

Read this post here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12506336 let it sink in and until you can present a cogent reply to it then I am not wasting my time with you anymore.

Your whole post does not take care of the competitive environment bitcoin is facing. Top kek.

You should revise it otherwise it is completely meaningless because it misses a whole bunch of variables.  
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
Trace Mayer: "He who holds the gold makes the rules  Wink

lol, bitcoin is not real gold and almost nobody care about bitcoin. He might makes some rules for his own backward. Nobody cares.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Trace Mayer: "He who holds the gold makes the rules  Wink
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Well would you look at that, even people within your own little circle jerk are calling you out on your myopic conceptualization of the economy.



Don't you think maybe it's time you exit the vacuum and see if your economic theories apply in the real world?

If you read the thread, you'd see that I posted a two-sentence "proof" (<-- I used the scare quotes to indicate that it probably wasn't a proof), and then asked people to poke holes in it.  

I agree with @molecular.  The economic pressure can also be relieved, for example, by people voluntarily leaving the economic system.  This would drop the supply curve such that it meets the demand curve at a point near the quota (Qmax).

What is interesting, is that either way (by fork or by people leaving the system), somehow the result is that Q* ends up to the left of Qmax!  If this simple result is true, it would imply that it is not possible to use a block size limit to drive up fees.  

Of course if bitcoin becomes too much expensive to use other cheaper systems will get their shares of the market reducing the usage of bitcoin. I don't see how this could be good for bitcoin in any possible way.

It is good because Bitcoin was never about serving the cheap transactions market. People who cannot pay for the security and censorship-resistance it offers are not valuable clients.

Here again:

What is interesting, is that either way (by fork or by people leaving the system), somehow the result is that Q* ends up to the left of Qmax!  If this simple result is true, it would imply that it is not possible to use a block size limit to drive up fees.

It also means less people will indirectly hold bitcoins.

The result is not true so I'm not even sure why you would bring this up. Trace Mayer even addressed this exact situation during the interview:

Quote
Another thing that's interesting to look at is looking at a chart, not just of transactions but of transaction fees normalized to USD and comparing that chart to the market cap of Bitcoin. You know what? The market cap follows almost exactly how much people are willing to spend on transaction fees. So the conclusion we can draw is the more people are willing to spend the higher market cap. Then we get to see who's actually willing to pay to use it. That's a hard cost that people incur using the Bitcoin network.

I think it's great to see more hard cost because then we get to filter who the real users are because they are willing to pay money to use  it.

Yeah sure but the real question is how much money they will be willing to pay when there are cheaper alternatives that offers the exact same features around the corner?

Great way to push bitcoin to be a real failure.

So your whole argument hangs on the premise that some imaginary crypto will come through, sponsored by corporations and banks, and will steal Bitcoin's lunch money?

Where does your delusion stops  Huh

A cheaper proposition doesn't need to be sponsored by anybody. Do you know how cheap it is to copy open code and tweak it? The economics and incentives at play will just work by itself.
Do you know how many altcoins are there waiting to catch some spectrum of the market bitcoin would miss? http://coinmarketcap.com/

Bitcoin is not alone and will never be. It needs to compete in terms of value proposition in all. possible. ways. or it will just lose that market share.

That is precisely why you are abjectly wrong.

A ton of altcoin exists right now with enormously more transaction throughput yet not one of them is challenging Bitcoin.

I'm starting to figure you will never understand this but the people who give Bitcoin its value, the holders, the "bitcoin rich list", could not careless about the transaction throughput or higher transaction fees. They will not be driven away from their investment because some noobs complain that they have to pay more than a penny for their transactions to go through.

Without these people it doesn't matter if you altcoin can do 1 trillion transactions a second because it is worthless as no serious investors has any interest holding it on the long term.

No altcoin is actually challenging bitcoin simply because bitcoin already offers everything users and businesses needs at a competitive cost but the day the price of conducting transactions will rise, things will change. There will be an economic incentive to use another system that is simply cheaper, faster that has less friction. Why use bitcoin then as money then? Because it has a 21M limit herp derp?

Holding a useless thing does not make that thing valuable or tulips and Bernie babies would still be on the moon. You can continue to think so and ignore the reality though but the reality won't ignore you.

Read this post here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12506336 let it sink in and until you can present a cogent reply to it then I am not wasting my time with you anymore.

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
Well would you look at that, even people within your own little circle jerk are calling you out on your myopic conceptualization of the economy.



Don't you think maybe it's time you exit the vacuum and see if your economic theories apply in the real world?

If you read the thread, you'd see that I posted a two-sentence "proof" (<-- I used the scare quotes to indicate that it probably wasn't a proof), and then asked people to poke holes in it.  

I agree with @molecular.  The economic pressure can also be relieved, for example, by people voluntarily leaving the economic system.  This would drop the supply curve such that it meets the demand curve at a point near the quota (Qmax).

What is interesting, is that either way (by fork or by people leaving the system), somehow the result is that Q* ends up to the left of Qmax!  If this simple result is true, it would imply that it is not possible to use a block size limit to drive up fees.  

Of course if bitcoin becomes too much expensive to use other cheaper systems will get their shares of the market reducing the usage of bitcoin. I don't see how this could be good for bitcoin in any possible way.

It is good because Bitcoin was never about serving the cheap transactions market. People who cannot pay for the security and censorship-resistance it offers are not valuable clients.

Here again:

What is interesting, is that either way (by fork or by people leaving the system), somehow the result is that Q* ends up to the left of Qmax!  If this simple result is true, it would imply that it is not possible to use a block size limit to drive up fees.

It also means less people will indirectly hold bitcoins.

The result is not true so I'm not even sure why you would bring this up. Trace Mayer even addressed this exact situation during the interview:

Quote
Another thing that's interesting to look at is looking at a chart, not just of transactions but of transaction fees normalized to USD and comparing that chart to the market cap of Bitcoin. You know what? The market cap follows almost exactly how much people are willing to spend on transaction fees. So the conclusion we can draw is the more people are willing to spend the higher market cap. Then we get to see who's actually willing to pay to use it. That's a hard cost that people incur using the Bitcoin network.

I think it's great to see more hard cost because then we get to filter who the real users are because they are willing to pay money to use  it.

Yeah sure but the real question is how much money they will be willing to pay when there are cheaper alternatives that offers the exact same features around the corner?

Great way to push bitcoin to be a real failure.

So your whole argument hangs on the premise that some imaginary crypto will come through, sponsored by corporations and banks, and will steal Bitcoin's lunch money?

Where does your delusion stops  Huh

A cheaper proposition doesn't need to be sponsored by anybody. Do you know how cheap it is to copy open code and tweak it? The economics and incentives at play will just work by itself.
Do you know how many altcoins are there waiting to catch some spectrum of the market bitcoin would miss? http://coinmarketcap.com/

Bitcoin is not alone and will never be. It needs to compete in terms of value proposition in all. possible. ways. or it will just lose that market share.

That is precisely why you are abjectly wrong.

A ton of altcoin exists right now with enormously more transaction throughput yet not one of them is challenging Bitcoin.

I'm starting to figure you will never understand this but the people who give Bitcoin its value, the holders, the "bitcoin rich list", could not careless about the transaction throughput or higher transaction fees. They will not be driven away from their investment because some noobs complain that they have to pay more than a penny for their transactions to go through.

Without these people it doesn't matter if you altcoin can do 1 trillion transactions a second because it is worthless as no serious investors has any interest holding it on the long term.

No altcoin is actually challenging bitcoin simply because bitcoin already offers everything users and businesses needs at a competitive cost but the day the price of conducting transactions will rise, things will change. There will be an economic incentive to use another system that is simply cheaper, faster that has less friction. Why use bitcoin as money then? Just because it has a 21M limit herp derp?

Holding a useless thing does not make that thing valuable or tulips and Bernie babies would still be on the moon. You can continue to think so and ignore the reality though but the reality won't ignore you.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
sr. member
Activity: 504
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I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.

Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
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It's obvious you'll never come around as you are just here to promote XT.  Nevertheless, I'll address this tired underlying assumptions that "people would still need to choose to download and install the new implementation" somehow magically protects Bitcoin for generations to come:

False assumption #1: Everyone who downloads the program completely understands the code.

The vast majority of people do not understand the code, and most are not programmers.  Most of us, even those of us who program and can read code, downloaded and ran Core without having any idea about the details of what it does. (e.g., does it log IP addresses?)  The reason I take time to post on this forum about the risks of XT is so people can make a more informed decision, and if they decide to install XT, will at least hopefully be wise enough to question each upgrade.  Ditto for Core upgrades.  Hopefully, discussion like this help broaden awareness of the risks of new code.  

False assumption #2: Those who do have a better understanding of the features of the program they download are guaranteed to understand the implications of those features.  

The reality is that unless they do understand the implications, they are likely to take the purpose of the code at face value for what its author claims it will do.  Undoubtedly, there are some who installed XT who feel protected from DoS attacks because of the patch Mike put in it.  Unfortunately, had they read the thread with the Core devs when they rejected it, they would of known that (a) the only claim of a Tor attack was on Gavin's node with no evidence that any other node ever had an attack via Tor, (b) neither Gavin nor Mike provided logs or other evidence of the attack when the Core devs requested it, (c) the Core devs listed many reasons why most DDoS attacks are likely to come from non-Tor sources, (d) even Mike acknowledged that innocent Tor users would be harmed by it and (e) when the attack came from likely non-Tor sources, only Tor would effectively be blocked, not the DoS sources it was supposedly intended to counter.  Additionally, (f) this is intended to evolve, and could evolve with enough critical mass combined with XT whitelisting to make it very difficult to unseat XT as the primary code for Bitcoin nodes.  

Does the XT website discuss any of this?  No.  Not only does it ignore all concerns raised by the Core team, Mike has even publicly made statements about the process in which this patch was rejected by Core that very deceptively try to make the Core team look like the bad guys but conveniently leave out the truth of why Core rejected it.  Fortunately, the dialog between the Core devs and Mike on his pull request is very public for those interested in reading it.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6364
I am sorry to oversimplify your argument but you are essentially saying that people can not be trusted to make the best decision in terms of what implementation to run. This is however where I believe the fundamental choice and source of the voluntarism of Bitcoin should and does lie. Not governance structures build on top of an implementation or on top of the Bitcoin blockchain, since then we would run into some of the same old problems that large organizations and states run into. The consensus mechanism for resolving such disagreements already exists and it depends on what code people choose to run and where the miners direct their hashing power. Maybe you are correct and the economic majority will not make the best decision, however this freedom of choice is so important and fundamental for maintaining the freedom and decentralized nature of Bitcoin that this would still be the best path to take. There is an irony in accusing XT of dictatorship while simultaneously saying that people should not be trusted with the freedom of choice.

Trust?!?  I'm simply pointing out the obvious that applies to ALL OF US -- myself included.  Nearly every one of us who uses software runs it without thoroughly understanding what it is doing under the hood, even those of us who have been programming for many years in many languages, and have the best capabilities to break it down -- IF WE HAD ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD.

Heck, yesterday I just debugged a production system where code I wrote relied on JSON4J, which is open source, because I didn't know about its undocumented behavior of a constructor I was using.  Could I of looked at the source beforehand to predict it behave different with different numeric data types?  Yes.  But, as  general practice, we use a lot of open source libraries without ever looking at any of their code because no one has the time to inspect it all or discuss it on a forum.  

Now, I do believe there is a good percent of Bitcoin users, particularly today in its early stages, who are largely informed, in large part, not because they read the code, but because they spent time on this forum and read up on how it works elsewhere, truly interested in learning.  It was some time after I first ran Core before I really understood what it did and didn't do under the hood, and as a programmer still have more questions than answers, and in large part because of this forum, despite having over a decade of C++ experience since I will never have the time to peer review all the code.  

And, while I would like to believe that nearly everyone on this forum understands Bitcoin, and am encouraged by the many people who do, I'm at the same time amazed at how many people defend XT and defend the blacklists based on the claimed intent of the person who submitted the code without even trying to understand the implications of it, both in the present and the future (Mike clearly states he plans to evolve it.)  Yet, many who defend XT haven't even taken the time to read the discussion on Github when Core reviewed his pull request to see what his peers thought -- and, for most of the discussion, they held back quite a bit, trying to be nice about it, and not being too blunt about how incredibly bad of an idea it was. Yet, this incredibly bad idea is in the download from the nicely marketed XT website.  While miners appear to be rejecting it for now, the best news of all, I'm shocked that 10% of nodes are actually running it (setting aside the impossible to calculate spoofing on both sides). 



 
hero member
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
It would be, if the benevolent dictator were still a part of it and got his way.  But, clearly, Core devs have a proven track record of rejecting such hideous proposals for very sound reasons -- very publicly documented in threads.  This is part of the reason the dictator created XT.  Remember, Core recently rejected his blacklisting idea just prior to him promoting XT and including the blacklist code in XT.

If the Core team changes, and begins to accept these bad ideas, I'll be recommending people choose an alternative.  Until then, Core is the best code base with the devs who have proven they are dedicated to protecting Bitcoin.  Let's hope it stays that way.
I have shown time and time again unequivocally how XT is not a dictatorship. There are also no blacklists within Bitcoin XT. You are spreading misinformation, this is not conductive towards constructive discussion.
Seriously?  Are we really going to rehash this 43 page thread again?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12330845
That is funny, it seems like we have both reached very different conclusions from reading that thread. lol

The issue is not whether the "DDos protection" is a blacklist or not. The concern is this feature introduces a centrally managed aspect into Bitcoin code. Considering Bitcoin is all about minimizing trust this implementation strikes at the heart of Bitcoin ethos by attempting to plug a trust-dependent function into the protocol.

No matter how you look at it this is bad and should be avoided at all cost.
You can simply just turn it off within the client itself, or even just run a BIP101 only version of XT or even Core instead. It does not add a trust-dependent function into the protocol because it is not implemented on the protocol level.

https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/tree/only-bigblocks

I don't care. The intent is there and this is in line with a long history of Mike Hearn pushing very dangerous and disturbing ideas. Certainly enough for me to never, ever support anything he gravitates around.

In fact, if there is one great thing about Bitcoin XT it's that it has hopefully marked the beginning of the end for any influence he might've had over Bitcoin development.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
It would be, if the benevolent dictator were still a part of it and got his way.  But, clearly, Core devs have a proven track record of rejecting such hideous proposals for very sound reasons -- very publicly documented in threads.  This is part of the reason the dictator created XT.  Remember, Core recently rejected his blacklisting idea just prior to him promoting XT and including the blacklist code in XT.

If the Core team changes, and begins to accept these bad ideas, I'll be recommending people choose an alternative.  Until then, Core is the best code base with the devs who have proven they are dedicated to protecting Bitcoin.  Let's hope it stays that way.
I have shown time and time again unequivocally how XT is not a dictatorship. There are also no blacklists within Bitcoin XT. You are spreading misinformation, this is not conductive towards constructive discussion.
Seriously?  Are we really going to rehash this 43 page thread again?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12330845
That is funny, it seems like we have both reached very different conclusions from reading that thread. lol

The issue is not whether the "DDos protection" is a blacklist or not. The concern is this feature introduces a centrally managed aspect into Bitcoin code. Considering Bitcoin is all about minimizing trust this implementation strikes at the heart of Bitcoin ethos by attempting to plug a trust-dependent function into the protocol.

No matter how you look at it this is bad and should be avoided at all cost.
You can simply just turn it off within the client itself, or even just run a BIP101 only version of XT or even Core instead. It does not add a trust-dependent function into the protocol because it is not implemented on the protocol level.

https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/tree/only-bigblocks
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
It would be, if the benevolent dictator were still a part of it and got his way.  But, clearly, Core devs have a proven track record of rejecting such hideous proposals for very sound reasons -- very publicly documented in threads.  This is part of the reason the dictator created XT.  Remember, Core recently rejected his blacklisting idea just prior to him promoting XT and including the blacklist code in XT.

If the Core team changes, and begins to accept these bad ideas, I'll be recommending people choose an alternative.  Until then, Core is the best code base with the devs who have proven they are dedicated to protecting Bitcoin.  Let's hope it stays that way.
I have shown time and time again unequivocally how XT is not a dictatorship. There are also no blacklists within Bitcoin XT. You are spreading misinformation, this is not conductive towards constructive discussion.
Seriously?  Are we really going to rehash this 43 page thread again?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12330845
That is funny, it seems like we have both reached very different conclusions from reading that thread. lol

The issue is not whether the "DDos protection" is a blacklist or not. The concern is this feature introduces a centrally managed aspect into Bitcoin code. Considering Bitcoin is all about minimizing trust this implementation strikes at the heart of Bitcoin ethos by attempting to plug a trust-dependent function into the protocol.

No matter how you look at it this is bad and should be avoided at all cost.
hero member
Activity: 644
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Just when I comment on the absolute lack of traction merchant acceptance and Bitcoin retail usage has experienced Bitpay announces a complete pivot from their original business plan as they are obviously bleeding cash.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3m40vp/new_features_new_pricing_plans/?sort=confidence
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
It would be, if the benevolent dictator were still a part of it and got his way.  But, clearly, Core devs have a proven track record of rejecting such hideous proposals for very sound reasons -- very publicly documented in threads.  This is part of the reason the dictator created XT.  Remember, Core recently rejected his blacklisting idea just prior to him promoting XT and including the blacklist code in XT.

If the Core team changes, and begins to accept these bad ideas, I'll be recommending people choose an alternative.  Until then, Core is the best code base with the devs who have proven they are dedicated to protecting Bitcoin.  Let's hope it stays that way.
I have shown time and time again unequivocally how XT is not a dictatorship. There are also no blacklists within Bitcoin XT. You are spreading misinformation, this is not conductive towards constructive discussion.
Seriously?  Are we really going to rehash this 43 page thread again?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12330845
That is funny, it seems like we have both reached very different conclusions from reading that thread. lol
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