Author

Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 167. (Read 378996 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


Look Peter it's quite simple, either you accept that for the block size to increase consensus needs to be reach by all actors of the Bitcoin market or you continue pretending that the demand of consumers & merchants for lower cost transactions will move the needle which it won't in that case if they "fork" it will be in their own cheap little altcoin.


You love going around in circles, don't you?  

As knight22 already explained a few times, there's no such thing as perfect consensus.

Do you refuse to accept the possibility that an economic majority will have their way and increase the blocksize even though you don't agree?

 Undecided

The economic majority is the one most interested in keeping the block size small.

The XT #REKT event should have made that clear.

Consumers and merchants are never going to be the economic majority in Bitcoin

Not by themselves, perhaps, but throw a few others into the mix and the picture starts to look a little different.


Larger (than 1MB) blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Anyone who wants to use Bitcoin as a payments network
    VC investors
    Miners
    Merchants
    Payment processors
    Average users in general

Smaller blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Those who want to use Bitcoin as an asset class (i.e. not the average user)
    Those wanting to run full nodes cheaply (i.e. not the average user)
    Those who don't care if the average user is priced off the main chain (i.e. definitely not the average user)


Pretty sure that first group will agree on a proposal before too long.  We'll see if you're right about them not being an economic majority.  

The "picture" might look different because your fabricate it to fit your twisted view of how you believe it should work.

Here's how the decision process unfolds in reality.

Tier 1
Network peers (nodes)
Bitcoin holders

Tier 2
Miners

Tier 3
Exchanges

Tier 4
Everyone else (merchants, payment processors, consumers, redditards, Fidelity & other banking parasites)

TLDR; if you don't have the support of the network peers and the "bitcoin rich list" your fork goes the way of XT which goes the way of Stannis at Winterfell -> #REKT
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Unfortunately, the bitcoin community seems to have a total lack of leadership at present.  From reading many forum posts one might conclude that the bitcoin community is a foolocracy.  (The more conspiratorial inclined may chose to describe the situation as the result of an organized campaign by bitcoin's enemies.)
I am not a Bitcoin enemy but I think Bitcoin is losing its way in getting pushed around with this whole block size debate (that seems to be far more about politics and control rather than anything else).

Patience is the first thing I think those that actually believe in the invention should have - buying coffees for BTC might end up being the final result but it isn't what we should be caring about now.
This debate is about politics and control the sooner we can all come to realize this the sooner this debate will be resolved.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Unfortunately, the bitcoin community seems to have a total lack of leadership at present.  From reading many forum posts one might conclude that the bitcoin community is a foolocracy.  (The more conspiratorial inclined may chose to describe the situation as the result of an organized campaign by bitcoin's enemies.)

I am not a Bitcoin enemy but I think Bitcoin is losing its way in getting pushed around with this whole block size debate (that seems to be far more about politics and control rather than anything else).

Patience is the first thing I think those that actually believe in the invention should have - buying coffees for BTC might end up being the final result but it isn't what we should be caring about now.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?
who said you have to spend bitcoins to make them worth moar?

as long as i hold my private key, bitcoin is fulfilling perfectly what i need it to. Wink
It is not true that no one is using Bitcoin to pay for things. We need to increase the block size so that more people can use it, it is impossible to effectively discriminate between spam and legitimate transactions like remittance for example. We should not attempt to dictate what uses of Bitcoin are legitimate and which are not, Bitcoin is permissionless.

The idea that we do not need to transact in Bitcoin is deeply flawed. Unless you think that Bitcoin is just a way to get rich, that when the price soars we exchange for fiat making us more wealthy. This would make Bitcoin like a pyramid scheme, this is not viable being a zero sum game. This is not how I see Bitcoin and even if I did it would still be flawed since to exchange to fiat and vice versa would still require us to transact, and to enable more people to do this we would still need higher throughput of transactions. I think there is a difference between holding in order to sell for fiat, and holding until we do not need to exchange back to fiat. This would imply that one day we should be able to exchange our Bitcoin for goods and services directly. Which I am already doing today for many things in my life, if the blocksize is not increased over the long term I will lose the ability to transact on the Bitcoin network directly. Because it would become prohibitively expensive and transactions would become unreliable. You can keep repeating that no one uses the Bitcoin network to purchase things as many times as you like, it does not change the reality that many people do use Bitcoin. Including in my own life, which is a counterfactual to your statement.

sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254
Now, let's see, who is going to benefit from the removal of the block size limit.
1) Businesses. Yes, they are likely sitting on a decent network connection and will be able to process more txs and serve more customers.

Maybe you didn't read that BitPay has sacked most of their staff today basically because "there are hardly any customers" (at least not enough to sustain their current business model).

So we should increase the block size for businesses to serve customers that actually "don't exist"?


This is a "chicken and egg" problem.  If you wait for business before building it, they will never come, because they will see there is nothing there.  If you build it, you take a risk and they might not come.  In which case, you are stuck with what you've built.

In the case of a blocksize increase, you are stuck with a few lines of changed code that will cost almost nothing to deploy.  You won't even be stuck with any larger blocks if no business does come, except possibly some spam.  Even some spam won't necessarily be bad, because it might force the software to improve, so as to make more efficient in use of storage, bandwidth, and processing resources.

Unfortunately, the bitcoin community seems to have a total lack of leadership at present.  From reading many forum posts one might conclude that the bitcoin community is a foolocracy.  (The more conspiratorial inclined may chose to describe the situation as the result of an organized campaign by bitcoin's enemies.)


jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


For as long as businesses are playing by the rules, I welcome them.
The current limit needs to prove itself in action before we consider raising it.
Because if nothing prevents the current one from holding, then the same nothing will prevent the new one from staying long either.
Only when another system provides better value proposition beating Bitcoin in every aspect, then Bitcoin needs to raise and adjust.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
as long as i hold my private key, bitcoin is fulfilling perfectly what i need it to. Wink

And clearly there is no need to increase the block size to do that (am actually agreeing with you).
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?



who said you have to spend bitcoins to make them worth moar?

as long as i hold my private key, bitcoin is fulfilling perfectly what i need it to. Wink
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
We should be able to test this empirically: if the theory is true, then, for example, we should never have a sustained period in the future where the total fees collected by miners is significantly greater than the aggregate losses due to orphaning.

1) We definitely should. We must let the pressure build up and see if the network effect alone can hold it. Maybe even let the pressure leave for a while.


The question is whether or not we have a choice.  My prediction is that there will never be a sustained period in the future where aggregate fees are significantly greater than aggregate losses due to orphaning.  The protocol will fork (or demand will leak somewhere else) before this happens.

Let's say "sustained" = more than 6 months and "significantly greater" = more than double.


Oh, that's the third "key"! Grin

The third "key" is the understanding that you have the first "two"!
It's the reason most of the people who understand Bitcoin are into it. The understanding of it's core value proposition is the greatest attractor here. That's by the way where the "economic pressure" comes from in the first place.

Do we have a choice?
Everyone of us personally?
Yes, absolutely!

Now, let's see, who is going to benefit from the removal of the block size limit.
1) Businesses. Yes, they are likely sitting on a decent network connection and will be able to process more txs and serve more customers.
2) Miners. Yes, they will move to a better network connection and be able to process more transactions with fees and gain more profits.
3) Users. Yes and No. It depends.

Users will benefit from the growing economy (driven by the first two categories of players) via profits they derive from the coins they still hold, but they will lose the ability to validate the rules of the game. It's a scenario where the users of Bitcoin become mere consumers. They no longer have a say in the way this particular economic environment operates.

Losing that second "key" (to access and maintain the blockchain in a permissionless way) puts the first "key" (the private one that holds the coins) in danger as well, as the new rules may develop into something that won't allow the users to receive and spend those coins in a permissionless way. That's where the whole ecosystem turns into something that defeats the purpose of Bitcoin in the first place.



Bitcoin (the network) is undoubtedly a "star", that produces bitcoins (the currency) and all the other goods that come with it. What holds the star together? The gravity and the sheer mass of its outer shell. It's the massive network of validating full nodes that prevents the large businesses and miners from colluding and forging the rules, but those active profit-driven players are definitely needed as well.

The only way for Bitcoin to continue as intended (to shine as a "star" that is) is if the mass of its users is well aware of what is it they are doing and why. A proper balance between the two forces in the ecosystem needs to be sought for it to become successful.

Changing the protocol rules is identical to a relatively rare and discreet transition stages that any star undergoes in order to find a new balance point, when the old one no longer serves its accumulated mass. That's when the block size limit needs to be raised. The new limit needs to resonate with the whole ecosystem as it's supposed to represent the interests of the whole. It needs to preserve enough mass in the outer shell (users and validators), but leave enough space and entropy for internal competition (businesses and miners) to continue to produce goods with a higher energy levels than before.

Any protocol change needs to be checked against those three "keys" outlined above in order to preserve the original core value proposition that made the whole system attractive (and brought the economic pressure in) in the first place. If (in case of too small blocks) most of the economic activity moves off-chain (sidechains and such), while actual bitcoins are "parked" somewhere else, then the first "key" is in jeopardy, as people are no longer holding (and transacting with) their bitcoins per se. If (in case of fairly large blocks) too much of the economic activity is happening on-chain, then the second "key" is in danger, as people no longer have permissionless access to blockchain and cannot validate the rules. If people are clueless about the way things are, then the third "key" is missing and they need to find one first. If you managed to get this far and read the above, you got it!

Oh, and by the way, Bitcoin is not above the law, it is The Law and it Reigns Supreme! Grin


http://memecrunch.com/meme/2PXUX/hell-yeah/image.jpg



I guess you meant this! Grin
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
Now, let's see, who is going to benefit from the removal of the block size limit.
1) Businesses. Yes, they are likely sitting on a decent network connection and will be able to process more txs and serve more customers.

Maybe you didn't read that BitPay has sacked most of their staff today basically because "there are hardly any customers" (at least not enough to sustain their current business model).

So we should increase the block size for businesses to serve customers that actually "don't exist"?


There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
We should be able to test this empirically: if the theory is true, then, for example, we should never have a sustained period in the future where the total fees collected by miners is significantly greater than the aggregate losses due to orphaning.

1) We definitely should. We must let the pressure build up and see if the network effect alone can hold it. Maybe even let the pressure leave for a while.


The question is whether or not we have a choice.  My prediction is that there will never be a sustained period in the future where aggregate fees are significantly greater than aggregate losses due to orphaning.  The protocol will fork (or demand will leak somewhere else) before this happens.

Let's say "sustained" = more than 6 months and "significantly greater" = more than double.


Oh, that's the third "key"! Grin

The third "key" is the understanding that you have the first "two"!
It's the reason most of the people who understand Bitcoin are into it. The understanding of it's core value proposition is the greatest attractor here. That's by the way where the "economic pressure" comes from in the first place.

Do we have a choice?
Everyone of us personally?
Yes, absolutely!

Now, let's see, who is going to benefit from the removal of the block size limit.
1) Businesses. Yes, they are likely sitting on a decent network connection and will be able to process more txs and serve more customers.
2) Miners. Yes, they will move to a better network connection and be able to process more transactions with fees and gain more profits.
3) Users. Yes and No. It depends.

Users will benefit from the growing economy (driven by the first two categories of players) via profits they derive from the coins they still hold, but they will lose the ability to validate the rules of the game. It's a scenario where the users of Bitcoin become mere consumers. They no longer have a say in the way this particular economic environment operates.

Losing that second "key" (to access and maintain the blockchain in a permissionless way) puts the first "key" (the private one that holds the coins) in danger as well, as the new rules may develop into something that won't allow the users to receive and spend those coins in a permissionless way. That's where the whole ecosystem turns into something that defeats the purpose of Bitcoin in the first place.



Bitcoin (the network) is undoubtedly a "star", that produces bitcoins (the currency) and all the other goods that come with it. What holds the star together? The gravity and the sheer mass of its outer shell. It's the massive network of validating full nodes that prevents the large businesses and miners from colluding and forging the rules, but those active profit-driven players are definitely needed as well.

The only way for Bitcoin to continue as intended (to shine as a "star" that is) is if the mass of its users is well aware of what is it they are doing and why. A proper balance between the two forces in the ecosystem needs to be sought for it to become successful.

Changing the protocol rules is identical to a relatively rare and discreet transition stages that any star undergoes in order to find a new balance point, when the old one no longer serves its accumulated mass. That's when the block size limit needs to be raised. The new limit needs to resonate with the whole ecosystem as it's supposed to represent the interests of the whole. It needs to preserve enough mass in the outer shell (users and validators), but leave enough space and entropy for internal competition (businesses and miners) to continue to produce goods with a higher energy levels than before.

Any protocol change needs to be checked against those three "keys" outlined above in order to preserve the original core value proposition that made the whole system attractive (and brought the economic pressure in) in the first place. If (in case of too small blocks) most of the economic activity moves off-chain (sidechains and such), while actual bitcoins are "parked" somewhere else, then the first "key" is in jeopardy, as people are no longer holding (and transacting with) their bitcoins per se. If (in case of fairly large blocks) too much of the economic activity is happening on-chain, then the second "key" is in danger, as people no longer have permissionless access to blockchain and cannot validate the rules. If people are clueless about the way things are, then the third "key" is missing and they need to find one first. If you managed to get this far and read the above, you got it!

Oh, and by the way, Bitcoin is not above the law, it is The Law and it Reigns Supreme! Grin





legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Now, let's see, who is going to benefit from the removal of the block size limit.
1) Businesses. Yes, they are likely sitting on a decent network connection and will be able to process more txs and serve more customers.

Maybe you didn't read that BitPay has sacked most of their staff today basically because "there are hardly any customers" (at least not enough to sustain their current business model).

So we should increase the block size for businesses to serve customers that actually "don't exist"?
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
We should be able to test this empirically: if the theory is true, then, for example, we should never have a sustained period in the future where the total fees collected by miners is significantly greater than the aggregate losses due to orphaning.

1) We definitely should. We must let the pressure build up and see if the network effect alone can hold it. Maybe even let the pressure leave for a while.


The question is whether or not we have a choice.  My prediction is that there will never be a sustained period in the future where aggregate fees are significantly greater than aggregate losses due to orphaning.  The protocol will fork (or demand will leak somewhere else) before this happens.

Let's say "sustained" = more than 6 months and "significantly greater" = more than double.


Oh, that's the third "key"! Grin

The third "key" is the understanding that you have the first "two"!
It's the reason most of the people who understand Bitcoin are into it. The understanding of it's core value proposition is the greatest attractor here. That's by the way where the "economic pressure" comes from in the first place.

Do we have a choice?
Everyone of us personally?
Yes, absolutely!

Now, let's see, who is going to benefit from the removal of the block size limit.
1) Businesses. Yes, they are likely sitting on a decent network connection and will be able to process more txs and serve more customers.
2) Miners. Yes, they will move to a better network connection and be able to process more transactions with fees and gain more profits.
3) Users. Yes and No. It depends.

Users will benefit from the growing economy (driven by the first two categories of players) via profits they derive from the coins they still hold, but they will lose the ability to validate the rules of the game. It's a scenario where the users of Bitcoin become mere consumers. They no longer have a say in the way this particular economic environment operates.

Losing that second "key" (to access and maintain the blockchain in a permissionless way) puts the first "key" (the private one that holds the coins) in danger as well, as the new rules may develop into something that won't allow the users to receive and spend those coins in a permissionless way. That's where the whole ecosystem turns into something that defeats the purpose of Bitcoin in the first place.



Bitcoin (the network) is undoubtedly a "star", that produces bitcoins (the currency) and all the other goods that come with it. What holds the star together? The gravity and the sheer mass of its outer shell. It's the massive network of validating full nodes that prevents the large businesses and miners from colluding and forging the rules, but those active profit-driven players are definitely needed as well.

The only way for Bitcoin to continue as intended (to shine as a "star" that is) is if the mass of its users is well aware of what is it they are doing and why. A proper balance between the two forces in the ecosystem needs to be sought for it to become successful.

Changing the protocol rules is identical to a relatively rare and discreet transition stages that any star undergoes in order to find a new balance point, when the old one no longer serves its accumulated mass. That's when the block size limit needs to be raised. The new limit needs to resonate with the whole ecosystem as it's supposed to represent the interests of the whole. It needs to preserve enough mass in the outer shell (users and validators), but leave enough space and entropy for internal competition (businesses and miners) to continue to produce goods with higher energy levels than before.

Any protocol change needs to be checked against those three "keys" outlined above in order to preserve the original core value proposition that made the whole system attractive (and brought the economic pressure in) in the first place. If (in case of too small blocks) most of the economic activity moves off-chain (sidechains and such), while actual bitcoins are "parked" somewhere else, then the first "key" is in jeopardy, as people are no longer holding (and transacting with) their bitcoins per se. If (in case of fairly large blocks) too much of the economic activity is happening on-chain, then the second "key" is in danger, as people no longer have permissionless access to blockchain and cannot validate the rules. If people are clueless about the way things are, then the third "key" is missing and they need to find one first. If you managed to get this far and read the above, you got it!

Oh, and by the way, Bitcoin is not above the law, it is The Law and it Reigns Supreme! Grin
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500


Look Peter it's quite simple, either you accept that for the block size to increase consensus needs to be reach by all actors of the Bitcoin market or you continue pretending that the demand of consumers & merchants for lower cost transactions will move the needle which it won't in that case if they "fork" it will be in their own cheap little altcoin.


You love going around in circles, don't you?  

As knight22 already explained a few times, there's no such thing as perfect consensus.

Do you refuse to accept the possibility that an economic majority will have their way and increase the blocksize even though you don't agree?

 Undecided

The economic majority is the one most interested in keeping the block size small.

The XT #REKT event should have made that clear.

Consumers and merchants are never going to be the economic majority in Bitcoin

Not by themselves, perhaps, but throw a few others into the mix and the picture starts to look a little different.


Larger (than 1MB) blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Anyone who wants to use Bitcoin as a payments network
    VC investors
    Miners
    Merchants
    Payment processors
    Average users in general

Smaller blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Those who want to use Bitcoin as an asset class (i.e. not the average user)
    Those wanting to run full nodes cheaply (i.e. not the average user)
    Those who don't care if the average user is priced off the main chain (i.e. definitely not the average user)

Pretty sure that first group will agree on a proposal before too long.  We'll see if you're right about them not being an economic majority.  
I agree with this statement except for one of the points, smaller blocks does not make Bitcoin a better asset class. The blocksize has absolutely no relationship to how Bitcoin functions as a commodity. Actually it can be argued that smaller blocks will reduce the value of Bitcoin as a commodity since this would also reduce the utility of Bitcoin.

Just to be clear with everyone here, a commodity can also be used as a currency, precious metals in the form ancient coins have served this purpose for humanity for millennia. It has only been in the last century that currency has been separated from also being a commodity, which is why some people might still cling on to this flawed idea that we have inherited from fiat. Which is that Bitcoin must either be a commodity or a currency, this is not the case because the reality is that Bitcoin can do both things just like gold and silver coins did in the ancient world.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Whatever with Bitcoin XT, but blocksize increase MUST happen quite soon.

Why *MUST* it?

You did notice that BitPay has already sacked most of their employees today because basically their business model isn't working (i.e. hardly anyone is buying anything with Bitcoin).



payment processor much?


nahh.. bitcoin be more like:



Cheesy


edit: get lost ph0rkers! you shall not be missed in any case, in any way! dam you altcoin suckerzzz, statist shills and clueless n000bs! Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Whatever with Bitcoin XT, but blocksize increase MUST happen quite soon.

Why *MUST* it?

You did notice that BitPay has already sacked most of their employees today because basically their business model isn't working (i.e. hardly anyone is buying anything with Bitcoin).

I really don't know why having bigger blocks is going to somehow attract more people to use Bitcoin to pay for things (as there is basically no logic to this thinking at all).
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
To Gavin & Mike : resignation letters can be handed to the reception desk.

Time to call Bitcoin XT what it is: the biggest fail in altcoin history
Whatever with Bitcoin XT, but blocksize increase MUST happen quite soon.




meh, no kiddin. if YOU (and all the crying babies) insist..
legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 1014
To Gavin & Mike : resignation letters can be handed to the reception desk.

Time to call Bitcoin XT what it is: the biggest fail in altcoin history
Whatever with Bitcoin XT, but blocksize increase MUST happen quite soon.

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
what would mike tyson want?



Lips sealed
Jump to: