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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 171. (Read 378996 times)

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
lost ph0rked coins makes ours worth moar. Grin

because secured, as in secured from the noobs and their consumerist dreams as we also get less exposed to all corporate scams.

so bring it on b!tches Cool

Your coin will be the worthless one. The coin for the meme generators, the coin for the warriors, the ad hominems, the DoS'ers, the node fakers, the quote fakers.
The chance that your coin will be the valid one is zero.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Bitcoin-NG debuts
Quote
Perhaps the most newsworthy event of the day came during the "Testing, Simulation and Modeling" section of the day's content when Cornell computer science post-grad Ittay Eyal presented Bitcoin-NG, a new proposed solution to scaling the bitcoin network.

Developed by Adem Efe Gencer, Emin Gün Sirer and Robbert Van Renesse, Bitcoin-NG seeks lower latency, higher throughput and better security on the bitcoin network by proposing changes to the bitcoin mining process.

The proposal recommends breaking up the process by which miners are provided both a reward for finding a "nonce", the arbitrary number that decides who wins the 25 BTC reward distributed every 10 minutes, and the process by which those winning miners determine the transactions added to the blockchain.

Bitcoin-NG would create two types of blocks: key blocks, which contain no content but elect a "leader"; and microblocks, which would contain only transaction content.

Bitcoin-NG

"Only the leader can generate the private blocks," Eyal explained. "The interval between the key blocks would be 10 minutes, while 'microblocks' come in every 10 seconds."

Under the system, keyblocks would be given the rewards from the mining block, while 40% of fees would go back to the leader and 60% to those who submit microblocks.

The proposal is still in its early stages and no white paper has yet been released.

that's what i'm talking about!
more crazy idea like this, that's the BIPs we need.

Unless Bitcoin breaks (ie, competitive fees fail to prioritize their tx accordingly) Bitcoin's socioeconomic majority will NEVER agree to shoehorn the network into some untested altcoin framework.

Launch BitcoinNG with its own Genesis Block and I might buy some.  Launch EyalCoin as a potentially fatal XT-style parasite on BTC and I will do everything I can to assure it is likewise #REKT.

The sooner you get over the conceit that Bitcoin is going to be re-engineered by a mob from Reddit, the better.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
I'm not sure exactly how it will happen, but somehow the market will find a way to get bigger blocks.  

There's plenty of space in the alt-blocks and off-chain. 

You don't need to broadcast every Frappuchino you buy to the entire network, where it will be stored and verified until the end of time.

Tell LTC, PPC, XPM, XCN, BBR, XDN, AEON, or XMR about your gluten-free-low-fat-double-chocolate-mint-Oreo-half-caff.  Bitcoin ain't got time for that.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
I am sorry to oversimplify your argument but you are essentially saying that people can not be trusted to make the best decision in terms of what implementation to run. This is however where I believe the fundamental choice and source of the voluntarism of Bitcoin should and does lie.

people can run whatever they want. people can fork the code however they want. but it is incumbent on us -- the community, investors, people who believe in bitcoin and want to be a part of it -- to persuade others not to run irresponsible, shoddy code that has garnered great technical criticism. that is our choice as well.

and i'll be damned if i'm gonna let some silly kids screaming about the sky falling use this alarmist mentality to push through a contentious hard fork that lacks technical merit. nevermind the blacklist issue.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
I've shown these diagrams a lot because I think they reveal the essence of the situation.  If the limit remains to the right of Q*, then it doesn't really matter what the limit is because it does not affect the free market dynamics.  However, if the limit falls to the left of Q*, then the pressure due to the deadweight loss will eventually cause a fork to move the limit back to the right of Q*!  

TL/DR: There is no way to stop Bitcoin from growing.  





Your idealized considerations of spherical blockchains are suitable for academic and altcoin architecture consideration, but serve no positive purpose in the practical matter of Bitcoin's max_block debate.

What you misleadingly mislabel as "deadweight loss" due to a "Political measure" are actually the beneficial artifacts (including anti-spam/DoS externality regulation) of Bitcoin's incentives for creation of fee markets (and the efficiency|antifragility thus accrued).

I'm sure you disagree, so, to avoid a stalemate due to differing opinions, let's appeal to expertise...

You show those diagrams a lot, because you "think they reveal the essence of the situation."

I'm glad you think the "essence" of Bitcoin's Grand Schism can be revealed by a Powerpoint slide or two.

And I'm glad you were able to expose your precious slides to an attentive audience at the first #ScalingBitcoin workshop.

Now, let us consider how many of the experts at that workshop were persuaded by your putative Domination Slide.

Hmm, I can't think of any.  101/XT's slide into oblivion was not paused or halted, and instead accelerated, in the wake of that conference.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
of course let's not sure make sure that Bitcoin is resilient to attacks from totalitarian governments and handicapped internet grids in war-torn countries and other areas of geo-political instabilities. because fuck these people right, they can't have Bitcoin, just too bad they weren't born in cozy north america  Undecided

much rather design it to work only in the la-la land of infinite growth where progress never stops and government are perfectly fine with Bitcoin challenging their monetary sovereignty

have you guys ever opened an history book? do you not see the debacle unfolding before your very eyes on the international scene? do you really imagine that the next decade is going to be some kind of rosy economic prosperity where citizens of the world and their government hold hands and sing kumbaya!?
In terms of resistance against government persecution there are different ways to look at it, I think that adoption is important because of how it relates to decentralization and security. If more people adopt Bitcoin it would by extension lead to more people running full nodes. It would also make Bitcoin more secure from suppression or persecution from governments or other entities. Since the more people that use Bitcoin the more difficult it will become to attack. In the history of file sharing for example, it was in part because of the shear number of people using it that prevented effective persecution, not because of anonymising technologies. More users and uses for Bitcoin gives Bitcoin more value, and therefore by extension more security because of the increased incentive for mining.

How has that worked for the last 2 years and a half? Again you ignore reality and make arguments based on fantasies.

Governments couldn't care less about file sharing, it has no impact on their ability to govern and only affects certain industries.

If you really believe that more Bitcoin adoption and therefore more challenge to the monetary sovereignty will not bring about more attacks and incentive to destroy Bitcoin then you are quite simply utterly clueless.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I never said this.

Here:
that somehow Bitcoins success is guaranteed even if we all just sit on our holdings while having no regard to its utility.

I disagree, I even personally have ideological reasons for why I prefer using cryptocurrency over traditional payment and monetary systems. If I can no longer do this on the Bitcoin blockchain I will simply move to another blockchain that does allow me to do this. Which relates to my point about competition as well.

I don't care if you disagree "for personal reasons". It is still absolutely true. Bitcoin has an absolutely poor value proposition from a consumer standpoint. If you propose the opposite then you are simply not being honest.

I disagree, I prefer Bitcoin. If I could use it for everything I would.

You are part of an microscopic minority. 99% of the world's population will side with me on this

I do care.

I don't care that you do care. Again, you are a minority and your decision will not move the needle one bit.

I am not advocating for pushing dangerous changes to Bitcoin, I actually think that we should not increase the blocksize beyond conservative projected estimates of the technical limitations for running a full node, mainly bandwidth actually. A guideline could be that most people should be able to run a full node from their homes if they live in the developed world. So please do not mischaracterize my views as dangerous unless you do think that what I have just described is actually dangerous.

You have dangerous views because you attempt to politicize everything and are absolutely ignorant of some critical technical details.

It is not a case of either or, Bitcoin can have notable transactional utility and have a sound monetary theory while remaining decentralized and censorship resistant. These properties are not mutually exclusive, they are actually synergistic. It is a false dichotomy to think that we must choose. Increasing the utility of Bitcoin allows it to be a better store of value. Being a better store of value in turn also allows Bitcoin to function more effectively as payment system. Bitcoin can be many things simultaneously and be different things to different people at the same time, we should not try and restrict Bitcoin.

You're fighting a strawman here. You didn't address my point that Bitcoin as a store-of-value has been the driver of economic growth so far and this is absolutely undisputable.

It will take more time for Bitcoin to be more commonly be accepted as a means of exchange, for some people there are certain psychological barriers to overcome considering some of the anarchistic aspects of Bitcoin, currency without centralized authority. For me Bitcoin is much more then currency, it is trust without centralized authority which can be applied to many applications, including currency. For me the political benefits of using Bitcoin as a currency, as well as a store of value, would have profound effects on global economics and political power. Money is power, Bitcoin changes the fundamental nature of power. The benifits of this are not as easily measured because the true cost of the current financial system is borne through externalities like quantitative easing, regulatory capture, inefficiencies, corruption ect.

The currency and means-of-exchange utility will come in due time, but not before Bitcoin has asserted itself as a dominant economic store of wealth. By that I mean that before we can truly enjoy the promises of Bitcoin as a transactional currency we need to increase its market cap by several orders of magnitude

It seems like you are implying that a conservative blocksize increase would compromise monetary freedom when that is not the case. Again you are setting up a false dichotomy, a false choice. Increasing the block size does not compromise monetary freedom.

Yes, blocksize increase under mostly all of the current propositions paraded by their proponents would absolutely lead to the slow death of Bitcoin as a tool for monetary freedom.

I am not making the generalization of what a user is

Yes you are. You argue that without increase in the transaction throughput (block size) Bitcoin cannot attract more users. This is wrong. You pretend that those looking for cheap alternatives will turn to another cryptocurrency and that this is a danger for Bitcoin. This is wrong.

I think that we should account for many different users of Bitcoin not just the "bankers, lawyers, accountants, government officials" whom you however are saying who the users should be which is a much worse generalization to make, furthermore I would consider that "prohibitive" for most people, myself included.

You are misrepresenting what I said. My comment was that the only alternatives for some people or generally capital worldwide to escape capital control is to pay astronomical fees to "bankers, lawyers, accountants, government officials". In contrast, a 20$ transaction fee to transact on the Bitcoin blockchain is negligible, especially when referring to transactions worth millions of dollars.

If the fee market determines that this the price for transacting on the Bitcoin network based on the technical limitations of the time then it would be justified and I would use an altcoin instead.

Your altcoin will be worthless and will likely have no liquidity. You will therefore use an alternative that seeks to leverage the network effect and value of Bitcoin: LN, voting pools, off-chain.

However that would not be the case if we left the limit at one megabyte since that does not presently represent the median of our current technical limitations, since it is just an arbitrary limit after all.

Every limit in Bitcoin is arbitrary, this argument is absolutely worthless. You also ignore that the resources to run a full node are already pushing the limits of some typical household computer and internet connection. Again you show you technical ineptitude by suggesting we use "the median". What we need to target is lower bound. This is a security-critical system whose main property needs to be resiliency, not efficiency. Therefore we plan and design for worst case scenarios.

Gold was used as a currency for millennia and it has been a good store of value for most of its history simultaneously, these concepts are not incompatible and historically has been how human society has operated for the vast majority of recorded history.

Gold was scarcely used as a currency by the common man. They were typically too poor and would use silver or copper.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283

of course let's not sure make sure that Bitcoin is resilient to attacks from totalitarian governments and handicapped internet grids in war-torn countries and other areas of geo-political instabilities. because fuck these people right, they can't have Bitcoin, just too bad they weren't born in cozy north america  Undecided

much rather design it to work only in the la-la land of infinite growth where progress never stops and government are perfectly fine with Bitcoin challenging their monetary sovereignty

have you guys ever opened an history book? do you not see the debacle unfolding before your very eyes on the international scene? do you really imagine that the next decade is going to be some kind of rosy economic prosperity where citizens of the world and their government hold hands and sing kumbaya!?

In terms of resistance against government persecution there are different ways to look at it, I think that adoption is important because of how it relates to decentralization and security. If more people adopt Bitcoin it would by extension lead to more people running full nodes. It would also make Bitcoin more secure from suppression or persecution from governments or other entities. Since the more people that use Bitcoin the more difficult it will become to attack. In the history of file sharing for example, it was in part because of the shear number of people using it that prevented effective persecution, not because of anonymising technologies. More users and uses for Bitcoin gives Bitcoin more value, and therefore by extension more security because of the increased incentive for mining.

So you anticipate that if Bitcoin starts to get traction and take food out of the mouths of the mainstream financial system beneficiaries (financial system corporate, govt, etc) they are going to say: 'Drat!  Those darned geeky hodlers won and there is nothing we can do about it because Freedom.'

Or are you believing that there will be such a world-wide groundswell of support for Bitcoiners that citizens will take up arms against the persecutors and overthrow the evil govts on our behalf?

Are you a fucking idiot?  Or just completely out-of-touch with reality?

I say as I always have that Bitcoin is at it's core a guerrilla currency and we should not slack off on protecting it through it's potential strengths as such.  If I were on the other side of the fence and worried about it (as I would be), I would have taken pains to lull the community into complacency and detract from developments which would strengthen it against attack until a good opportunity to drop the hammer came.  That opportunity would likely come with unrelated opportunities to tighten up on the internet generally as it wormed it's way into a position where it provides a bit more of certain kinds of freedoms than are desirable (thanks in no small part to the cypherpunks.)

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
tvbcof, I think you are on the pessimistic side of the spectrum with regards to how much control the people will let governments have.  The long term historical trend of mankind has been out of darkness and ignorance and toward greater freedom, and that trend is greatly accelerated in the Information Age.  Cryptocurrencies may parabollically increase it even further, and will likely evolve and thwart attempts to control them.  

As far as Peter's wager, don't get it twisted.  It's very straightforward..  no one wants to take the bet.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
Earn with impressio.io
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?


No because these issues did not arise yet so there is no incentive to solve them yet?

It is if you want to increase TPS while preserving decentralization.  I think most people support increasing the block size.  We just want to see a hard fork that addresses scalability holistically, not just one element of it, only to require yet another hard fork to finish the job.  

To be sure, there are some good proposals for improving network efficiency while preserving decentralization and security.  They just require a hard fork, as does increasing the block size.  Let's have ONE hard fork that truly paves the way for scalability.  

XT does not offer the holistic scalability solution we need, and definitely introduces too many risks we don't need.


Which are those proposal? Any doc?

Standardizing efficient block propogation
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability_FAQ#O.281.29_block_propagation

Protecting security while scaling
https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578.pdf
"our findings show that the countermeasure adopted in
Bitcoin XT to prevent the double-spending of fast payments can be
easily circumvented by a resource-constrained adversary."

Ultimate blockchain compression w/ trust-free lite nodes
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ultimate-blockchain-compression-w-trust-free-lite-nodes-88208

Do we have a complete holistic proposal yet?  No, but we know that XT isn't it, and we have some idea what that holistic approach needs to include.  Let's focus on building that holistic consensus proposal, and THEN consider how to introduce it with a had fork, rather than setting us up for many hard forks with a lot of unnecessary risk.
 
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
of course let's not sure make sure that Bitcoin is resilient to attacks from totalitarian governments and handicapped internet grids in war-torn countries and other areas of geo-political instabilities. because fuck these people right, they can't have Bitcoin, just too bad they weren't born in cozy north america  Undecided

much rather design it to work only in the la-la land of infinite growth where progress never stops and government are perfectly fine with Bitcoin challenging their monetary sovereignty

have you guys ever opened an history book? do you not see the debacle unfolding before your very eyes on the international scene? do you really imagine that the next decade is going to be some kind of rosy economic prosperity where citizens of the world and their government hold hands and sing kumbaya!?
In terms of resistance against government persecution there are different ways to look at it, I think that adoption is important because of how it relates to decentralization and security. If more people adopt Bitcoin it would by extension lead to more people running full nodes. It would also make Bitcoin more secure from suppression or persecution from governments or other entities. Since the more people that use Bitcoin the more difficult it will become to attack. In the history of file sharing for example, it was in part because of the shear number of people using it that prevented effective persecution, not because of anonymising technologies. More users and uses for Bitcoin gives Bitcoin more value, and therefore by extension more security because of the increased incentive for mining.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283

By the way, I am still taking 1 BTC bets (subject to deposit in a 2-of-3 escrowed wallet) that the longest proof-of-work chain will contain a block larger than 1 MB by this time next year.  

And still with a high degree of vaugeness about what is meant by 'the longest proof-of-work chain' I see.

I will say that in my mind, a change in protocol which is not agreed to by ALL of the currently active core contributors is not valid and it does not matter if it is long enough to reach from Earth to the edge of the solar system.

Btw if peter would be more serious about this, i'd take the bet.

I am quite serious.  If the longest chain contains a block greater than 1 MB by this time next year I win, otherwise you win.  The longest chain is defined as the chain built on top of the Satoshi genesis block with the greatest cumulative difficulty.  If Bitcoin forks, then I only win if the "large block" fork has a greater cumulative difficulty than the "small block" fork.

As for escrow, I am open to suggestions.  Danny Hamilton and Jonald Fyookball come to mind.  We would each deposit 1 BTC into a 2-of-3 multisig address and the escrow would hold the third key.  

I'd do it.  I'm widely known as someone who is up-front and more than willing to admit my mistakes if evidence proves I've err'd.  One might call me [in Latin] 'arbiter elegantiarum'.

I won't take the bet because as I've mentioned, I, as a staunch 1MB'r, would be delighted to see larger blocks as long as they are safe and necessary.  This would indicate that it has exceeded the realistic capacity to support logical scaling mechanism such as sidechains and actually needs to scale internally.  To wit, I will as mentioned consider the 1MB protocol to be obsolete if I sense that van der Laan, Maxwell, Wuille, Garzik, and Andresen all agree with an update to it.

Like many other clued in analysts and hodlers, it is obvious to me that mining consolidation is the Achille's heal of Bitcoin, and very well may be limiting it's growth at this time.  Simply put, miners operate at the pleasure of the governments under who's jurisdiction they fall.  Were it not for the fact that a reasonable parity of hashing power operates in two competing political and economic jurisdictions (The U.S. + EU-land minions, and China) Bitcoin might already be toast.  As it is, the argument for strength is fairly tenuous and rests on the conjecture that the blockchain holds enduring value which could be realized on re-start after an attack.  I can easily imagine the power structures in China, who probably doesn't care much about Bitcoin one way or another, horse-trading miner attacks for some other geo-political and/or economic goodies in a variety of situations.  Or that it simply may threaten their own internal economic system in ways that are intolerable.

The above mentioned mining consolidation weakness is why I would not take the bet an the 'longest chain' wording.  It is a word-trick and heavily pumped by the likes of Peter R. probably as the next-best hope for destroying Bitcoin after the implosion of the XT/BIP101 attack.  Aside from that the words have no meaning without the all-important 'valid'.  There are work-around to subjugation by political and legal pressure on the consolidated hashing power, but it is unclear how well they would work in practice.

Besides all of the above, I find it more likely than not that Peter R. is not betting with his own money.  It seems highly possible that he is in fact betting with my tax dollars.

edits: slight
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
It seems strange to me that some people do not think that Bitcoin needs to compete with other cryptocurrencies. That Bitcoin somehow exists in a vacuum and does not need to compete in the free market, that somehow Bitcoins success is guaranteed even if we all just sit on our holdings while having no regard to its utility. This in my opinion is not correct, people do care about the cost of the transaction and the present holders of Bitcoin is not all that matters. For Bitcoin to grow and survive it needs to attract more users, when better and cheaper alternatives exists people will choose those instead of Bitcoin. Bitcoin should be able to compete with other cryptocurrencies and I believe that it can as long as we do not allow the Bitcoin network to become overloaded which would lead to transactions becoming unreliable and over the long term prohibitively expensive.

One that you propose here is that without large transaction throughput and high velocity Bitcoin has no utility.
I never said this.

Well "this in my opinion is not correct".
I guess then I agree with this.

While regular retail consumers may care about the cost of transactions, Bitcoin offers little to no advantage in that regard compared to traditional payment and monetary systems.
I disagree, I even personally have ideological reasons for why I prefer using cryptocurrency over traditional payment and monetary systems. If I can no longer do this on the Bitcoin blockchain I will simply move to another blockchain that does allow me to do this. Which relates to my point about competition as well. 

Aside from certain niche use cases (remittances or conventional international money transfer) most people are perfectly fine using credit cards and fiat for their daily purchases. These systems provide consumer protection and security that is hardly possible using Bitcoin.
I disagree, I prefer Bitcoin. If I could use it for everything I would.

While these might be costly and put enormous weight on the financial system as well as shift enormous responsibility & trust toward the institutions running these networks most people could not care less.
I do care.

So essentially what you are doing is pushing for dangerous changes to Bitcoin so that it attempts to compete with systems that are inherently more efficient and scalable given their centralized arrangements. This, to me, is asinine and totally misses the point of what Bitcoin's true value proposition is.
I am not advocating for pushing dangerous changes to Bitcoin, I actually think that we should not increase the blocksize beyond conservative projected estimates of the technical limitations for running a full node, mainly bandwidth actually. A guideline could be that most people should be able to run a full node from their homes if they live in the developed world. So please do not mischaracterize my views as dangerous unless you do think that what I have just described is actually dangerous.

Bitcoin has grown from nothing to a 3.5B$ market cap largely without notable "transactional" utility except for some special uses cases. The reasons for this are obvious to anyone who has been paying attention: its sound monetary theory & its decentralized, censorship-resistant property.
It is not a case of either or, Bitcoin can have notable transactional utility and have a sound monetary theory while remaining decentralized and censorship resistant. These properties are not mutually exclusive, they are actually synergistic. It is a false dichotomy to think that we must choose. Increasing the utility of Bitcoin allows it to be a better store of value. Being a better store of value in turn also allows Bitcoin to function more effectively as payment system. Bitcoin can be many things simultaneously and be different things to different people at the same time, we should not try and restrict Bitcoin.

Since then, a trove of entrepreneurs and venture capitalist have tried to shape Bitcoin into the second coming of Paypal, riding the coattails of its novelty features and permissionless aspects. Remember when 2014 was supposed to be the "year of the merchant"? Expedia, Microsoft, Dell, Overstock, Newegg, etc. Somehow you would think all this "utility" would lead to more adoption right? After all people cant wait to spend their bitcoins and use them to shop online....right..right? Well it turns out that no, they don't. It simply doesn't make sense, other than maybe temporarily as a novelty, to purchase bitcoins to make purchases. It is not convenient or economically desirable. Imagine the amount of money that was wasted trying to sell this "utility" to mainstream customers. Just thinking of the giant fail that was the "Bitpay Bitcoin Bowl" says all that needs to be said. The "customer" is simply not buying it. Bitcoin is still looked at as a freak show by most of the general public, they simply don't care for it.
It will take more time for Bitcoin to be more commonly be accepted as a means of exchange, for some people there are certain psychological barriers to overcome considering some of the anarchistic aspects of Bitcoin, currency without centralized authority. For me Bitcoin is much more then currency, it is trust without centralized authority which can be applied to many applications, including currency. For me the political benefits of using Bitcoin as a currency, as well as a store of value, would have profound effects on global economics and political power. Money is power, Bitcoin changes the fundamental nature of power. The benifits of this are not as easily measured because the true cost of the current financial system is borne through externalities like quantitative easing, regulatory capture, inefficiencies, corruption ect.

As we consider the different avenues we could take it is seemingly clear to me that we always end up at the same point: monetary freedom.

Monetary freedom implies the protection of one's wealth from government inflation, taxes, confiscation or general destructive economic policies. Trace speaks of economic interests in Venezuela and Switzerland using Bitcoin to the tune of millions of dollars to circumvent some of their countries restrictive economic policies. By all account this is what Bitcoin excels at: being a safe haven for one's wealth, an accessible and comparatively cheap way to escape capital controls
It seems like you are implying that a conservative blocksize increase would compromise monetary freedom when that is not the case. Again you are setting up a false dichotomy, a false choice. Increasing the block size does not compromise monetary freedom.

The generalization that you make of what a user is, as if it only relates to transactional interest, is misguided and to some extent downright disingenuous. On the other hand the users I refer to are not some imaginary "mass adoption" fantasy. They are real and are using Bitcoin as we speak. They are not deterred by high transaction fees because they literally have no other options or if they have, they involve costs that are on a whole different level than what you would refer to as "prohibitive" (bankers, lawyers, accountants, government officials).
I am not making the generalization of what a user is, I think that we should account for many different users of Bitcoin not just the "bankers, lawyers, accountants, government officials" whom you however are saying who the users should be which is a much worse generalization to make, furthermore I would consider that "prohibitive" for most people, myself included. If the fee market determines that this the price for transacting on the Bitcoin network based on the technical limitations of the time then it would be justified and I would use an altcoin instead. However that would not be the case if we left the limit at one megabyte since that does not presently represent the median of our current technical limitations, since it is just an arbitrary limit after all. That is why the blocksize should be increased within the extend that it does not compromise decentralization as a whole. Since leaving this restriction in place would lead to more centralization as whole in the form of an increased reliance on off chain transactions and other types of third parties in comparison to the alternative in the case of increased adoption.

No one's disregarding Bitcoin's competition. If someone is it is you as you conveniently ignore readily available and very dominant fiat alternatives for the purpose of "transactional utility".
Again you are saying we should use fiat instead, I am sure that many more people will want to use Bitcoin instead of fiat even if just because of "ideological" reasons. If the majority do not choose financial freedom then that is alright since at least we do still have the choice.

As far as cryptocurrency is concerned there are a multitude of reasons why Bitcoin has little to no competition. If you wish to understand why I suggest this excellent article from Mencius Moldbug about monetary history. While it may not be factually accurate on all points, it certainly is in regard to inherent network effects and how powerful they are in the context of money:

Quote
Once Nitropia is on rhodium, anyone who buys palladium is no different from anyone who is trying to manipulate any commodities market. In a free market, if you want to buy up a bunch of palladium - or wheat or oil or FCOJ - and by so doing raise the price, you may do so. But if you want to actually realize your profits, you have to sell at some point, and there is no reason to think you'll have any luck getting out at a higher price than you got in at. This is called the "burying the corpse" problem, and a thing of beauty it is.

In other words, money is the bubble that doesn't pop. Once rhodium feels the Quickening, any other potential monetary standard is at an incurable disadvantage, because its adherents are mere manipulators. Sooner or later they will get tired and let their guard down, and rhodium will take their heads. But rhodium itself cannot pop - there can be only one, but there has to be at least one. And that's money.
When you research the history of currency, they most certainly can pop. There have been many currencies in history that seemed to have had this "network effect" however they have still failed time and time again. To suggest that Bitcoin has no competition is not accurate, I agree that the network effect in cryptocurrency is strong but it is not invincible. Especially now that true volunteerism and choice exists for currency which previously did not exist. Currency and aspects of macro economic policy can be truly separated from the state in a similiar way that the seperation of church and state has. These are compelling reasons to use Bitcoin as a store of value and as a currency, while maintaining financial freedom and decentralization. Since that would better then using the fiat it seems you think we should use instead, the definition being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

"Fiat money is currency which derives its value from government regulation or law. The term derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be").[1] It differs from commodity money and representative money. Commodity money is created from a good, often a precious metal such as gold or silver, which has uses other than as a medium of exchange (such a good is called a commodity), while representative money simply represents a claim on such a good."

Gold was used as a currency for millennia and it has been a good store of value for most of its history simultaneously, these concepts are not incompatible and historically has been how human society has operated for the vast majority of recorded history.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner

I, want bigger blooooooks!
full member
Activity: 182
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Read this post here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12506336 let it sink in and until you can present a cogent reply to it then I am not wasting my time with you anymore.


Your comment that you referenced while poignant, was likely the best thing I read today. Specifically, concerning the importance of a globally decentralized monetary system to subvert oppressive environments. +1
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
 Cheesy

you two make a nice couple.

of course let's not sure make sure that Bitcoin is resilient to attacks from totalitarian governments and handicapped internet grids in war-torn countries and other areas of geo-political instabilities. because fuck these people right, they can't have Bitcoin, just too bad they weren't born in cozy north america  Undecided

much rather design it to work only in the la-la land of infinite growth where progress never stops and government are perfectly fine with Bitcoin challenging their monetary sovereignty

have you guys ever opened an history book? do you not see the debacle unfolding before your very eyes on the international scene? do you really imagine that the next decade is going to be some kind of rosy economic prosperity where citizens of the world and their government hold hands and sing kumbaya!?

do you still believe in the tooth fairy?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
Bitcoin-NG debuts
Quote
Perhaps the most newsworthy event of the day came during the "Testing, Simulation and Modeling" section of the day's content when Cornell computer science post-grad Ittay Eyal presented Bitcoin-NG, a new proposed solution to scaling the bitcoin network.

Developed by Adem Efe Gencer, Emin Gün Sirer and Robbert Van Renesse, Bitcoin-NG seeks lower latency, higher throughput and better security on the bitcoin network by proposing changes to the bitcoin mining process.

The proposal recommends breaking up the process by which miners are provided both a reward for finding a "nonce", the arbitrary number that decides who wins the 25 BTC reward distributed every 10 minutes, and the process by which those winning miners determine the transactions added to the blockchain.

Bitcoin-NG would create two types of blocks: key blocks, which contain no content but elect a "leader"; and microblocks, which would contain only transaction content.

Bitcoin-NG

"Only the leader can generate the private blocks," Eyal explained. "The interval between the key blocks would be 10 minutes, while 'microblocks' come in every 10 seconds."

Under the system, keyblocks would be given the rewards from the mining block, while 40% of fees would go back to the leader and 60% to those who submit microblocks.

The proposal is still in its early stages and no white paper has yet been released.

that's what i'm talking about!
more crazy idea like this, that's the BIPs we need.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?


No because these issues did not arise yet so there is no incentive to solve them yet?

It is if you want to increase TPS while preserving decentralization.  I think most people support increasing the block size.  We just want to see a hard fork that addresses scalability holistically, not just one element of it, only to require yet another hard fork to finish the job.  

To be sure, there are some good proposals for improving network efficiency while preserving decentralization and security.  They just require a hard fork, as does increasing the block size.  Let's have ONE hard fork that truly paves the way for scalability.  

XT does not offer the holistic scalability solution we need, and definitely introduces too many risks we don't need.


Which are those proposal? Any doc?
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
Earn with impressio.io
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking. 

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread. 

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?


No because these issues did not arise yet so there is no incentive to solve them yet?

It is if you want to increase TPS while preserving decentralization.  I think most people support increasing the block size.  We just want to see a hard fork that addresses scalability holistically, not just one element of it, only to require yet another hard fork to finish the job. 

To be sure, there are some good proposals for improving network efficiency while preserving decentralization and security.  They just require a hard fork, as does increasing the block size.  Let's have ONE hard fork that truly paves the way for scalability.   

XT does not offer the holistic scalability solution we need, and definitely introduces too many risks we don't need.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
I'm not so sure that altcoins have a lot more throughput than Bitcoin after reading this summary of testnet limitations of BitShare 2.0, which is claiming it an reach 100k TPS in the real-world:
Bitshares full nodes are very different to Bitcoin. Bitshares is delegated proof of stake, as far as I understand it there are only 100 full nodes which are incentivized and voted into position by the users based on the amount they hold. Other examples would be Dash which has fully incentivized full nodes implemented in a more decentralized fashion compared to Bitcoin. Ethereum also has some interesting solutions to scalability as well.
Yes, and that is sort of my point.  You can throw out PoW, relieving a lot of CPU/GPU/ASIC intensive work (without getting into security implications), and, like Bitcoin, the primary bottlenck is still networking.  
I am not referring to PoW in these examples, I was referring to full nodes which are dealing with the primary bottleneck of networking.
At the cost of sacrificing decentralization.  This is just trying to find a happy place between Bitcoin and Visa.  Yet, it is clear that they acknowledge, that the primary issue is networking.  

We agree on the primary point.  So, let's apply that to the discussions on this thread.  

Does XT solve the primary scalability issue facing Bitcoin today... networking load and latency?

Right Exactly!

the block size debate is kinda besides the point, block should be as big as they need too, period the end. and we should be focused on solving this core issue.

the scalability debate should be more about,figuring out what the "max load"  or "min requirements" we expect from full node users ( 15MBPS + reasonable computer?? ) and reducing the load to accommodate as much traffic as possible.

The min requirement is simple: being able to run a node over an anonymous low-bandwidth connection

Quote
I’d ignore mundane expenses like hardware and power. Instead, recall that, if a full node cannot be run anonymously, “the network” (full node entry) is effectively controlled by law enforcement, a central entity. Therefore, my view is that the current largest “cost” (and current bottleneck to Bitcoin scalability) is therefore the threat of persecution.

By low bandwidth you mean a 56K external modem? You never answered my questions about how do you plan to make the protocol measure the "cost" of running a node btw.

he wants full node to run behind TOR which is retardedly slow, he's bonkers.

go make a shit coin brg444, we want to make a really good digital currency not enable childporn.

Hey brg444, why don't you go create Torcoin? I'm sure there will be a niche for it. I might buy some.
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