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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 222. (Read 378999 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
A totalitarian power grab for the governance of Bitcoin. Not the proposition of a new implementation but an attempt a hijacking the consensus code behind political motives
From the other part of view we have a group of people that want to hijacking the consensus by forcing users/market on going only on something new and untested (as lightening networks) and it is behind financial motives.  Roll Eyes

I wonder who that would be  Huh

Are you trolls not tired of resorting to the ol' Blockstream boggeyman to justify your arguments?

Has it not been made clear enough that they stand to lose absolutely nothing by increasing the block size?

I know disingenuity is par for the course for XT supporters but don't you have anything better than conjecture and ignorance to back up your position?
staff
Activity: 4270
Merit: 1209
I support freedom of choice
Of course not. But in typical dictator fashion they have managed to use their authority, PR & industry relations to instill false expectations into more simple users and steer the masses to get behind them against a "common enemy" on the premise of "inclusion" and general abuse of the sever misunderstanding of your typical redditor.

They absolutely have a right to release different code but it should stand on its own and not require a complete propaganda campaign.
Thank you, now we know that the multimillionaire industry of Bitcoin is full of idiots that are diverted thanks to Gavin.

Sure.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
What is wrong with the goal of decentralizing development across multiple competing implementations?



Nothing, but that is absolutely not what is happening. I know this is your new talking point Peter but it doesn't reflect on the situation at hand:

A totalitarian power grab for the governance of Bitcoin. Not the proposition of a new implementation but an attempt a hijacking the consensus code behind political motives



It IS a proposition. No one is being forced into it. Are you?

Of course not. But in typical dictator fashion they have managed to use their authority, PR & industry relations to instill false expectations into more simple users and steer the masses to get behind them against a "common enemy" on the premise of "inclusion" and general abuse of the sever misunderstanding of your typical redditor.

They absolutely have a right to release different code but it should stand on its own and not require a complete propaganda campaign.
staff
Activity: 4270
Merit: 1209
I support freedom of choice
A totalitarian power grab for the governance of Bitcoin. Not the proposition of a new implementation but an attempt a hijacking the consensus code behind political motives
From the other part of view we have a group of people that want to hijacking the consensus by forcing users/market on going only on something new and untested (as lightening networks) and it is behind financial motives.  Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
What is wrong with the goal of decentralizing development across multiple competing implementations?



There are no problems and it is in fact very healthy for a decentralized system. We wanted decentralization? Now we have it hard but those emotionally attached to Core are shitting their pants for overblown fear mongered reasons.
I absolutly agree with this! Having more options for alternative clients increases decentralization. This is a political necessity for the reosons of decentralization and freedom, whether you agree with Bitcoin XT or not.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Y'know, taking a step back from it all, these XT guys are real pushy characters. Kinda seems like they'll offer you anything really, it's just gotta be using their super-free alt-client

Where'd they train you all up, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientology?  Cheesy
Carlton Banks, I was expecting more from you. You even said that I was being reasonable in our previous discussion. There is no need for ad hominem. Most of us are now at least agreeing on increasing the block size, which is a great relieve to me. I still prefer BIP101 though, BIP100 is an acceptable compromise however. I would have preferred it if there was no 32meg limit in BIP100, since in a few years we will have to go through all of this again, and consensus will most likely be even more difficult to reach in the future, which might even cause a split. Just letting the miners decide is fine with me since they are incentivized to do what is best for Bitcoin after all. I can trust proof of work more then any developer team lol.

on-topic, there are a large number of people still promoting this alt-client dev team takeover, and you want to invoke the moral high ground against me on the basis of the blocksize debate?
I am not sure how I am invoking any moral high ground. I do not think I am incorrect that you were using ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy and has nothing to do with morals. However I do still prefer BIP101 and I do not think that reaching 75% consensus should be considered an alt-client dev team take over. But in the interests of compromise I would support BIP100 instead, with some reservations I have already pointed out. We might end up on the same side of the fork after all Carlton! Huzzah! Smiley

cheerful avoidance of a direct accusation? check
attempt to establish the blocksize debate as the contentious issue? check (twice you've pulled the same trick, is it not just a massively cheap move to do it a second time?)

I invite those reading this to take this is they find it
I have a background in philosophy so I do take such an accusation seriously. I was specifically referring to you saying this:

"Y'know, taking a step back from it all, these XT guys are real pushy characters. Kinda seems like they'll offer you anything really, it's just gotta be using their super-free alt-client. Where'd they train you all up, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientology?"

So you are accusing me of taking the moral high ground, because of what I said in response to this quote. This quote is ad hominem because you are not making an argument and you are just attacking the people that are making the argument instead. Because I said this you are now saying that I am avoiding a direct accusation, and taking the moral high ground? Since I have done no such thing, I do not even use morals in argumentation, I use ethics and I have certainly not invoked them here. I challenge you to point out to me specifically where I invoke the moral high ground against you on the basis of the blocksize debate? I do not even understand what you are trying to do here? I thought we where being civil after that last discussion we had?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
What is wrong with the goal of decentralizing development across multiple competing implementations?



Nothing, but that is absolutely not what is happening. I know this is your new talking point Peter but it doesn't reflect on the situation at hand:

A totalitarian power grab for the governance of Bitcoin. Not the proposition of a new implementation but an attempt a hijacking the consensus code behind political motives



It IS a proposition. No one is being forced into it. Are you?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
What is wrong with the goal of decentralizing development across multiple competing implementations?



Nothing, but that is absolutely not what is happening. I know this is your new talking point (a very tired strawman btw) Peter but it doesn't reflect on the situation at hand:

A totalitarian power grab for the governance of Bitcoin. Not the proposition of a new implementation but an attempt a hijacking the consensus code behind political motives

Please don't turn into Stolfi you are a valuable asset to this community when your head is in the right place
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
What is wrong with the goal of decentralizing development across multiple competing implementations?



There are no problems and it is in fact very healthy for a decentralized system. We wanted decentralization? Now we have it hard but those emotionally attached to Core are shitting their pants for overblown fear mongered reasons.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
What is wrong with the goal of decentralizing development across multiple competing implementations?

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3083
Y'know, taking a step back from it all, these XT guys are real pushy characters. Kinda seems like they'll offer you anything really, it's just gotta be using their super-free alt-client

Where'd they train you all up, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientology?  Cheesy
Carlton Banks, I was expecting more from you. You even said that I was being reasonable in our previous discussion. There is no need for ad hominem. Most of us are now at least agreeing on increasing the block size, which is a great relieve to me. I still prefer BIP101 though, BIP100 is an acceptable compromise however. I would have preferred it if there was no 32meg limit in BIP100, since in a few years we will have to go through all of this again, and consensus will most likely be even more difficult to reach in the future, which might even cause a split. Just letting the miners decide is fine with me since they are incentivized to do what is best for Bitcoin after all. I can trust proof of work more then any developer team lol.

on-topic, there are a large number of people still promoting this alt-client dev team takeover, and you want to invoke the moral high ground against me on the basis of the blocksize debate?
I am not sure how I am invoking any moral high ground. I do not think I am incorrect that you were using ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy and has nothing to do with morals. However I do still prefer BIP101 and I do not think that reaching 75% consensus should be considered an alt-client dev team take over. But in the interests of compromise I would support BIP100 instead, with some reservations I have already pointed out. We might end up on the same side of the fork after all Carlton! Huzzah! Smiley

cheerful avoidance of a direct accusation? check
attempt to establish the blocksize debate as the contentious issue? check (twice you've pulled the same trick, is it not just a massively cheap move to do it a second time?)

I invite those reading this to take this is they find it
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
since in a few years we will have to go through all of this again, and consensus will most likely be even more difficult to reach in the future, which might even cause a split.

This seems to be a big sticking point for XT supporters. It's completely unrealistic that the technical aspects of the bitcoin project will not be further debated in the future, or that we won't see future hard forks after this. Obviously this experience was so "painful" for many that they just don't want to experience it again. Sorry, but that's part of consensus. Forcing all questions now really doesn't mean there won't be problems in the future......

And why can't there be an even split now? Wink

Not a very strong argument against a hard fork later but in favor of one now.....
You make good points, It is true that the feasibility of hard forks in the future is definitely a sticking point for me. I have a background in political philosophy, maybe that plays a part in why I think this way. But i do agree with you in principle actually, if there is a fundamental disagreement within the Bitcoin community the best way to resolve it, would be to split Bitcoin in half or in whatever way is appropriate depending on the ideologies of its participants. That way there would be no tyranny of the majority, which is a beautiful political solution that is contained within Bitcoin. I would however prefer it if this did not happen so early in Bitcoins development especially if it is possible to come to an agreement about something like the block size which should be a relatively easy question, compared to the questions that will most likely challenge the consensus in the future.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Y'know, taking a step back from it all, these XT guys are real pushy characters. Kinda seems like they'll offer you anything really, it's just gotta be using their super-free alt-client

Where'd they train you all up, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientology?  Cheesy
Carlton Banks, I was expecting more from you. You even said that I was being reasonable in our previous discussion. There is no need for ad hominem. Most of us are now at least agreeing on increasing the block size, which is a great relieve to me. I still prefer BIP101 though, BIP100 is an acceptable compromise however. I would have preferred it if there was no 32meg limit in BIP100, since in a few years we will have to go through all of this again, and consensus will most likely be even more difficult to reach in the future, which might even cause a split. Just letting the miners decide is fine with me since they are incentivized to do what is best for Bitcoin after all. I can trust proof of work more then any developer team lol.

on-topic, there are a large number of people still promoting this alt-client dev team takeover, and you want to invoke the moral high ground against me on the basis of the blocksize debate?
I am not sure how I am invoking any moral high ground. I do not think I am incorrect that you were using ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy and has nothing to do with morals. However I do still prefer BIP101 and I do not think that reaching 75% consensus should be considered an alt-client dev team take over. But in the interests of compromise I would support BIP100 instead, with some reservations I have already pointed out. We might end up on the same side of the fork after all Carlton! Huzzah! Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Care to back up the "sheer incompetence" statement with facts? Or do you usually like to pull stuff out of your ass?

Bitcoin XT being DOA is proof enough of their incompetence.

What about the rest of their work? Still incompetence?

Misleading? Again pulling statements our of your ass because in my view a "misleading" move would be to say that they blocks will grow to 8MB, but instead they grow to 100MB. That is misleading! But good thing that we have the open source and that everyone can check on the code so the misleading statement is impossible!

Misleading is creating false urgency and engineering spam attacks in the background.[/quote]

Proof that they engineered spam attacks? In your ass again?

Dangerous? Who are you to decide what's the best interest of other people?

So by your logic if there is a group of people (meaning 100+ or 1000+ or 10k+) that would like to use the XT fork they shouldn't do it? Why are you forcing everyone to use the Core fork/implementation? If they decide that they want to use the XT fork they are free to do it, no matter what someone like you says! Let's leave those that want to use the XT fork to do it! I am not forcing you to use Monero just because privacy. I would like to see that from you too, but I am sure that you are unable to do that!
sr. member
Activity: 400
Merit: 250
since in a few years we will have to go through all of this again, and consensus will most likely be even more difficult to reach in the future, which might even cause a split.

This seems to be a big sticking point for XT supporters. It's completely unrealistic that the technical aspects of the bitcoin project will not be further debated in the future, or that we won't see future hard forks after this. Obviously this experience was so "painful" for many that they just don't want to experience it again. Sorry, but that's part of consensus. Forcing all questions now really doesn't mean there won't be problems in the future......

And why can't there be an even split now? Wink

Not a very strong argument against a hard fork later but in favor of one now.....
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3083
Y'know, taking a step back from it all, these XT guys are real pushy characters. Kinda seems like they'll offer you anything really, it's just gotta be using their super-free alt-client

Where'd they train you all up, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientology?  Cheesy
Carlton Banks, I was expecting more from you. You even said that I was being reasonable in our previous discussion. There is no need for ad hominem. Most of us are now at least agreeing on increasing the block size, which is a great relieve to me. I still prefer BIP101 though, BIP100 is an acceptable compromise however. I would have preferred it if there was no 32meg limit in BIP100, since in a few years we will have to go through all of this again, and consensus will most likely be even more difficult to reach in the future, which might even cause a split. Just letting the miners decide is fine with me since they are incentivized to do what is best for Bitcoin after all. I can trust proof of work more then any developer team lol.

on-topic, there are a large number of people still promoting this alt-client dev team takeover, and you want to invoke the moral high ground against me on the basis of the blocksize debate? That's a thin premise. You're either ignorant or dishonest, reveal it
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Even if Bitcoin XT does not reach consensus it was still a good thing for Bitcoin. Since it has so far been a catalyst for change, in response to a Core development team which has reached a stalemate who have so far been unwilling to increase the block size. Since forking away from the Core development team should never be considered intrinsically wrong. Since It is the political mechanism that exist within Bitcoin that truly ensures its freedom and decentralization, otherwise the development team would essentially have absolute power over the development of Bitcoin, this would most certainly not be in line with the principles of decentralization and freedom.
sr. member
Activity: 400
Merit: 250
Y'know, taking a step back from it all, these XT guys are real pushy characters. Kinda seems like they'll offer you anything really, it's just gotta be using their super-free alt-client

Where'd they train you all up, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientology?  Cheesy

In comparison to the Core guys being ultra paranoiac, conservative, fear mongering characters  Wink

I'd say there are some pretty fair criticisms of the XT client that wouldn't constitute paranoia or fear-mongering. I am not a "Core guy". But I don't support XT.

I also think there is nothing wrong with taking a conservative approach when there is so much damn money on the line. People have this absurd idea that this will be the last fork ever for bitcoin -- that's a joke. We will no doubt encounter problems in the future that have not even been fathomed. Let alone the potential problems that different solutions to scalability present.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Y'know, taking a step back from it all, these XT guys are real pushy characters. Kinda seems like they'll offer you anything really, it's just gotta be using their super-free alt-client

Where'd they train you all up, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientology?  Cheesy
Carlton Banks, I was expecting more from you. You even said that I was being reasonable in our previous discussion. There is no need for ad hominem. Most of us are now at least agreeing on increasing the block size, which is a great relieve to me. I still prefer BIP101 though, BIP100 is an acceptable compromise however. I would have preferred it if there was no 32meg limit in BIP100, since in a few years we will have to go through all of this again, and consensus will most likely be even more difficult to reach in the future, which might even cause a split. Just letting the miners decide is fine with me since they are incentivized to do what is best for Bitcoin after all. I can trust proof of work more then any developer team lol.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Care to back up the "sheer incompetence" statement with facts? Or do you usually like to pull stuff out of your ass?

Bitcoin XT being DOA is proof enough of their incompetence.

Misleading? Again pulling statements our of your ass because in my view a "misleading" move would be to say that they blocks will grow to 8MB, but instead they grow to 100MB. That is misleading! But good thing that we have the open source and that everyone can check on the code so the misleading statement is impossible!

Misleading is creating false urgency and engineering spam attacks in the background.

Dangerous? Who are you to decide what's the best interest of other people?

Dangerous : Bitcoin XT

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hp190/charlie_lee_nuclear_option_of_forking_the/cu9e4tj
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