Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 62.

VeritasSapere

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Quote from: brg444 on November 26, 2015, 02:06:48 PM

Quote from: knight22 on November 26, 2015, 01:55:31 PM

Quote from: hdbuck on November 26, 2015, 01:17:54 PM

Quote from: knight22 on November 26, 2015, 12:47:01 PM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 12:04:03 PM

You are actually supporting XT and huge blocks. You are among the last standing supporters. Even knight appears to run out of time for this.

Really? https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3u9moq/gavin_andresen_i_might_take_over_lead_of_bitcoin/

I don’t run out of time for this but arguing at this point is useless. Most people are in “wait and see” mode until December. If a consensus doesn’t emerge after that workshop, then Core will be forked by the industry.

inb4 corpcoin. Grin

[img]http://-snip-[img]

So there will be corpcoin and nichecoin. The choice will be yours.

In other words a beat down Honda vs. a Ferrari. I know which one I choose Cheesy

I would choose the Honda, less expensive and more reliable.

brg444

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Activity: 644

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: knight22 on November 26, 2015, 01:55:31 PM

Quote from: hdbuck on November 26, 2015, 01:17:54 PM

Quote from: knight22 on November 26, 2015, 12:47:01 PM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 12:04:03 PM

You are actually supporting XT and huge blocks. You are among the last standing supporters. Even knight appears to run out of time for this.

Really? https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3u9moq/gavin_andresen_i_might_take_over_lead_of_bitcoin/

I don’t run out of time for this but arguing at this point is useless. Most people are in “wait and see” mode until December. If a consensus doesn’t emerge after that workshop, then Core will be forked by the industry.

inb4 corpcoin. Grin

[img]http://-snip-[img]

So there will be corpcoin and nichecoin. The choice will be yours.

In other words a beat down Honda vs. a Ferrari. I know which one I choose Cheesy

VeritasSapere

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Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: brg444 on November 26, 2015, 01:58:37 PM

Meanwhile BIP65 well on its way to achieve 100% miners consensus, something VS previously deemed "impossible"

https://data.bitcoinity.org/bitcoin/block_version/5y?c=block_version&r=week&t=a

Such a high degree of consensus is impossible for contentious changes. I have never said that such a high degree of consensus is impossible for changes that are not contentious. Please get it right, otherwise you are just constructing another straw man.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Meanwhile BIP65 well on its way to achieve 100% miners consensus, something VS previously deemed "impossible"

https://data.bitcoinity.org/bitcoin/block_version/5y?c=block_version&r=week&t=a

knight22

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Activity: 1372

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--------------->¿?

Quote from: hdbuck on November 26, 2015, 01:17:54 PM

Quote from: knight22 on November 26, 2015, 12:47:01 PM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 12:04:03 PM

You are actually supporting XT and huge blocks. You are among the last standing supporters. Even knight appears to run out of time for this.

Really? https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3u9moq/gavin_andresen_i_might_take_over_lead_of_bitcoin/

I don’t run out of time for this but arguing at this point is useless. Most people are in “wait and see” mode until December. If a consensus doesn’t emerge after that workshop, then Core will be forked by the industry.

inb4 corpcoin. Grin

[img]http://-snip-[img]

So there will be corpcoin and nichecoin. The choice will be yours.

hdbuck

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1002

Quote from: knight22 on November 26, 2015, 12:47:01 PM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 12:04:03 PM

You are actually supporting XT and huge blocks. You are among the last standing supporters. Even knight appears to run out of time for this.

Really? https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3u9moq/gavin_andresen_i_might_take_over_lead_of_bitcoin/

I don’t run out of time for this but arguing at this point is useless. Most people are in “wait and see” mode until December. If a consensus doesn’t emerge after that workshop, then Core will be forked by the industry.

inb4 corpcoin. Grin

VeritasSapere

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Activity: 546

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Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 12:04:03 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 11:54:53 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 11:52:58 AM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:48:59 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 03:53:33 AM

You lost badly. Just admit it.

So when you say that I have lost, I personally do not see it as being so adversarial though. The main thing however that I have been advocating for is the freedom of choice. So if I have lost does that mean the freedom of choice has lost? Does that not mean then that we have all lost?

What freedom of choice Cheesy

, you're clearly advocating for XT and huge blocks. So, if I get it correctly, if I am supporting freedom of choice then I should support XT, right? If I'm not supporting XT, then I'm a totalitarian. Huh

Because Bitcoin survived this social attack, we have all won Grin

Except you perhaps...

I support multiple implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, regardless of their content, this is what gives people the freedom of choice. Only having one choice in an election is the equivalent of totalitarianism after all.

You don't need to do that. Bitcoin Core is a free and open source software. Even if it's developers would be tyrants seeking to destroy anyone who would not use their software, you would be free to fork it, thus creating another implementation of the Bitcoin protocol. This is guaranteed by it's licensing. You can read that.

You are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you are saying that I do not need to do that, which by I presume you are referring to supporting and creating alternative implementations. Yet on the other hand you are saying that this is what guarantees Bitcoins freedom which I do actually agree with. You are actually contradicting yourself here since this is exactly what Gavin and Mike did do.

So what then are you actually disagreeing with? We both have the free choice to support any alternative implementation that we want. I was also arguing against the people who are trying to convince the community that we should not have this choice, this is where the danger of totalitarianism lies, being convinced that we do not have the freedom of choice, through appeals to authority and reverence towards Core.

knight22

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Activity: 1372

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--------------->¿?

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 12:04:03 PM

You are actually supporting XT and huge blocks. You are among the last standing supporters. Even knight appears to run out of time for this.

Really? https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3u9moq/gavin_andresen_i_might_take_over_lead_of_bitcoin/

I don’t run out of time for this but arguing at this point is useless. Most people are in “wait and see” mode until December. If a consensus doesn’t emerge after that workshop, then Core will be forked by the industry.

knight22

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1000

--------------->¿?

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 11:52:58 AM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:48:59 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 03:53:33 AM

You lost badly. Just admit it.

So when you say that I have lost, I personally do not see it as being so adversarial though. The main thing however that I have been advocating for is the freedom of choice. So if I have lost does that mean the freedom of choice has lost? Does that not mean then that we have all lost?

What freedom of choice Cheesy

, you're clearly advocating for XT and huge blocks. So, if I get it correctly, if I am supporting freedom of choice then I should support XT, right? If I'm not supporting XT, then I'm a totalitarian. Huh

Because Bitcoin survived this social attack, we have all won Grin

Except you perhaps...

There is no such thing as a social attack with bitcoin. Bitcoin is a tool and people can do whatever they want with it such as modify the consensus rules among participants.

valiz

sr. member

Activity: 471

Merit: 250

BTC trader

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 11:54:53 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 11:52:58 AM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:48:59 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 03:53:33 AM

You lost badly. Just admit it.

So when you say that I have lost, I personally do not see it as being so adversarial though. The main thing however that I have been advocating for is the freedom of choice. So if I have lost does that mean the freedom of choice has lost? Does that not mean then that we have all lost?

What freedom of choice Cheesy

, you're clearly advocating for XT and huge blocks. So, if I get it correctly, if I am supporting freedom of choice then I should support XT, right? If I'm not supporting XT, then I'm a totalitarian. Huh

Because Bitcoin survived this social attack, we have all won Grin

Except you perhaps...

I support multiple implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, regardless of their content, this is what gives people the freedom of choice. Only having one choice in an election is the equivalent of totalitarianism after all.

You don't need to do that. Bitcoin Core is a free and open source software. Even if it's developers would be tyrants seeking to destroy anyone who would not use their software, you would be free to fork it, thus creating another implementation of the Bitcoin protocol. This is guaranteed by it's licensing. You can read that.

Quote

The MIT License (MIT)

Copyright (c) 2009-2015 The Bitcoin Core developers

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

[...]

You are actually supporting XT and huge blocks. You are among the last standing supporters. Even knight appears to run out of time for this.

VeritasSapere

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 11:52:58 AM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:48:59 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 03:53:33 AM

You lost badly. Just admit it.

So when you say that I have lost, I personally do not see it as being so adversarial though. The main thing however that I have been advocating for is the freedom of choice. So if I have lost does that mean the freedom of choice has lost? Does that not mean then that we have all lost?

What freedom of choice Cheesy

, you're clearly advocating for XT and huge blocks. So, if I get it correctly, if I am supporting freedom of choice then I should support XT, right? If I'm not supporting XT, then I'm a totalitarian. Huh

Because Bitcoin survived this social attack, we have all won Grin

Except you perhaps...

I support multiple implementations of the Bitcoin protocol for people to choose from, regardless of their content, this is what gives people the freedom of choice. Only having one choice in an election is the equivalent of totalitarianism after all.

valiz

sr. member

Activity: 471

Merit: 250

BTC trader

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:48:59 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 03:53:33 AM

You lost badly. Just admit it.

So when you say that I have lost, I personally do not see it as being so adversarial though. The main thing however that I have been advocating for is the freedom of choice. So if I have lost does that mean the freedom of choice has lost? Does that not mean then that we have all lost?

What freedom of choice Cheesy

, you're clearly advocating for XT and huge blocks. So, if I get it correctly, if I am supporting freedom of choice then I should support XT, right? If I'm not supporting XT, then I'm a totalitarian. Huh

Because Bitcoin survived this social attack, we have all won Grin

Except you perhaps...

VeritasSapere

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: gmaxwell on November 25, 2015, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: brg444 on November 23, 2015, 06:19:48 PM

That's supposed to tell us what exactly? That under the most optimal technical environment "the network" can substain large blocks?
I'm shocked Shocked

Actually, no, they've been having huge problems with it; with nodes crashing all over the place and such. Of course: Bitcoin Core nodes on testnet are unaffected: They're just ignoring the XT chain entirely, banning those peers, and continuing on as if they didn't exist.

If hypothetically more then seventy five percent of the miners supported BIP101 after January. Would Core recognize the will of the economic majority and implement BIP101? If you would implement BIP101 under such conditions you will have my full support. However if you intend to ignore the economic majority and still attempt to push your own agenda while circumventing and undermining the proof of work consensus then I will accuse Core of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it Greg Maxwell, can you answer this question?

Carlton Banks

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Activity: 3430

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Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:48:59 AM

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 03:53:33 AM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 25, 2015, 11:56:40 AM

Just like was said before, for this disagreement only the blocksize can be changed, which is only a few lines of code, in the case of BIP101 this has already been coded by Gavin. Which gives people the freedom of choice by simply applying the patch on top of either Core or XT. Changing more then the blocksize also further unnecessarily complicates things when it comes to this disagreement at least. You also forgot to attack BTCD since they are also now supporting an increased blocksize as well.

https://github.com/btcsuite/btcd

You lost badly. Just admit it.

So when you say that I have lost, I personally do not see it as being so adversarial though. The main thing however that I have been advocating for is the freedom of choice. So if I have lost does that mean the freedom of choice has lost? Does that not mean then that we have all lost?

What, because we all got the answer wrong? (according to your version of reality)

No-one that isn't either ignorant to the logical implications of competing consensus rules, or isn't just plain shilling, agrees that competing rules in a rules driven system is a good idea. Yet again, if your idea for a cryptocurrency is so good, try doing it without hijacking the bitcoin mining network to do so.

VeritasSapere

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Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: TooDumbForBitcoin on November 26, 2015, 10:45:27 AM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:44:24 AM

Great leaders do not desire power. He gave up his leadership position in Core out of principle only to have Core turn against him to disallow the changes he wanted to implement. That he does not want to lead XT is good sign, he must be one of the greatest and rarest type of leaders like Cincinatius, who was a roman dictator who also freely laid down his power, this should be considered admirable.

Why are you bringing Satoshi into this?

It is true that Gavin gave up his position just like Satoshi did, which begs the question. If Satoshi left because he did not believe there should be centralized control of development then why should we accept centralized control by Core now under different leadership?

VeritasSapere

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Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: valiz on November 26, 2015, 03:53:33 AM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 25, 2015, 11:56:40 AM

Just like was said before, for this disagreement only the blocksize can be changed, which is only a few lines of code, in the case of BIP101 this has already been coded by Gavin. Which gives people the freedom of choice by simply applying the patch on top of either Core or XT. Changing more then the blocksize also further unnecessarily complicates things when it comes to this disagreement at least. You also forgot to attack BTCD since they are also now supporting an increased blocksize as well.

https://github.com/btcsuite/btcd

You lost badly. Just admit it.

So when you say that I have lost, I personally do not see it as being so adversarial though. The main thing however that I have been advocating for is the freedom of choice. So if I have lost does that mean the freedom of choice has lost? Does that not mean then that we have all lost?

TooDumbForBitcoin

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Quote from: VeritasSapere on November 26, 2015, 10:44:24 AM

Great leaders do not desire power. He gave up his leadership position in Core out of principle only to have Core turn against him to disallow the changes he wanted to implement. That he does not want to lead XT is good sign, he must be one of the greatest and rarest type of leaders like Cincinatius, who was a roman dictator who also freely laid down his power, this should be considered admirable.

Why are you bringing Satoshi into this?

VeritasSapere

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Quote from: knight22 on November 25, 2015, 08:47:06 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on November 25, 2015, 05:57:32 PM

Quote from: valiz on November 25, 2015, 08:55:41 AM

Alternative implementations Cheesy

Bitcoin XT - last commit 23rd Oct - https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/commits/master
Bitcoin UL - last commit 11th Sept - https://github.com/BitcoinUnlimited/BitcoinUnlimited/commits/master - only changed name from XT to UL

This is clearly a bad joke.

I don't even understand what the XT shills are defending now. Their software is dead. Their leader is gone working for the big banks. The rented hashpower is almost finished.

At least work on the damn thing and resume shouting afterwards Angry

Don't worry, Gavin might take over XT...but he doesn't want to! Grin

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/gavin-andresen-i-might-take-over-lead-of-bitcoin-xt-1448486445

In comparison to Core devs that want too much Roll Eyes

That says a lot.

Great leaders do not desire power. He gave up his leadership position in Core out of principle only to have Core turn against him to disallow the changes he wanted to implement. That he does not want to lead XT is good sign, he must be one of the greatest and rarest type of leaders like Cincinatius, who was a roman dictator who also freely laid down his power, this should be considered admirable.

hdbuck

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Quote from: Mickeyb on November 26, 2015, 07:20:39 AM

Quote from: Amph on November 26, 2015, 06:44:07 AM

what is the problem of simply forking core to 2mb then 4 mb then 8mb when needed each time we saturate, let's say +90%

i don't a problem of multiple fork spread in a long time frame, you need one click to run a new upgrade of core, not a big deal, i missing something about the real issue of many hard fork?

I think that the problem everyone sees with this is that we would have this unnecessary and long debate every time a new increase had to be decided, just like we are having last 6 months. And quite honestly, they are probably right!

there is no debate. Roll Eyes

only code matter.

Mickeyb

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Move On !!!!!!

Quote from: Amph on November 26, 2015, 06:44:07 AM

what is the problem of simply forking core to 2mb then 4 mb then 8mb when needed each time we saturate, let's say +90%

i don't a problem of multiple fork spread in a long time frame, you need one click to run a new upgrade of core, not a big deal, i missing something about the real issue of many hard fork?

I think that the problem everyone sees with this is that we would have this unnecessary and long debate every time a new increase had to be decided, just like we are having last 6 months. And quite honestly, they are probably right!

Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 62. (Read 379007 times)