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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 60. (Read 378992 times)

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
A good laugh  Cheesy

https://archive.is/lQCHp

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On Black Friday, with 9,000 transactions backlogged, Peter Todd (supported by Greg Maxwell) is merging a dangerous change to Core (RBF - Replace-by-Fee). RBF makes it harder for merchants to use zero-conf, and makes it easier for spammers and double-spenders to damage the network.
Nobody intelligent is going to take these clowns serious if they keep posting nonsense like that. Fork off already guys, nobody needs nor wants you here.

Nobody cares about your 'blockstream core only implementation' imperatif. The totalitarians will be forced to raise the limit soon, or being forked off. No chance for BIP103 and similar jokes.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
The modern large miners are mostly not pools in the historic sense. They own most of their own or at least physically control most of hashpower (directly or through other companies with common ownership). Even to the extent that they are still 'pools', we've seen from experience that the participants have no influence-- e.g. Ghash.io used ~30% hashpower to perform a million dollar scale finney attack, and for months after their hashrate grew, ultimately reaching to 50%. Rather than moving their miners away, people criticized the victim for accepting unconfirmed transactions and moved their hashpower _to_ ghash.


Back to the "LULZ", the desperate attacks on Opt-in RBF (seems that some think they can use this easily misunderstood bit of technology as a proxy in their epic war On Bitcoin Core) have become so shark-jumping-crazy that they're chuckle worthy now: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3ukc52/rbf_is_agaisnt_satoshis_vision_peter_todd_and/cxg8wj5?context=3
More then seventy percent of the hashpower is presently in public pools. Saying that the participants of these pools have no influence is also simply not true, ultimately they have all of the influence since it is the miners that control the hashpower not the pools. It is very simple and easy to switch pools after all, if what you where saying where true I would consider Bitcoin broken, I think you are wrong in this regard however. I am a miner myself and I was mining with Ghash, not when it was approaching fifty percent, though when I did learn about what happened I did move my hashpower over to a more responsible pool as I am sure many other miners like myself did as well. Therefore we can consider Ghash an example of proof of work actually working and the incentives being aligned well, unlike what you are claiming. Since after all Ghash presently controls less then one percent of the hashpower which I think is in part due to the blow that was dealt to their reputation.

In regards to RBF, I agree with what Mike and Gavin and many others have said who have spoken out against it. What ever happened to not implementing contentious changes? I suppose Core decides what issues are contentious then regardless of what others think? This is part of the problem with "developer consensus" ultimately it is a question of who decides. I think that proof of work consensus is superior to your "developer consensus". Proof of work consensus will reflect the will of the economic majority, not just the will of a small group of technical experts within Core.

https://medium.com/@octskyward/replace-by-fee-43edd9a1dd6d#.3tglyp80d
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ul1kb/peter_todds_rbf_replacebyfee_goes_against_one_of/
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Is there anyone out there that would actually want to pretend that there is such a thing as a Bitcoin retail economy, as it currently stand, and that it is anything more than a few thousand redditards sending the same half a million bitcoins back and forth amongst their little "mass adoption" cargo cult while surrending to industry idols, VC priests & the golden lustre of their banking sponsors?

Anyone  Huh
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Back to the "LULZ", the desperate attacks on Opt-in RBF (seems that some think they can use this easily misunderstood bit of technology as a proxy in their epic war On Bitcoin Core) have become so shark-jumping-crazy that they're chuckle worthy now: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3ukc52/rbf_is_agaisnt_satoshis_vision_peter_todd_and/cxg8wj5?context=3

/r/bitcoin right now



staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
The modern large miners are mostly not pools in the historic sense. They own most of their own or at least physically control most of hashpower (directly or through other companies with common ownership). Even to the extent that they are still 'pools', we've seen from experience that the participants have no influence-- e.g. Ghash.io used ~30% hashpower to perform a million dollar scale finney attack, and for months after their hashrate grew, ultimately reaching to 50%. Rather than moving their miners away, people criticized the victim for accepting unconfirmed transactions and moved their hashpower _to_ ghash.


Back to the "LULZ", the desperate attacks on Opt-in RBF (seems that some think they can use this easily misunderstood bit of technology as a proxy in their epic war On Bitcoin Core) have become so shark-jumping-crazy that they're chuckle worthy now: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3ukc52/rbf_is_agaisnt_satoshis_vision_peter_todd_and/cxg8wj5?context=3
full member
Activity: 164
Merit: 100
[...] pools operate in a similar fashion to a representative democracy for the miners, so there are thousands of miners represented by ten to twenty pools. In effect the pools act as a proxy for the miners and the miners are a proxy for the economic majority, since the miners are incentivized not to go against the economic majority. This makes consensus an emergent phenomena which is best represented through proof of work[...]

This.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
Kids in the car always want to go faster, but only the driver and engineers know the limits of what is safe. The kids will cry that they didn't get to go faster, but it's for their own good.

When the oil companies and tire manufacturers stop doing business with the driver and engineers, the car stops.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Talking about Satoshi, I do not appreciate you implying that I am a coward because I am "hiding" behind a pseudonym.

Satoshi wasn't busy throwing baseless accusations around and spouting empty political statements.

"Cypherpunks write code"
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I do not understand this statement and I find it offensive. I looked it up on google and the results where primarily comprised of examples of logical fallacy.

 Cheesy

So you didn't get the hint...
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
^seriously you are one helluva piece of lying irrelevant shite.

you need to go see a shrink if not directly get you locked up or something.

"political philosopher".. wtf?! Huh

either you have a serious mental problem or are paid to troll to spew your nonsense.

still, no one is listening.

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Kids in the car always want to go faster, but only the driver and engineers know the limits of what is safe. The kids will cry that they didn't get to go faster, but it's for their own good.
This is a good example of paternalism. I would recommend reading John Stuarts Mills book, On Liberty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

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Paternalism (or parentalism) is behavior, by a person, organization or state, which limits some person or group's liberty or autonomy for what is presumed to be that person's or group's own good. Paternalism can also imply that the behavior is against or regardless of the will of a person, or also that the behavior expresses an attitude of superiority.
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The word paternalism is from the Greek pater (πάτηρ, πατέρας) for father.
Quote
Paternalism towards adults is sometimes thought to treat them as if they were children.
legendary
Activity: 1320
Merit: 1007
Kids in the car always want to go faster, but only the driver and engineers know the limits of what is safe. The kids will cry that they didn't get to go faster, but it's for their own good.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
...

I am here representing an enlightenment philosophy of freedom and self determination.



ohh man, fork you already. Angry


@gmax: glad to see you here, do not let yourselves down with these irrelevant wackos.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
If hypothetically more then seventy five percent of the miners supported BIP101 after January. Would Core recognize the will of the economic majority and implement BIP101?
You appear to be conflating unlike things here,  the BIP101 threshold is "75%" hashpower, which right now means perhaps two or three people at the moment. Two or three people are not an "economic majority" by any definition.
I do not think that seventy five percent of the hash power is controlled by three people. I think that pools operate in a similar fashion to a representative democracy for the miners, so there are thousands of miners represented by ten to twenty pools. In effect the pools act as a proxy for the miners and the miners are a proxy for the economic majority, since the miners are incentivized not to go against the economic majority. This makes consensus an emergent phenomena which is best represented through proof of work.

This is what I believe, obviously you disagree which is fine. However when there is a fundamental disagreement in Bitcoin that is represented by a significant number of its participants, then in this case there does need to be a process to resolve such a disagreement. This is by necessity a political process which can be defined and understood by pre-existing political theory.

What do you propose should be the process for resolving such a fundamental disagreement? Since I always thought and still do think that proof of work is the ideal mechanism for this process. It does seem like you have answered my question and considering my own ideology it does not seem unfair for me to consider your mentality to be totalitarian in the context of Bitcoin. Also why have you not spoken out against the censorship? If you are opposed to the censorship that is currently occurring in the Bitcoin community now then please take the opportunity and speak up against it and allow your voice to be heard.

Allowing the blocks to fill up is in effect fundamentally changing the economic policy of Bitcoin, since the intention had always been to allow the blocks to become as big as they needed to be, so that this restriction would not block the stream of transactions so to speak.

Since these are also questions of political philosophy and economics among other disciplines, it is not necessarily the case that the technical experts are in the best position to answer some of these questions. Which is in part why consensus being an emergent phenomena represented through proof of work in order to represent the economic majority, seems to me to be a superior governance mechanism compared to what Core is presently proposing.
Quote
If you would implement BIP101 under such conditions you will have my full support. However if you intend to ignore the economic majority and still attempt to push your own agenda while circumventing and undermining the proof of work consensus then I will accuse Core of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it Greg Maxwell, can you answer this question?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
I do not understand this statement and I find it offensive. I looked it up on google and the results where primarily comprised of examples of logical fallacy.

After careful consideration I believe that BIP 101 is a seriously poor proposal, and I doubt the system would survive in an interesting form with that in the long run: but I don't care to try to convince you of that; when it comes down to it I'm uninterested in being involved in any system implementing it, and so I won't be. If the Bitcoin goes along with it-- I'll just work on something else. And it's my own free choice and will to decide what I work on in my time, hopefully you agree?
I agree that you have your own freedom of choice that is fine, and I understand what you are saying, if the majority of miners disagree with you whom I think would represent the economic majority then you would stop working on Bitcoin. I would personally not be interested in Bitcoin if it needed a type of centralized authority in order to make decisions for the entire body politic, fortunately there are many alternative cryptocurrencies, there are also alternative paths for Bitcoin as long as enough people realize this, this is why the cryptocurrency revolution will live on no matter what happens, I am confident of this.

(mimicking your approach:) and if you think you can tell me what I can work on, how I can spend my time, and what thoughts or program I can publish on my own sites I will accuse you of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it, person who feels comfortable throwing rocks while hiding behind a pseudonym, can you answer this question?
I certainly never said such things, and you have no grounds accusing me of tyranny and totalitarianism, I am here representing an enlightenment philosophy of freedom and self determination.

I can answer your question, you are free to do whatever you want and I would never suggest otherwise. However you might not be able to convince the economic majority that we need to change Bitcoin into whatever you find more "interesting". Does this then imply that you think that the original vision of Satoshi is "uninteresting"? Since he did support an increased blocksize. Talking about Satoshi, I do not appreciate you implying that I am a coward because I am "hiding" behind a pseudonym.
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
If hypothetically more then seventy five percent of the miners supported BIP101 after January. Would Core recognize the will of the economic majority and implement BIP101?
You appear to be conflating unlike things here,  the BIP101 threshold is "75%" hashpower, which right now means perhaps two or three people at the moment. Two or three people are not an "economic majority" by any definition.

Quote
If you would implement BIP101 under such conditions you will have my full support. However if you intend to ignore the economic majority and still attempt to push your own agenda while circumventing and undermining the proof of work consensus then I will accuse Core of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it Greg Maxwell, can you answer this question?
Have you stopped beating your wife?

After careful consideration I believe that BIP 101 is a seriously poor proposal, and I doubt the system would survive in an interesting form with that in the long run: but I don't care to try to convince you of that; when it comes down to it I'm uninterested in being involved in any system implementing it, and so I won't be. If the Bitcoin goes along with it-- I'll just work on something else. And it's my own free choice and will to decide what I work on in my time, hopefully you agree? (mimicking your approach:) and if you think you can tell me what I can work on, how I can spend my time, and what thoughts or program I can publish on my own sites I will accuse you of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it, person who feels comfortable throwing rocks while hiding behind a pseudonym, can you answer this question?
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
About being short sighted, are you talking about Core devs procrastination two years ago who didn't care about the blocksize limit which led to all this drama that is happening today? THAT was pretty short sighted IMO. No?

You mean writing things like,

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I think it's clear now that actually getting Bitcoin to the fabled seven transactions per second will be a lot of hard work, [...] If things continue on their present path, scalability is really the least of our concerns [...] When I talk to VCs and Bitcoin-related financial institutions (the others don't care of course), scalability doesn't normally come up as an issue. Why should it? We're not even at 1 transaction per second today.

-- oh wait, that's Mike Hearn.

But seriously, the people you're being critical have done tremendous work on making Bitcoin more scalable.

It's a shame you disrespect us so when your has depended on our (free) labor.  We are struggling to keep the system viable at the current load levels; and have done tremendous work to keep it from falling over or falling into total centralization.

No one I know that is working heavily on the technology believes the system can survive significantly increased scale without actually increasing scalability-- so that's what many people working on; rather than twiddling a knob which slashed the node count the time it was soft-increased previously. Doubly so with fungibility being at least as great a short term concern as scale (and a much greater long term one), as wide spread commercial tracking and coin blacklisting are becoming common; and fungibility improvements come with scaling tradeoffs so to the extent that we have extra headroom we may need it to keep Bitcoin a _money_ (on top of the need for resource headroom to survive attacks).
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1118
Sigh, look at the comments on that /r/bitcoin post.

I appreciate some people support XT, but there's no need to start turning it into a game of "us and them", "Core supporters and XT supporters", "/r/bitcoin and theymos".
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
A good laugh  Cheesy

https://archive.is/lQCHp

Quote
On Black Friday, with 9,000 transactions backlogged, Peter Todd (supported by Greg Maxwell) is merging a dangerous change to Core (RBF - Replace-by-Fee). RBF makes it harder for merchants to use zero-conf, and makes it easier for spammers and double-spenders to damage the network.
Nobody intelligent is going to take these clowns serious if they keep posting nonsense like that. Fork off already guys, nobody needs nor wants you here. That's your freedom of choice, not 'multiple implementations' that you're talking about.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
heheheh

#gavinREKT #1MB4EVA #LOIC #replacebyFIST #forkOFF
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
A good laugh  Cheesy

https://archive.is/lQCHp

Quote
On Black Friday, with 9,000 transactions backlogged, Peter Todd (supported by Greg Maxwell) is merging a dangerous change to Core (RBF - Replace-by-Fee). RBF makes it harder for merchants to use zero-conf, and makes it easier for spammers and double-spenders to damage the network.
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