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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 57. (Read 378992 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
More and more desperation from the XTard drone camp.

Good.

Things are progressing in the right direction.

They are really buttrekt about the RBF thing; they know their ludicrous vision of coffees-on-the-Holy-Ledger is now truly dead and buried.

I haven't seen such wailing, gnashing of teeth, and rending of garments at FrappeForum since the original Great Schism.   Cheesy

The moronero shills shouldn't laugh to early. The chance, that the community will be unable to respond to the blockstream attack (change a 'Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System' into a settlement layer for the banksters) is miniscule.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3ush79/then_they_fight_you/

XT is 100% in the "being laughed at" stage, especially after NotXT literally made a mockery of it.

Your technical illiteracy is evident when you naively propose a 'Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System' based on a blockchain can possibly scale to fiat levels of tx per second.

Hal Finney already revealed the endgame:
Quote

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010

Please note it's not an intended replacement for PayPal or Starbucks gift cards.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Ehhh, the forkers are back on full retard mode.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uvaqn/visualizing_bip101_a_payment_network_for_planet/?sort=controversial

Peter you nasty charlatan.  Angry


ps: controversial sorting does the trick tho, right through the sockpuppets brigading accounts.. proper rekkage. Grin
legendary
Activity: 1066
Merit: 1098
bitcoin =/= bitstamp

They are not the only ones that announced that they will follow BIP101.

What exactly does it mean when Bitstamp says they will 'follow' BIP101?

I mean, the BIP only addresses the generation of blocks, right?  And Bitstamp (as far as I know) does not generate any blocks.

I get the expression of support, but I don't see how they affect the adoption (or not) of BIP101 at all.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
bitcoin =/= bitstamp

They are not the only ones that announced that they will follow BIP101.

Oh yes, sry, + bitpay + goldman sachs + the whole Blockchain (ie. not Bitcoin) Allianzzztm!

How's that titty sucking your banking lords working?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
bitcoin =/= bitstamp

They are not the only ones that announced that they will follow BIP101.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
bitstamp =/= bitcoin
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004

all 431 comments sorted by: controversial (suggested)

Manipulation Comedy in perfection.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100

The tide is turning. Check the votes. The stream will be unblocked; soonish.

Only ones without a clue of bitcoin economic would not see this coming.

If any big players in Bitcoin decides to let Blockstream choke bitcoin for their own benefits, well the big players deserve to go bankrupt.

Fortunately, Bitpay Coinbase and Bitstamp arent fools.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004

The tide is turning. Check the votes. The stream will be unblocked; soonish.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100

LOL where is the clown brg444 when we need him?

"So what? its just a banker" argument is getting old. Come up with something for a change, dumbass.
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254
It reduces the functionality of zero confirmation transactions.
No it doesn't.
The behavior seen by the users of the system changes.  It is up to the users to decide whether this change represents an increase or a decrease in "functionality".
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254

Nothing in the protocol changed. There is absolutely 0 change to Bitcoin protocol. They did not implement any changes to the protocol.  This is not a change! Since they did 0 change to the protocol, they did 0 contentious change to protocol. Since they did not do a contentious change they have stuck to their work so there is no hypocrisy.


A protocol includes both the syntax and the semantics of messages.  The semantics includes the dynamic behavior of the nodes and the meaning of the messages.  In particular, prior to this change certain messages would be rejected by nodes and not forwarded. Subsequent to this change these messages will be forwarded.  Ultimately this effects what users will see. RBF changes how nodes work and the functionality of the bitcoin system. It does this because it changes the protocol.

The confusion here comes from coders looking at the mechanisms inside one node and not seeing a larger picture, which includes the combination of many nodes with applications software and ultimately the human users of Bitcoin.   A further source of confusion comes from the lack of a Bitcoin protocol specification and the lack of a process for evolving this specification.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
I think that some of these more fundamental questions like the blocksize for instance are more concerned with politics and economics then computer science, which is in part why I do not consider the Core developers fundamentally changing the economic policy of Bitcoin a good thing. You might have spend a lifetime studying computer science but there are other people that have spent a lifetime studying economics and politics that do disagree with you. The humanities are more concerned with the study of human culture, as oposed to more objective scientific facts which is what computer science is more involved with.

I do not consider you to be an expert on economics and politics, I most certainly do acknowlige you to be one of the best experts in the fields of computer science within Bitcoin. However sometimes it can be the case that engineers can awnser some questions very differently compared to schollars in different fields of thought. The engineers are not always correct, especially in fields that are not within their own area of expertise

So basically you're saying you choose to ignore scientific evidence and prefer to rely on confirmation bias by cherrypicking pseudo-scientific (politics, economics) arguments that fits your "ideology".

You're a goddamned lunatic.


Scholars didnt came up with bitcoin.

Cypherpunks did.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
To be fair I do not think we have had enouth time to fully discuss and understand this issue, I was only made aware of it being implemented relativly recently.

You just haven't been paying attention

Quote
Recent RBF discussions going back to May 2015.

Github: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176 - Add first-seen-safe replace-by-fee logic to the mempool #6176 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6352 - Scheduled full-RBF deployment #6352 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6871 - nSequence-based Full-RBF opt-in #6871

IRC meeting: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3t1in5/bitcoin_dev_irc_meeting_in_laymans_terms_20151112/

There are many other logs which can be found at http://bitcoinstats.com/ for #bitcoin-dev and https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-core-dev/ for #bitcoin-core-dev

Mailing list discussions in no particular order:

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011783.html - [bitcoin-dev] Opt-in Full Replace-By-Fee (Full-RBF)
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html - [Bitcoin-development] First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008232.html - [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-July/009420.html - [bitcoin-dev] Significant losses by double-spending unconfirmed transactions
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/009253.html - [bitcoin-dev] BIP: Full Replace-by-Fee deployment schedule
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-February/007404.html - [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011685.html - [bitcoin-dev] How wallets can handle real transaction fees

Satoshi originally introduced unconfirmed transaction replacement https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L434 but this was disabled due to a DOS attack (which Peter fixed by requiring a higher fee for each replacement).
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3urm8o/optin_rbf_is_misunderstood_ask_questions_about_it/cxhsbbi
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I think that some of these more fundamental questions like the blocksize for instance are more concerned with politics and economics then computer science, which is in part why I do not consider the Core developers fundamentally changing the economic policy of Bitcoin a good thing. You might have spend a lifetime studying computer science but there are other people that have spent a lifetime studying economics and politics that do disagree with you. The humanities are more concerned with the study of human culture, as oposed to more objective scientific facts which is what computer science is more involved with.

I do not consider you to be an expert on economics and politics, I most certainly do acknowlige you to be one of the best experts in the fields of computer science within Bitcoin. However sometimes it can be the case that engineers can awnser some questions very differently compared to schollars in different fields of thought. The engineers are not always correct, especially in fields that are not within their own area of expertise

So basically you're saying you choose to ignore scientific evidence and prefer to rely on confirmation bias by cherrypicking pseudo-scientific (politics, economics) arguments that fits your "ideology".

You're a goddamned lunatic.
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254

RBF isn't a fork at all, hard or soft. It doesn't change which blocks are valid.

RBF is a code fork, and it's a particularly significant code fork because it changes the functionality of bitcoin and requires significant changes to wallet software and other application software that is built on top of the blockchain.

In one sense, RBF poses a potentially greater risk than a blockchain fork, because the damage it can do is local (between cheating Alice's and duped Bob's) and hence likely to be insidious. Blockchain forks are obvious because of their global impact and  have, historically, mobilized developers and node operators to recover from the resulting  system outages fairly quickly so that ordinary users remain unaffected.


legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Heh, theymos in full debunking mode:


Quote
BIP 101 is terrible and inherently dangerous.

If the majority of miners adopt BIP 101, they will leave Bitcoin. This does not affect Bitcoin except for temporarily-increased confirmation times and reduced total mining power (still out of the reach of any realistic attacker). Full nodes ignore non-Bitcoin miners no matter how much mining power they have.

If, say, 51% of the economy adopts BIP 101 and 75% of miners do as well (this sort of economy-miner split is possible -- for example BIP 65 is supported by ~50% of miners but only ~20% of nodes right now), then you're splitting the Bitcoin economy 49-51. If you think that shattering the Bitcoin ecosystem like this can cause anything but havoc, severely reduced prices, etc., then you're nuts. (You might somewhat-reasonably argue that things will become better in the long-term due to this, though the vast majority of Bitcoin experts disagree with you: there's a good chance that BIP 101 itself is so bad that it will destroy Bitcoin's good properties, and the precedent that a slight majority can completely change any of Bitcoin's "hard rules" should significantly diminish anyone's faith in Bitcoin as well.)

Quote
No, Bitcoin uses the longest valid block chain.

Non-Bitcoin miners are mining an invalid block chain. If the longest block chain was equal to Bitcoin, then there'd be no point to full nodes at all except maybe to run miners. This would also be a horrible and nonsensical system, since you'd be saying that you're OK with giving complete control of Bitcoin to a handful of often-anonymous pool operators far away from you without many of the same incentives as you.

Quote
No. I have also never received any money from Blockstream, and I'm not employed by any Bitcoin company.

Quote
I don't think that Bitcoin can survive long-term with BIP 101, or at least not in a form recognizable as Bitcoin. So I'd have to join Satoshi  in calling Bitcoin a failed project. Maybe it could someday be tried again with more fancy crypto such as SNARKs and more care to prevent this sort of thing.

https://archive.is/IKl91


Still must be quite annoying to always reply to such bunch of irrelevant reddit trolls.

These people are nobodies, never heard of any of them, never contributed to anything, yet they come here and shout at historical bitcoiners - the few that's left - spilling their venom, ad homs on core devs on social media and talk about technical things they do not qualify to discuss.

Surely their corporate/banking masters are desperate to highjack bitcoin by now. Full retard mode is on. Like kids that did not get their candyfork.

Gavin is sneaking back in (?) whilst Hearn is fully integrated with the R3 banking cartel. Anyway, the masks have fallen.

Ah and Blockchain Alliancetm... Full retard mode, I tell you.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
When there are technical experts stating opposing things it is hard for people like me to know what is true, Mike and Gavin certainly do think that it does reduce the functionality of zero confirmation transactions.
Mike and Gavin have not commented on Opt-in RBF as far as I am aware; you are confusing his comments on full RBF. But on what basis do you believe their expertise is greater than a dozen other parties?
You keep saying that it is opt-in however it is only opt-in for the sender not the reciever, the merchant will need to tell the customer to uncheck RBF in whatever wallet they are using in order to accept zero confirmation transactions and in some retail enviroments this would significantly reduce the user experiance to the extent that it is not even practical, it is adding to much complexity to the user experiance requiring people to do this. Transactions can only be "pushed" by the sender therefore opt-in is only optional for the sender not the reciever, and you should not expect retailers to start rejecting transactions based on this as well since this would also make Bitcoin increasingly unreliable in such an environment.

Furthermore when blocks do fill up we now already have child pays for parent for unsticking transactions without the negative consequences that RBF seem to have, so I do question how usefull this really is.

Opt-in RBF is explained in some detail in the FAQ on Reddit, linked previously to you in this thread; you say that you are open to other views, but you seem to have made no effort to familiarize yourself with them.
To be fair I do not think we have had enouth time to fully discuss and understand this issue, I was only made aware of it being implemented relativly recently.

That is peculiar considering that he has spoken out against it on twitter, I was not aware that he had not told the Core team about his concerns, I find that a bit strange, maybe you have a better insight on why this is the case. I am going to ask Gavin myself why he did not speak out against RBF when it was being implemented into Core, since I do find that rather strange.
I just checked his twitter feed and can find no comment on it in the last several months. As far as insight, Gavin is not very active in Bitcoin development and hasn't been for a significant time, before the recent blocksize drama. That he didn't comment on the PR was unsurprising on that basis, but he certainly was aware of it-- since he asked when the merge was being discussed in the weekly meeting if we'd talked to any other wallet vendors about it (though this also indicated he hadn't recently read the PR).
I see, I suppose his position on this issue was already made clear months ago, I have already asked him again anyway.

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/581840219068076032

In regards to you saying that Gavin is not active in development I certainly do have a different perspective, considering what he has done for the blocksize issue over the last few months. Since this is a very important parrameter for me and how I perceive Bitcoin, I consider Gavin to have been very active in development, maybe more in the wider sense of the word, in the development of the Bitcoin protocol. This is not to belittle the work you have done for scaling Bitcoin which has also been very important, though at some point I do believe that we should scale the Bitcoin blockchain directly which can only be done significantly by increasing the blocksize.
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