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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 71. (Read 378992 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Silly arguments by meme carry no weight. Even though this is not a new development it is an aspect of centralization due to small blocksize. I have always argued that centralization pressures exist when the blocks start to fill up.
We've yet to average over 750kb on the weekly.

What "impact" exactly is this FUDster referring to? Don't you think it's possible he's merely using this propaganda to steer customers his way?
It is a possibility, figures though that you default to attacking the man, like you have done towards most people you disagree with on this thread. I think it is safe to assume that transaction volume will continue to grow however.

There's no such thing as "reliance on third party".
You saying that there is no such thing as "reliance on third parties"? I find this somewhat untenable. I suppose with such a position we would never face the risk of increased reliance on third parties, this I obviously disagree with.

Everyone is free to transact on Bitcoin's blockchain if they choose to, as long as they pay the necessary fee.
Lets say if hypothetically the blockchain can support 1000 transactions in one instance, but say for example there are 2000 transactions. Then half of those transactions will never be confirmed and people will most likely end up waiting days for confirmation, if it gets confirmed at all that is, regardless of the fee you pay. Since even if these 2000 transactions all payed the same fee half of those transactions would still not be processed. There is presently also no way to tell how much of a fee would even be required at any one time in order to be at the front of the queue. This is what will render transactions unreliable if we do not increased the blocksize when faced with increased adoption. Under this scenario payment processors and banks will be the only groups that will realistically be able to use the blockchain directly since most users will not be able to outbid such entities for block space. Since only a limited number of payment processors and banks will be able to efficiently operate under a one megabyte limit, this would allow for the possibility of censorship to form around these points of centralization.

I think that this scenario is extremely unlikely to occur since without mass adoption from the people I do not see any reason why large financial institutions would even be interested in doing this on the Bitcoin blockchain in the first place. Essentially I think that Bitcoin will be out competed if we do not increase the blocksize, I even think that this is unlikely since I do think that the incentives to increase the blocksize will allign soon and the economic majority will gets its way with or without Core.

I'm curious what advantages of transacting over Bitcoin's blockchain do you prefer over LN?
Transparency and increased reliability for a start, also ease of use and more resistance to censorship.

I'm guessing you don't care for micro-transactions, increased privacy & instant settlement?
I am actually against increased anonymity in Bitcoin. There are definite advantages to having a more transparent blockchain. We already have micro transactions and zero confirmation in Bitcoin as long as we do not allow the blocks to become to full. Bitcoin was never designed to operate near and potentially over the blocksize limit.

I do like the lighting network actually and I do think it should be implemented, I just do not think it should be considered as a replacement or alternative to using the Bitcoin blockchain directly, which clearly it is not, even though some people are using it as a reason to justify arbitrarily restricting the use and functions of the Bitcoin blockchain.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Silly arguments by meme carry no weight. Even though this is not a new development it is an aspect of centralization due to small blocksize. I have always argued that centralization pressures exist when the blocks start to fill up.

 Roll Eyes



We've yet to average over 750kb on the weekly.

What "impact" exactly is this FUDster referring to? Don't you think it's possible he's merely using this propaganda to steer customers his way?

There's no such thing as "reliance on third party". Everyone is free to transact on Bitcoin's blockchain if they choose to, as long as they pay the necessary fee.

I'm curious what advantages of transacting over Bitcoin's blockchain do you prefer over LN?

I'm guessing you don't care for micro-transactions, increased privacy & instant settlement?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002

Their Big Lie is that Bitcoin was created to replace commercial banking, not central banking (as if the Genesis Text was about $2 ATM fees instead of TBTF bailouts).

Brilliant observation, thank you.

It is indeed.  I personally care not one iota about replacing ATM's.  The debt-based monetary system which currently animates the entire economic state of my country is what I care about.  More specifically, the inherent life expectancy of such systems and their typical failure modes, and what it may mean to me.  Even more specifically, what evolves out of such an implosion.

It is worth note that almost without exception the efforts that Hearn and Andresen have focused on are to facilitate to enlistment of people who's interest does not go beyond the ATM/VISA/PayPal aspect of the Bitcoin monetary system.  I attribute this to a strategy which recognizes that these participants are a distinct liability to the defensibility of the ecosystem.  The demands that 'the masses' make will open many chinks in the armor.  Actually 'chinks' is an understatement.  The effect would be that of a sufficiently large torpedo detonated under the keel mid-ship.

I do believe that this 'enlist the masses' focus has been strategic, and is for the ultimate purpose of destroying the Bitcoin solution in it's initial form.  At least in Hearn's case.  Gavin may at one point have been legitimately convinced that ballooning the userbase was a viable defense however naive that may be, and also that bending over backward to placate the existing political power structures so that they will be nice to us made sense.  I don't believe that that is a sustainable argument any more if it ever was, and Gavin must certainly know this.



heh, and now coinbase goldman sachs is issuing bitcoin 'debit' cards...

clearly the innovation of teh century!


hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Silly arguments by meme carry no weight. Even though this is not a new development it is an aspect of centralization due to small blocksize. I have always argued that centralization pressures exist when the blocks start to fill up. This is an example of this phenomena. There is an irony to Peter Tod being so opposed to this development considering that he is involved with building more third parties on top of the Bitcoin blockchain which are also intended to further mitigate this effect. Even though LN and sidechains are trustless I do not consider them to be replacements for an increased blocksize, since they do not have some of the same advantages that transacting on the Bitcoin blockchain directly does. This is why I consider increased reliance on third parties because of small block size to be a centralization pressure.

I do find it a bit peculiar that people are claiming this has nothing to do with the blocksize considering that Samson Mow has stated specifically that this is the reason why. After all blocks becoming full will cause transactions to become unreliable, so having these type of third parties build on top of the Bitcoin blockchain will at least make it more reliable for a few elite individuals.

Quote
Samson Mow, BTCC's chief operating officer, said: "BlockPriority is a unique and innovative service available exclusively to BTCC users. It's also a means of mitigating potential impact to our customers from the lack of progress on blocksize increases."
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002


Mike H. RageQuits Bitcoin ... bye Mike, don't let the door hit your ass on the way pout.

Said this was coming a month back, egos gonna ego.





legendary
Activity: 3332
Merit: 1617
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legendary
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Stick a fork in XT - It's done.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
RBF also mitigates BTTC's impact.   Grin

Quote
petertodd

you can (ab)use this service to zeroconf double-spend merchants by first creating a low-fee transaction paying a BTCC wallet address, followed by double-spending that transaction with one paying the merchant. BTCC will mine tx1 even after tx2 is created, yet all other miners will mine tx2. (and may not even see tx1) Similarly, tx1 is unlikely to be propagated widely if at all, so the merchant probably won't even see it and won't know they're being doublespent.

RBF and CPFP both make fee bumping fairly easy, which makes this kind of service a lot less useful - I'm far more concerned about other centralization pressures than this one.

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Quote
The BTTC event will force

What?  Miners have taken payments for prioritizing transactions for eons. MTGox was doing the same thing in _2011_ (it gave hosting to eligius in exchange for prioritizing transactions).  F2Pool apparently has an API that you can pay access too.

Google 'gmaxwell out of band fees' and you can find lots of posts where I'm schooling people about this possibility (and actuality)-- including pushing for fee estimator designs that don't get confused by it.

There is nothing all that interesting about it, in this case: In Bitcoin, a fee is pretty much a fee regardless of its paid in or out of band.

We even have a supported, documented, and maintained facility in Bitcoin Core for doing this, and have for years, written by the same people you seem to expect to be surprised by it:

prioritisetransaction
Accepts the transaction into mined blocks at a higher (or lower) priority

Arguments:
1. "txid"       (string, required) The transaction id.
2. priority delta (numeric, required) The priority to add or subtract.
                  The transaction selection algorithm considers the tx as it would have a higher priority.
                  (priority of a transaction is calculated: coinage * value_in_satoshis / txsize)
3. fee delta      (numeric, required) The fee value (in satoshis) to add (or subtract, if negative).
                  The fee is not actually paid, only the algorithm for selecting transactions into a block
                  considers the transaction as it would have paid a higher (or lower) fee.

Result
true              (boolean) Returns true

Examples:
> bitcoin-cli prioritisetransaction "txid" 0.0 10000
> curl --user myusername --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "prioritisetransaction", "params": ["txid", 0.0, 10000] }' -H 'content-type: text/plain;' http://127.0.0.1:8332/


That it's surprising to /you/ only shows you weren't paying attention.  Smiley  And maybe a little bit of desperation to infer something else to support an otherwise unsupportable position?   "Bitcoin Miner uses standard Bitcoin Core feature, Better drink my XT!"

In any case-- I suggest you stop thinking in terms of finding ways to "force" people to do things; it's unbecoming.


people actually willing to pay more fees to transact with bitcoin.

shocker. Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
As for El Todd's new stragety, it is to exploit the crap out of BTCC if they start to be shitlords.

Quote
@petertoddbtc

Idea: (ab)use BTCC's BlockPriority to doublespend w/ a zero-fee doublespend paying a BTCC wallet addr, followed by high-fee to merchant.


https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/667754533800382465

Heh, so rekt.  You should have learned from the XT debacle and CLTV/RBF triumphs to always bet on El Todd.   Wink

They are finished. BIP101 triggered the turning tide. The BTTC event will force core to raise the limit even more soonish than intended until yesterday.

BTCC is a non-event, but cling to your latest FUD narrative if it helps soothe the sting of your crushing defeat by Team Core.

You Gavinistas have a thing for celebrating victory before the battle has started.  How did that work out for XT and BIP101?

Remember xtnodes.com?  And how you talked like every new XT node and block was a dagger in Blockstream's heart?  But then suddenly, NotXT, and then you failed!   Grin

The only thing BIP101 triggered (besides a temporary fiat loss of 20%) was the banhammering and subsequent rage-quitting of Mikey and Frap.doc, who were transformed into lolcows of exceptional quality and productivity.

CLTV/RBF were going to be implemented anyway; even Gavin said so.  It's just our luck that they happened to help kill XT in the process.  Smiley

#R3KT
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
Quote
The BTTC event will force

What?  Miners have taken payments for prioritizing transactions for eons. MTGox was doing the same thing in _2011_ (it gave hosting to eligius in exchange for prioritizing transactions).  F2Pool apparently has an API that you can pay access too.

Google 'gmaxwell out of band fees' and you can find lots of posts where I'm schooling people about this possibility (and actuality)-- including pushing for fee estimator designs that don't get confused by it.

There is nothing all that interesting about it, in this case: In Bitcoin, a fee is pretty much a fee regardless of its paid in or out of band.

We even have a supported, documented, and maintained facility in Bitcoin Core for doing this, and have for years, written by the same people you seem to expect to be surprised by it:

prioritisetransaction
Accepts the transaction into mined blocks at a higher (or lower) priority

Arguments:
1. "txid"       (string, required) The transaction id.
2. priority delta (numeric, required) The priority to add or subtract.
                  The transaction selection algorithm considers the tx as it would have a higher priority.
                  (priority of a transaction is calculated: coinage * value_in_satoshis / txsize)
3. fee delta      (numeric, required) The fee value (in satoshis) to add (or subtract, if negative).
                  The fee is not actually paid, only the algorithm for selecting transactions into a block
                  considers the transaction as it would have paid a higher (or lower) fee.

Result
true              (boolean) Returns true

Examples:
> bitcoin-cli prioritisetransaction "txid" 0.0 10000
> curl --user myusername --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "prioritisetransaction", "params": ["txid", 0.0, 10000] }' -H 'content-type: text/plain;' http://127.0.0.1:8332/


That it's surprising to /you/ only shows you weren't paying attention.  Smiley  And maybe a little bit of desperation to infer something else to support an otherwise unsupportable position?   "Bitcoin Miner uses standard Bitcoin Core feature, Better drink my XT!"

In any case-- I suggest you stop thinking in terms of finding ways to "force" people to do things; it's unbecoming.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
It means now pool can start colluding with exchanges to priorities their transactions regardless of the fees. It once again encourage centralization of pools and discourage a fee market.

Indeed. We should be disappointed with this, though I don't see how this should affect the block size debate. The issue here is the fact that we're even satisfied with a pool centralising the priority of transactions and not allowing the Bitcoin protocol and fees to dictate it.

No one with a right mind think it's a good idea but it has everything to do with the block size and it's the first symptom of small blocks being full:

Quote
Samson Mow, BTCC's chief operating officer, said: "BlockPriority is a unique and innovative service available exclusively to BTCC users. It's also a means of mitigating potential impact to our customers from the lack of progress on blocksize increases."

The miniblockists are finally quiet:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3tkhu4/btcc_launches_priority_blockchain_transactions/

But the Todd has a new strategy: HOPE (despite that "Bitcoin is poorly designed")

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-114#post-4078
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-115#post-4086

Sorry, but Frap.doc's rump forum doesn't display on my browser correctly.  No, I can't try a different one.   Grin

As for El Todd's new stragety, it is to exploit the crap out of BTCC if they start to be shitlords.

Quote
@petertoddbtc

Idea: (ab)use BTCC's BlockPriority to doublespend w/ a zero-fee doublespend paying a BTCC wallet addr, followed by high-fee to merchant.


https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/667754533800382465

Heh, so rekt.  You should have learned from the XT debacle and CLTV/RBF triumphs to always bet on El Todd.   Wink

They are finished. BIP101 triggered the turning tide. The BTTC event will force core to raise the limit even more soonish than intended until yesterday.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
It means now pool can start colluding with exchanges to priorities their transactions regardless of the fees. It once again encourage centralization of pools and discourage a fee market.

Indeed. We should be disappointed with this, though I don't see how this should affect the block size debate. The issue here is the fact that we're even satisfied with a pool centralising the priority of transactions and not allowing the Bitcoin protocol and fees to dictate it.

No one with a right mind think it's a good idea but it has everything to do with the block size and it's the first symptom of small blocks being full:

Quote
Samson Mow, BTCC's chief operating officer, said: "BlockPriority is a unique and innovative service available exclusively to BTCC users. It's also a means of mitigating potential impact to our customers from the lack of progress on blocksize increases."

The miniblockists are finally quiet:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3tkhu4/btcc_launches_priority_blockchain_transactions/

But the Todd has a new strategy: HOPE (despite that "Bitcoin is poorly designed")

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-114#post-4078
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-115#post-4086

Sorry, but Frap.doc's rump forum doesn't display on my browser correctly.  No, I can't try a different one.   Grin

As for El Todd's new stragety, it is to exploit the crap out of BTCC if they start to be shitlords.

Quote
@petertoddbtc

Idea: (ab)use BTCC's BlockPriority to doublespend w/ a zero-fee doublespend paying a BTCC wallet addr, followed by high-fee to merchant.


https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/667754533800382465

Heh, so rekt.  You should have learned from the XT debacle and CLTV/RBF triumphs to always bet on El Todd.   Wink
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Quote
The miniblockists are finally quiet:

Nothing left to say since Hearn has RageQuit

Yes, that's all you still can say, given the new development on 'poor designed' miniblock centralization.

CONFIRMED:

The Gavinista dead-ender zero-percenter attempts to spin every new development into FUD and Bitcoin Obituaries are now so old as to be clichéd.

XT   Cheesy

Todd.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13029224
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Mah censhoreship-free, anonymous, digital gold, store of value:



Hear me roar!
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Quote
The miniblockists are finally quiet:

Nothing left to say since Hearn has RageQuit

Yes, that's all you still can say, given the new development on 'poor designed' miniblock centralization.

CONFIRMED:

The Gavinista dead-ender zero-percenter attempts to spin every new development into FUD and Bitcoin Obituaries are now so old as to be clichéd.

XT   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Quote
The miniblockists are finally quiet:

Nothing left to say since Hearn has RageQuit

Yes, that's all you still can say, given the new development on 'poorly designed' miniblock centralization.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Quote
The miniblockists are finally quiet:

Nothing left to say since Hearn has RageQuit ... the general has left soldier, battle is over, go home to your wife and kids and farm some bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
It means now pool can start colluding with exchanges to priorities their transactions regardless of the fees. It once again encourage centralization of pools and discourage a fee market.

Indeed. We should be disappointed with this, though I don't see how this should affect the block size debate. The issue here is the fact that we're even satisfied with a pool centralising the priority of transactions and not allowing the Bitcoin protocol and fees to dictate it.

No one with a right mind think it's a good idea but it has everything to do with the block size and it's the first symptom of small blocks being full:

Quote
Samson Mow, BTCC's chief operating officer, said: "BlockPriority is a unique and innovative service available exclusively to BTCC users. It's also a means of mitigating potential impact to our customers from the lack of progress on blocksize increases."

The miniblockists are finally quiet:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3tkhu4/btcc_launches_priority_blockchain_transactions/

But the Todd has a new strategy: HOPE (despite that "Bitcoin is poorly designed")

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-114#post-4078
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-115#post-4086
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