Topic: Bitcoinica liquidator wants to hear from users - page 15. (Read 64418 times)

Send it to Mt. Gox?  Doesn't sound like you will get anywhere with the liquidators.  I would be interested to hear any response from Gox on this matter.

I emailed them 4 days ago for an update but no response yet.

Forgot about all that..

I remember a discussion on here about how Zhou was able to open a MtGox account given that he was under 18 and I'm pretty sure his response was that it was because it was a business account.  When Bitcoinica first started, it was operated under the umbrella of Xway Labs, which was set up in Delaware.  Was a new MtGox account created for Bitcoinica when Bitcoinica LP was formed or appropriate paperwork provided to MtGox to establish that Bitcoinica was no longer "located" in the US?

It is my understanding (this still needs to be verified with MtGox) that only accounts held by US or Canadian persons (including corporations and other legal entities) will be transfered to ConLab .. er I mean CoinLab.

To the best of my knowledge this would not include any of the accounts related to Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).

The liquidator should be informed about the new deal between CoinLab and MtGox. 

Both Tihan and Roger Ver are investors in CoinLab and if Bitcoinica's MtGox account is transferred to CoinLab, the funds will be in the US and therefore it will be very easy for the Cartmell plaintiffs to pursue those funds should they prevail in the California lawsuit.

Zhou's role in the downfall of Bitcoinica will probably never be fully examined.  He's been protected throughout this whole clusterfuck to a ridiculous extent when his actions after the Intersango guys joined Bitcoinica deserve intense scrutiny.  Given strong indications for him being involved in the MtGox intrusion, it's reasonable to examine whether he was connected in any way to the Rackspace intrusion too.  It's rather galling that he's sitting on $70,000 worth of NameTerrific shares while average Bitcoinica users may still end up receiving no refund and he's not even named as one of the defendants in the Cartmell lawsuit despite the evidence linking him to the MtGox intrusion. 

No, although repentance above suggested going on IRC.. which I never do - not that he/they would likely comment anyway.  Much easier to sit on all our coins.

Yeah, pretty sure he's responsible. He did it the moment he found out that the source code was leaked (pissed him off, plus gave him plausible deniability).

I don't think he's worried though. Now, if someone goes after Trendon Shavers (and then Sam Theofanopoulos aka HaskKing), then he would start worrying.

BTW, has anyone contacted MtGox about their stance on the bitcoinica funds?

You know that ZhouTong is reading this and hoping daily that no one gets smart and comes after him for the other 20k btc.  It's worth $600k now.

Can the original owners decide that they have a surplus and stop the liquidation?  Or is it too late for that?

I think it's very important question for the authorities (for world government). They will not allow that would be the first lawsuit to bitcoin was a "failure." They will spend $ 1M, $ 2M, $ 10M, but the price bitcoin grow and the court will successfully resolved in favor of the creditors (claimants) on the price level is above 50.
It's not as easy as you think. IMHO  What would have been good news. And apparently there was another article in forbes I do not worry about it. But I want that to rush things (maybe I'm wrong).
[stop sarcasm]

Thank you for the extremely clear explanation.  You are a scholar and a gentleman.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Let me back-of-the-envelope out loud then using your figures.  Current holdings are:


Double GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I don't suppose there is any way to persuade the liquidators to use the 60,000 USD that they do control to buy BTC to prevent any further losses from exchange rate changes?

The liquidator estimated that the combined value of BTC and USD in the Bitcoinica MtGox account/s was $500,000 based on the information with which he'd been provided and he was waiting for MtGox to confirm that - but that estimate was based on BTC being worth USD 11.

There was $85,181 in Bitcoinica's bank accounts and there should be no impediment to the liquidator obtaining control over those funds.

According to the first report, the value of Bitcoin claims was roughly five times that of USD claims.  At today's rates, the 65,057 BTC claimed are now worth almost $2 million, compared to the $765,000 they were worth in November.

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

Obviously, it matters a lot whether the majority of remaining Bitcoinica funds held on MtGox are held as BTC or USD - and that information is currently unavailable.

As pointed out by MPOE-PR, MtGox could actually refuse to acknowledge the authority of the NZ liquidator and choose instead to acknowledge the authority of the California court if the Cartmell plaintiffs prevail and seek domestication in Japan of the California court's order (which you can almost guarantee will happen if MtGox still holds Bitcoinica's funds when the California action is decided).

Seems like it has been around 8 months since this all originally went down.  Don't be so demanding.. 

:/

I'm not happy that my money is not under my control; but provided it is now safe, and provided there is reasonable expectation that the legal stuff will eventually be sorted out and I'll get my coins back, then I can live with a delay.

What I would like to hear from liquidators/mt.gox is that that expectation is reasonable.  Have Mt.Gox got our money?  How much of our money have they got and how much has been lost?  It's still not clear to me what percentage of my coins are being held by a trustworthy participant.  (Yeah, yeah, I know -- "0" is the answer).

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  Why should he do anything from his POV?  He is just sitting in everyone else's money and can do what he pleases with it in the meantime.  It isn't sounding like from anything I have heard that he has to do anything else.  Wasn't Mr. Seale supposed to forward this process along somehow?  More or less sounds like everyone is happy to do nothing.

This sort of stuff happens all the time, it's called venue shopping. Absent a domesticated court order MtGox can legally do whatever they please. Why should they consider the proceedings of some NZ authority above and beyond the proceedings of some CA authority? (Or vice-versa, for that matter). They don't really care either way, let all those people sort out their problems, get the court order. Whoever gets it first gets the jackpot.

You can't expect a company to expend the resources to follow international litigation. They're barely profitable on top of the expenses required by not getting hacked more than once a year, not having their email db dumped more than once a year and so forth.

Here's my take. Either Mark does everything in his power to accelerate this process or remove himself from the The Bitcoin Foundation board. As I read it now, Mt Gox can stonewall this process ad infinitum, meanwhile utilizing the funds for day-to-day operations, something I've previously claimed is happening. Do you honestly believe a bank wouldn't touch a million dollars, e.g., sitting in some liquidation account while litigation was in process? Using the same example, if that same million was no longer readily available, said bank would go into stall mode if it looked like there's a chance that it's about to be transferred out.

The funds were place with Mt Gox in good faith and being the most safest place to place them. Sadly, the latter is being proven true, for it's now so safe, nobody can touch it.

Maybe I'm off-base here, yet something to think about.

~Bruno K~

You can apply to the NZ High Court to have the liquidator removed and another appointed.  Liquidators typically issue a report every 6 months.  It's not like they're working 8 hours a day on one liquidation, and there's very little they or anyone else can do without access to Bitcoinica's records and funds.

A great deal of legal stuff does still need to be done in hard copy - that is not unusual.  A court would require the same.

You're not obligated to make a claim in the liquidation.  You can certainly take separate legal action if you want, but expect it to cost tens of thousands of dollars with no certainty whatsoever that whoever you decide to sue will have any assets.

MtGox is unlikely to sit on Bitcoinica's funds for a few years.  They'll end up being released either to the liquidator or to the plaintiffs in the Cartmell lawsuit if they prevail in court.

I think MtGox doesn't doubt the authority of the liquidator but for good reason they doubt of the capability of the liquidator.

These guys have a hard time giving us an update per month,  Force us to produce proof of ownership for virtual assets using the pen, paper and fax method.  Their email system can't receive ANY url in email, and reject every such email with a clueless reject error  message.

To sum up,,, in three month, they seems to have done nothing.  Oh, they asked us in public if we prefer to be paid in BTC or USD ... the answer was obviously a personal choice.

I DO NOT WANT THIS LIQUIDATOR TO DO ANYTHING WITH MY BTC.

Sorry but I'd much prefer MtGox to sit on my BTC for a few year,,, At which time 250 BTC might be enough to afford a lawsuit with some teethes, bitcoin competent lawyers and judges.  Currently not even a handful of lawyer and I doubt any Judges can produce any meaningful ruling out of this mess.

I was Long Long LONG ! on BTC,...  not going to forget about this lost without a good fight. (Be careful)