Topic: Bitcoin's Dystopian Future - page 11. (Read 28242 times)

As do I sire, as do I

But I don't either believe one should be obliged to know the ins and outs of every tax jurisdiction prior to being free to post 'grand political or economic theories'.

I understand that both business and residential rates in the UK are paid by occupiers not landowners.  What I would question is your classifying the uk system as 'land tax'.   I know Scotland and Wales have variations on the system but as far as I understand it neither domestic nor business rates are based on land values but on rateable values for business premises and on 'Council Tax Banding' for residential.  The latter, based on 1991 values fails dismally to reflect the increased polarity between land value in prosperous and impoverished regions.  Business tax at least is more current but still includes the value of the building itself.  Neither tax is payable on vacant building land.  In my eyes it would take some stretch to classify either as 'land tax'.

Although not impossible (which I suppose my wording incorrectly implied) I can not see any organisation putting a land tax system in place without at least having enough of an understanding (and, as you suggest, doing enough research) to know it can only work if it is the land owner that pays.  What's more, because rental values are determined by demand and are independent of the cost of supply then these charges can not be passed on to the tenant so not even indirectly does the tenant pay.*

As it happens I wrote a blog about Land Tax this morning.

No hard feelings.  I wrote as I did for clarification rather than as criticism/correction.

* The tenant would likely eventually end up paying more but only because another consequence of Land Value Tax is that other forms of taxation are reduced/abolished meaning more money is available meaning the competition for the same rental units is increased resulting in landlords being able to raise rent.

If Bitcoin were to replace fiat currency, government would move from taxing incomes to taxing resources.  Think water rates, road tolls, etc.  The state system would tick along just fine.

except where it doesn't, like in the uk. i wish more people here would learn more about the actual world before coming up with grand political or economic theories (or at least before trying to correct me).

This ^

Except that land taxation always taxes owners not renters.

There is a carrot to land taxes I'm on a mission to point out to people (see my blog link) but I also think Bitcoin and anything that makes it easier for more income, purchases and wealth more difficult for governments to keep up with also acts as a stick towards a means of public revenue that's been staring them in the face for a century and more!

Thank you. That gave me goosebumps.

Made me think of:

"The Story of Your Enslavement" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

+1 Great post!

Made me think of:
YOUR FAVORITE MARTIAN - TAKE OVER THE WORLD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtWDQHNhuBs

Thanks for your post, it is always important to think about worst case scenarios to be able to prevent them.

Governments would have to buy Bitcoin / cryptocoins (with fiat or gold). They could even back fiat money by cryptocoins. Lack of taxes may bring serious problems, though:

People could be linked to an address by their dns in a government controlled public database. Whenever you pay VAT will be deducted automatically. If you send to or receive from unregistered addresses the police will visit you and ask questions.

Note that this would even be easier with centralized money. It could happen though, that a cryptocurrency forces governments into doing it.

I feel like this is the scenario we are moving towards anyway.

And the 80% wont be good. I think feudalism might rise again... And bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency won't stop this in anyway...

It's really depends on separation of those parts of populations...

+1

One much more likely outcome is that US government will pass a bill to have full and unrestricted access to ISP traffic, outlaw peer-to-peer technology and cryptography in all forms, and crack down on anyone they catch using cryptography and / or peer-to-peer technology. The use of cryptography was regulated a decade ago, there is no reason this cannot come back if the government sees fit to it. Ah, and yeah, of course all the other governments will follow suit like nice little lap dogs.

If this is ever going to happen, I don't wanna be a rich-ass jerk.
I would try to use the gained influence to make the world a better place, not one far worse.
After all, we would be the ones with the new wealth, so we would be the ones that could change things.

on a side note: let's hope Satoshi is one of those idealistic good types, he could change the whole earth with the wealth he would gain.

In my dystopian future where automation and robots has replaced most human workforce the society will fork into two chains:

The lucky 20% - Those who owns the resources, and those who are needed to run the corporations and the government. The government has created its own crypto currency that Wall Street banks mines and the block reward is determined by Federal Reserve.

The struggling 80% - Those who are not needed by the system got to survive somehow, the government might give them food stamps and some benefits to prevent riots, but riots occur now and then. They have no other choice than to use bartering, local currencies, handwritten IOUs and bitcoin since they do not have any employment.

A glimpse into the dystopian future after the rise of bitcoin:


I'm sorry, just couldn't resist.

Bitcoin definitely has the potential to rock the boat in a big way as the vaccuum of trust people have in their banks and governments continues to grow, and as Cyprus already cased, Bitcoin is the exit door on a failing economy, that is only months or years from a complete collapse. Bitcoin is so readily and easily deployable compared to the current nightmare hose beast of a system that it could in theory provide a backstop against a failed economic system. Bitcoin will continue to spread and over-write the bad financial sectors, with whatever positive wealth there is shifts to BTC and other coins, and leaving the mountain of debt to rot in the 7th circle of hell with the FEDs printing press.

I have researched a lot on the New World Order, I have to say I think it is one of those things hard to accept if you are a decent human being that such a terrible evil could possibly exist. But look at our lives. The rich and powerful used their gilded tower to buy more wealth and more power to rob us of our common wealth and power. I exist in one of those in a smaller college town, there is nothing I can do here to get past around $10 an hour when everything keeps getting more expensive. I went to school and got a degree like they told us to, at least thankfully I went into IT instead of some other dying profession. This is the life I was given, and it feels like the end.

Bitcoin isn't just a currency to me, which is why I happily give my life to it to ensure it succeeds. A chance to start a real business from the future at the very start, is an amazing opportunity where really no others exist. My choices othewise are fix people's computers for a pittance, or do something else for a pittance, and that is all I have to look forward to until I died, until I found Bitcoin.

Bitcoin doesn't just have users, it also has believers like me, broken down and attacked at every angle into a maw of near-poverty, ready for a chance to take the power back that was stolen from us. I don't see my developing business as a hardware maker, I see it as a heavy arms manufacturer in the coming currency wars.

I am finished fixing the problem with the problem, doing my best work for a tiny scrap of fiat money into a machine that ultimately screws me, I hope the day comes I never have to see a Dollar bill in my real life wallet ever again.  Bitcoin is my living protest against a destructive, terrible system that only breeds misery and corruption worldwide.

Find me anyone that feels that way toward a fiat currency right now, and I'll print out this post and literally eat it.

I don't know about anyone else, but it is boom or bust for me. At least it beats sitting around hoping the world's nightmare governmental system pulls it's head out of its collective ass, when you secretly know it isn't profitable for the powers in charge to allow you to have a living wage and a home.

There is a line in the sand between the world fiscal gestapo and the tech geeks. Remember when BitTorrent was taken down a few ye...oh right, that is still there too. Bitcoin isn't going anywhere.

You forgot about this competitors to bitcoin in your dystopian scenario:

1) Alt-coins
2) Gold and silver
3) USD alt-coin, EUR-altcoin and so on... If they cant beat bitcoin, they simply have to embrace bitcoin and create their own alt-coin. Crypto currencies are even better than cash for the government, every little transaction can be traced. Nothing is hidden from taxation.

Have some faith man! Regardless of the woeful state of monetary affairs, the world you are talking about is made of people interacting with other people. Adversity has a way of flushing out the chumps and bringing the best out in people. Regardless of the worst possible scenario you can imagine (you seem pretty good at these) the numbers on our screens or in our brains is not going to cause us to mistreat each other for no good reason, even cows do not behave like this ... those numbers can all dissolve and in the end it is one human animal interacting with another human animal. If everybody were cruel, unfeeling, starving, cold beasts then the future you portray is possible ... the fact is we are higher beings and for the most part well-fed and comfortable.

Also take issue with several parts;


No, whatever else she may have done but on the whole Grandmas have endlessly voted for a bunch of misguided, uneducated, shallow, lying. cheating leaders offering to fix all her problems for her. This is her biggest error more than all the others. Democracy was a gift not to be squandered on selfish unthinking goals.

then this

... was that supposed great wealth ever there to begin with? Numbers in a database are not wealth, they are representations of wealth (that were inflated beyond all rational calculations). All the real assets and productive capabilities of the globe are not going to disappear because of a geek experiment ... but they may one day come to become valued against such a tool. The run to hard assets of alternative currencies was set in motion long before bitcoin came on the scene, all it will do is merely accelerate the demise of the rotten, failed fiat monetary structures.

Why is that bizarre?  (The quote was mine - although in a different context and on a different thread)