Topic: Bitcoin's Dystopian Future - page 12. (Read 28248 times)

I enjoyed reading this, and while there is some truth to what is written, I think the author is missing the forest through the trees.

Every. Single. One. of his fears are happening RIGHT NOW... ALL THE TIME... EVERYWHERE... at the hands of GOVERNMENTS.

There is going to be a total power shift from the criminal organization known as THE STATE, and all who cling to its coattails, to the producers of value and those who engage in voluntary commerce and interactions between and among individuals.

+1

Amen BitcoinAshley.

I disagree. Hyperinflation will happen with or without bitcoin. It has happened in many countries to date, before bitcoin was even a whisper in Satoshi's brain. The way the central banks are managing currencies, fiat is going to die a very violent death whether or not Bitcoin exists.

It just so happens that bitcoin provides a viable alternative, as well as silver and gold and hey - good old barter. This spring I'll be trading turnips for bales of hay to feed my rabbits. Grandma will be fine, I promise.

I agree that we should put our bitcoin brains to work thinking of ways to use Bitcoin to ease peoples' troubles when fiat does collapse. But I disagree that bitcoin is necessary for a fiat collapse to occur. Ben Bernanke & Co are doing well enough on their own

Government don't just want to stop criminals(non-government) from illegal lucrative activity, the government themselves profit from such activities. Drugs are a great example, as long as they can control it, they can profit from scarcity and the handling of supply. Then you have prisons, war and all that good stuff that the government loves to collect your money for. Government only care about reform when they have no financial stake in said reform, if they have nothing to gain from you then you can rest assured that they only care if they can instead divert you while pick pocketing you elsewhere. 

Like many of the respondents here I have a greater faith in human nature to provide a compassionate response to what may be coming.  However if the European experiment we have just seen unfold tells us anything, you cannot have a single monetary system without a single government.  I see that transition as being a monumental challenge, and will require visionary leaders to take leaps of counter-intuitive faith.

my favorite recent bizarre post that captures much of the ethos of this forum was:

I kinda agree with this mentality, but there is more involved than disagreeing with quality & price.  As technology advances, old ways of doing things become obsolete.  In our case, decentralized money makes government issued money obsolete.  Now we can save money (not pay taxes), without losing the advantage of a stable, nonconterfeitable currency.

Your argument is a little different because you mention government's main service is security over money.  I'm not sure I agree with that though.

 
I must say that reading some articles on bitcointalk is more amusing for me than watching a comical serial.
For outsiders probably even more.
I think at the moment they look on us more like on some mad people:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2140782,00.html

I feel Bitcoins are a new step in human history, or at least, the currency will at least plant the idea for future generations to accomplish. At this point there is no going back. I have to disagree with your negative perspective on Bitcoin's future, electricity for example has made is possible to share your thoughts across the globe, as it has enabled aircraft to drop bombs across the globe. All tech will have both positive and negative consequences and as a species I hope for the day where we can take a step back and say enough is enough, I don't want to participate in this slave driven system, I can think for myself.

Before I was banned from Abovetopsecret I should say that this list does not phase me in the least lol. Microchips are not necessary for control either, believe me school, supermarkets, tv, music, news, chemicals in food etc all do a fine job.  

This OP makes me think that Bitcoin will be a MAJOR push towards something like seasteading, or a private island nation, simply because those who became bitcoin-wealthy will likely want to come together to support each other; strengths in numbers and safety in sticking together kinda thing. In the end, we may just end up with a super-wealthy micronation that likely works as a non-binding corporation/conglomerate of wealthy owners, residing within the safety of their own privately militarized, protected gated community/island/ship, with its tentacles in every business in the rest of the world.

The nice thing about markets and economics is that people will always need "stuff," and as long as people need "stuff" and other people are willing to make "stuff" for money, there will always be work and "stuff" being made, regardless of who holds all the wealth.

this is cute and imaginative, but it is better as fiction than as social science or prediction. if the professional economists can't predict anything two years ahead, why do you think you can?

1. even if bitcoin were untaxable, which it's not, why would the government be unable to find some other source of funds? it could tax land (owners or renters), for example. at the very worst, tax fraud through bitcoin could slightly undermine progressive income taxation, but it's unlikely to do even that because there would still be real-world employers with physical presences that are easy targets of tax enforcement. most salary-based tax is voluntarily reported by individuals, except for that portion declared by institutional employers. your view is a bit ahistorical, too: the income tax isn't even very old.

2. you seem to be assuming that the value of an individual bitcoin will reach $1 million. (that is probably what would be necessary for satoshi to be a 'trillionaire'.) why would anyone without bitcoins throw so much money into bitcoins, however? they might be useful, and they might be enough to attract both speculation and real use, but a century before your fanciful claims would materialise, those with present wealth would find it far easier to set up an alternative cryptocurrency.

2a. bitcoin would not actually be a robust way to store the amount of wealth that would be necessary for your story to materialise. it could still probably be disrupted by $5 million's worth of asic chips. it presently stores, also, nowhere near as much as the widely reported 'market capitalisation' figure.

3. why do you think bitcoin enables your nightmare scenarios, like kidnapping children in the suburban united states to sell them to paedophiles? if there were already drive to do this and people thought they could get away with it, i'm sure suitcases of cash or wire transfers to borderline-lawless jurisdictions would make for suitable, less trackable payments.

Fore ever and ever. Same shit, and same asshholes.

A government is a company like any other company. Its business model might be challenged by crypto currencies just like Western Union's business model will be challenged but it will have to adapt.

If a government is a company, what is its core service? Security!

In an anarcho capitalistic world (no govenments), there would still exist a demand for security as you point out. This demand will be filled by some entity and the best way to provide security is to control a geographical area, like in a gate community - and what, if any, are the fundamental differences between a gated community and a government? None! We are already living in a world of "privately" owned security companies competing with each other. We just happen to call these kind of companies "governments". We are living in an anarcho capitalistic world already. We who call ourselves libertarians are just not too happy with the quality and price that these companies provide.

Governments will not die since there is a huge demand for their service - security. Governments will adapt and figure out new ways to get a revenue either through property taxes or through head taxes but many people will be hurt in this process as you correctly point out.

A well presented and thought out thesis, and slightly terrifying to say the least.

Personally I feel your being overly pessimistic. Yes this is one set of possible futures. To me though, it has overlooked a key element or flood gate of the money flow into the crypto-currency world.

For sure the potential for a Fiat black hole exists, but it will never all be sucked into it, because fiat is actually backed by something. A proof of work of its own you. People will always require things, companies will still produce those things. A grain of rice will still be worth a grain of rice.  

If your future is inevitable would not the governments simply flick a switch and revert back to kind of gold standard where everything they own armies, roads, gold, would be worth something in bitcoin......they Would still be worth trillions in bitcoin value.  Fiat may no longer exist but a system similar would.

I don't believe bitcoin will destroy governments it will just change the way they work. The debt ridden corrupt financial system will have the big red RESET button pushed and we will have economies of worth, of real value.  

Further the assumption governments will not be able to find away to tax, is to my mind is also overly dystopian. People will still work, they will have physical locations, houses, phones computers. They will have to be paid in, and for bitcoin. If a company is to exist in this new world, they will have to be open to the government of face closure. We live in a world of tracking and information overload. The money flow will be monitored and taxed like never before. Apple will have to disclose its public accounts and taxed on them. Yes some intelligent few will be able to float freely through the system, but with a system where every transaction and following transactions can be traced to the minutest detail, government agencies would quickly adapt to claim their precious revenue.  ....

The incentive is that clean slate with a debt burden that will now no longer exist.

Exactly.  These things may happen but to blame it on Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies is false.  The reaction to 9-11 and the drug war have far more to do with this then Bitcoin.

I think the general point is that nothing of it is specific to bitcoin. What he describes is kind of the neocon hyper-capitalist "dream", which was already a dystopia far before cryptocurrencies were even thought of. A warlike and expansionist government combined with corporate plutocracy could result in the same outcome with say, USD.  Oh wait.

I doubt he needs ur advice. U sound like a kid.

very interesting post, thanks

Already happening before Bitcoin, in countries all over Europe and around the world.  With a total value of less then a few billion the SNACK FOOD industry has more of an impact on the economy. 

This is already happening as well, in Mexico, off the shores of Africa and in many other places.  Does not need Bitcoin to flourish, just people willing to pay kidnappers. 

Already happening, mostly due to the drug war and 9-11 security theater crap.  Bitcoin does not accelerate this either. 


If you want people to take you or lifeboat.com seriously, don't publish link bait FUD CRAP like the above.   

Most of the stuff on this forum focuses on the positive side of bitcoin. I'm delighted to find this kind of post here.