Topic: BitDice Robbed Investors? CSNO lost 80% value - page 2. (Read 3134 times)

BoXXoB, how much did you lose investing into the BitDice ICO? How many CSNO tokens do you hold?

They are not excuses. It's my point of view of what was happening. You are the one making a lot of assumptions based on your own feelings.


You are. Despite what your feelings are, no matter how incompetent the management was, they did not scam the entirety of the ICO proceedings. They scammed whatever was left after their mistakes. EDIT: Unless they somehow planned it from the start which I doubt very much


They matter in painting the picture what was actually scammed. If, as you say, nothing this major is a scam from beginning, then it is very important to know what happened before they actually decided that scam/exit scam was their plan. You have no factual proof to say they ran with most of the proceedings. These are all assumptions. Just like I am making assumptions based on my experience.


Yes, I helped the casino that was very reputable at the time. Investors invested because BitDice was a reputable casino. You can't pin that on me. My actions after the fact did not make investor situation any worse comparing if I never worked for BitDice.


I did not say signs of clear scam. I said there was no clear scam happening. A clear scam would have been if they did not try to make things change for the better in any way. They did though. I may have given them too much benefit of the doubt but I don't like making decisions without facts. If there had been a case where I got a clear sign that investors were forgotten, then I would have acted on it.


You say that as if you can't form an idea based on your interactions with someone and what they say. You are here making claims without ever having dealt with me personally. Is it not a bit hypocritical what you are asking?


This is a completely separate matter. When there were critical bugs or exploits, I advocated for making them public and we did. I did not lead people to think things were OK. You are making it seem like I was, as customer support, supposed to come forward about everything.


Let me just leave this quote from you here:



I just want to know what reality you live in. I promoted ICO of a reputable casino. Investors invested in the ICO of a reputable casino. Neither party knew what was going to happen.


I mostly relayed information to investors without adding any opinion or bias. What you see here on Bitcointalk is a very narrow view over the whole situation and almost all communication I had with investors did not happen here.


Yes, I tried my best to keep investors informed during my time at BitDice. I don't have more information to go on about finding them than what the general public has. I was not privy to any of their private information. I also do not think it's my responsibility to find them. Neither do I feel like I need to personally apologize for the scam. I can only say that I regret working for them but apart from that, I do not owe any apologies.

You are making assumptions. I was not "hiding". I was not active on Bitcointalk for quite some time before I left BitDice. I only returned after dewez asked if I can manage their campaign. You are the one making dewez a "mysterious person". Did you not see his post where he specifically asked to message him if you had questions. Not everyone wants to make their information public on a forum.

EDIT:

I think the main thing here is that none of us have full information about what happened. It's all just assumptions and personal opinions apart from the fact that they eventually ended up scamming.

I'm not the one misrepresenting facts. You are with all of these (factual or or infactual) excuses you're making for the casino.

1. Nothing this major is a scam from the beginning.
2. I'm not misrepresenting anythibg. They ran an ICO, raised what was $10m~ at the time, which is now hundreds of millions or more in value that investors could have had if they didn't invest in the scam. This doesn't included the converted bankroll that I've read about.
2/3. Security exploits, big winners, etc. Does not mean anything. The management that ran BitDice and who sold those proceeds should have used those funds to continue developing on top of the casino and make it a successful business, instead, they ran off which most od the procesaes and sols it over to another party (probably for a large fee) and left them with the mess.

This is not only a scam, but an exit scam as well.

That is, if "new management" are actually different people.

One thing is for sure about new and old management in terms of similarities, they all seem to run away from their wrong doings.

4. You helped with the ICO. You helped management take the loot from investors. Investor money was probably what you got paid with. Reports don't make people more or less happy, they just keep them quiet. Results make people happy, and 99℅+ loss of investment is never going to make anyone happy.

If there was no signs of clear scam BoXXoB, then how much did you lose investing into the BitDice ICO? How many CSNO tokens do you hold?

5. How could you possibly know the the intentions of the original management if you aren't them. Additionally, it doesn't matter what intentions are, the actions say:
- BitDice (bitcointalk: dogedice.me) ran an ICO that raised in excess of $10m USD worth of crypto at the time.
- BitDice publicly sold proceeds which never seem to have been reinjected back into the business
- BitDice mismanaged funds and the BitDice business to the point where CSNO lost 99%+ of its value
- BitDice sold the casino to people who not only didn't have the capital to meet the debt accumulated by the previous owner, but who ultimately drove BitDice to a white screen.

6. And yet, you led people to believe that things were OK while you apparently saw these issues.

7. The casino had thousands of BTC in its bankroll. It was already unsuccessful based on looking at their history in the forum. What happened was, one day the owner woke up and thought "Hmm, how can I make this thousands of BTC in the BitDice bankroll mine?" ... Answer: Convert them all to a useless token and keep the liquid assets. From that point onward it's just a gradual exit.

8. Because you're naïve or it's just what you're saying to keep yourself out of trouble. Either way, you promoted the ICO and was a player in the scam whether you knew it or not, and you should be held accountable.

9. You prompted it during the ICO, you defended the business to angry investors ... You are a part of the scam.

10. You tried your best? I don't see any efforts on your part in finding the scammers, and I don't see any public apologies before I started barking...instead you tried to hide and wait for the dust to settle, and now you're suddenly back managing a campaign for another casino with another mysterious person.

Some things to clarify for reference. I may be repeating some things.

1. BitDice was initially not a scam. Everyone that has any idea knows they were initially a very reputable casino. It was the same expectations that investors had under which I promoted the casino.

I did most of my promoting for BitDice before and shortly after ICO. And after November/December 2020 I did not run a campaign of any sort for BitDice. After that I was nothing more than a support staff and new management did not keep me in the loop about most of the things.

2. BenCodie misrepresents facts by overestimating the size of BitDice scam.

Right after ICO, BitDice sold a large portion of the ICO proceedings. This is public information. There were also exploits that cost the casino large amounts (an example was user exploiting a slot game bug for hundreds of ETH). These were made public. Then there were players who won large amounts legitimately. Based on this and my understanding, BitDice kept making losses and did not turn a profit. Not taking into account running expenses.

3. Based on previous point, BitDice lost a lot of money. This is what I believe ultimately led to the scam when they had lost too much. I do not believe it was planned in advance.

4. During the time I was at BitDice, there was no clear scam happening. They were paying players and at any moment could have started producing reports for investors and everyone would have been more or less happy.

5. I believe what lead to lack of quarterly reports was the losses the casino was making. Not something pre-planned.

6. The management were not good at their job. They focused on the wrong things instead of fixing existing issues. This lead to amount of issues such as bugs growing exponentially.

7. Based on all the previous points, my view is that BitDice tried to make the casino successful but failed miserably.

8. I naively thought for a long time that BitDice would become successful and would make investors whole. This is why I stayed. This is why I kept listening to investors and their concerns. I do not know why BenCodie seems to think there is malice in my involvement. I think it is largely because the full picture is not visible here on Bitcointalk. All the effort I put into making sure investors' questions were answered is not visible here. That makes it easy to point fingers.

9. Going back to what I mentioned in the first point, I did not do promotion of BitDice after November/December 2020. This is one part of why I think blaming me is rather out of proportion.

10. In hindsight, it is clear I should have seen the red flags sooner and left but as I have said, there was no absolutely clear as day scam happening before I left. Only behavior that could lead to it ultimately. But the fact that I stayed with BitDice so long did not make investors' situation any worse. I would argue that I was a big impact on investors being addressed at all. Of course it did not help in the end but I tried my best.

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What I personally want to know is what happened to Alex. Why did he leave and what was the actual purpose of the new management? Did the new management purchase the site and fail to turn it into anything this miserably or is there something else involved?

I looked through that l0tt0 thread and the replies were expectedly dissapointing. People are so terrified of being excluded from future signature campaigns managed by this person that they will either white knight for him and the casino or just look the other way. Very few people are actually willing to call out questionable behavior when they feel there is risk of losing out on a payday. Those that do speak out end up getting trolled and gaslighted.

Quick post with some new information/update for anyone interested.

BoXXoB has come back to being active on the forum and has since been hired to promote a new casino called l0tt0.com who has a mysterious owner (dewez) with a vague (and very innocently described) background, he also happens to not care about the background of BoXXoB due to his unbased, blind trust toward him.

Thread: L0tt0.com. I have asked questions in that thread for some information.

Whether or not BoXXoB is innocent in not knowing about the scam as he describes, I still believe he should have at least some accountability due to the weight he obviously carried in promoting this scam, and his ignorance/negligence throughout the entire process of it becoming a scam.

A bunch of vague promises and kicking the can down the road are textbook examples of rugpull behavior. Even if it was a minor role you played, going along with their BS for 2 years makes you complicit in their scam.

Made an assumption, sure. They had not done anything irrevocable until they actually started scamming users. Up until I left, they made me promises that things would be turning around. Concrete things that gave some reason to believe that were things like them hiring new developers.

It seems clear to me that I will not be able to convince people that my genuine purpose at BitDice was to help players and investors with what I could.

May I add some discussions I've had with Alan regarding my concerns about addressing investors. I hope this atleast proves that I was actively trying to make sure that investors would be addressed. Keep in mind that it often took months until something concrete was done but oftentimes they did do what they promised eventually. So I was not expecting anything immediate. And a while after these questions, I was out of BitDice anyway.

As you can see, I asked for updates, then I followed up on them but I was being dragged on like everyone else.





And additionally, some talk about hiring developers:

Anybody with half a brain cell could've figured out investors were being scammed when they stopped producing quarterly reports, stopped paying dividends, and started making countless excuses for why progress was not being made. When you left this had already been going on for 2 years.

You barely answered any of the questions that I asked. A statement that skips the important questions isn't really valid - though I don't currently have time to repeat myself in refining answered questions and questions asked, however if anyone wants me to do so, I will. Doing a public service is a bit pointless if no one is interested.

Here's my ultimate point:
You hosted campaigns for a casino that stole tens of millions in an ICO, and ran campaigns for that ICO

I don't think you should be trusted by campaign participants because of this fact, whether you knew what was going on with either sides of management or not.

I am very curious about the bitdice investor chat and seeing what information is inside it though as might shed more insight.

I've got a few things to make clear.

• BitDice has not had a signature campaign since November/December 2020
• I left BitDice at February 2022
• BitDice went down at around March 2023

I am being faulted for actions of my employer for which I acted in the sole role of customer support for the final years.

What was really happening at BitDice really became clear only after my departure. One could argue that it was only clear over a year after I left them. The new management was still running things when I left. Customer support was there, players were being paid out etc.

So what is my fault here, exactly? Should I have predicted the future? I did not know what was told to me were lies until afterwards. That added with the fact that I was not running any Bitcointalk campaigns for them for over 3 years before the site went down, I do not really think I owed Bitcointalk specifically any response after I left BitDice.

For clarity, let's recall that most communication towards investors happened over Discord, not Bitcointalk. Bitcointalk was very much a secondary medium of communication.

A side note: I had a small discussion with an investor active in Discord yesterday and they agree that the real, concrete red flags appeared AFTER I left.

EDIT:

A couple of things I still want to address:

• Last time Alex communicated was in May 2021 and could be considered the time new management took over
• Last time I heard from Alex I asked him how we will address investors and he said he would talk to Alan about it. Implying that investors would indeed be addressed at some point. Keep in mind this was May 2021 so not a crazy amount of time before I left BitDice.
• I kept communicating with investors because I wanted to keep them informed out of my own will.

Now that I have clarified those things, it should be pretty clear that it was not that long before I left BitDice when I still had reason to believe investors would be addressed at some point. I think this speaks for the fact that I could not come to the conclusion that BitDice was a scam and therefore I could not "warn" people during my time at BitDice which is that people here seem to have expected me to do. BitDice turned into a clear scam some time after I left them.

As for what comes to how things were under new management, employees were still getting paid, customer cashouts were being handler, site was being developed (albeit a bit slowly). Thus, as far as day-to-day business is, new management seemed to be handling that part. Again, speaking for the fact that I could not make any clear assumptions that BitDice was turning into a scam.

A question outside of our Q/A and discussion: Is this investor chat group still open? Can anyone join?


I think at the very least that your negligence poses a risk to anyone that is participating in your campaigns in the future. If you are unable to tell when a business is showing red flags, and you are even defending a failing business who is fabricating reports, has lost their founder without a trace, raised $10m+ and no one knows where it went, etc...then the fact is that you do not make a good campaign manager. Due diligence and protecting those who participate in your campaigns is a part of your job title. That's why I supported the flag against you and have no intentions of removing it.

If you look at recent signature campaign cases, the moment a casino has proven one single malpractice, the signature campaign manager has closed the campaign and cut ties. You did not do anything similar. You departed yourself, left investors/bitcointalk with no word warnings/statements as to why people should be vigilant about BitDice, and even defended them at some stages, giving false hope to investors. It's the opposite of what you should have done.


I do believe you have valuable information to offer, like emails, chat logs and blockchain information about your payments. "I don't remember" in a world where information and communication is recorded every day is just too hard to accept.

---

Back to the Q/A


I don't really appreciate being indirectly called a pathetic mole. I think that quote doesn't apply to me because I am asking genuine questions about your recollection of events and involvement in the business. This isn't a witch hunt, it's a genuine line of questioning. While I'm not invested in this situation, I find it odd that over $10m-$100m has vamoosed and no one is asking questions. I am only asking more questions because the answers that are being provided are only making me more and more curious. In your case, you have an obligation to answer questions because you worked for them. You are innocent until proven guilty, of course...and I am in no way trying to make you the center of the situation. I am only trying to get as much information as possible so that I'm no longer curious, allow you to move onward, and maybe help people use the information to pursue this further.


If Alan and Magnus started handling the day-to-day, then you would have been paid by them and communicated with them, right? As you (being a campaign manager) would have been a part of the day to day costs. So, when was the date that this occurred? If you truly don't remember then just check your chat/email logs and your bitcoin wallet against the day that Alan and Magnus started paying you instead of Alex.


So you know that you were told lies, yet you can't distinguish what the lies were? So, what lies specifically were you referring to here, and who told you these lies?:


Answering this will help victims distinguish when things started to go wrong and who was under management/around when they started to go wrong. From there pieces can be put together as to why it went wrong.



This raises many questions, but I'll boil it into three simple ones:
- So you never had a direct line of communication with old management?
- Did the same person pay you even during management changes disappeared?
- Who paid you during your employment?


What month and year was this? If you can't remember, check the chat/email log where you were told about it.


To confirm:
Neither old or new management made any sort of announcement or gave any kind of information that the business would be changing management at any stage, to you or investors, other than when new management took over the day to day?

Also, a new question:
If you were just a bounty/campaign manager, why did you continue to defend the business by communicating with investors for them, despite these obvious irregularities/red flags and lack of communication on their end?


Repeated question: What were the month/year of this all happening?
Also, don't you have any emails or chat logs to be able to help to refresh your memory?


Can you timeline these two sentences? For example:
Approximately MONTH YEAR Alex was clearly not in the picture anymore and Alan even made some reports to investors and kept me believing they were going to address investors when the site started doing better. Then, approximately MONTH YEAR I departed from BitDice, and approximately MONTH YEAR the site went completely down.

That might help to understand that at the old management (Alex) clearly disappearing was what lead BitDice to fall. It also then raises the question as to whether or not it was because old management took the funds and left new management with limited resources, or if old management left new management with the resources and they were not capable of following the plan/did not use the funds responsibly. You're free to leave an opinion on that though I'm not asking you the latter directly.

I left BitDice around a year before the site went down. I had my own life to focus on and I did not even log into Bitcointalk for almost a year. So, at the time I left it was not clear what was happening and after that I simply wasn't around or up to date at all.

As you said, nobody told me that it was going to happen and by the time I came back on the forum, BitDice was already gone.

I hope you understand that when I left BitDice, they were not blatantly scamming anyone. That happened while I was gone.

EDIT: Just to be clear, Bitcointalk was never the place where discussion with investors happened. I was always in pretty good terms with investors and kept them up to date in Discord. I'd consider it a pretty big shame if my personal integrity was harmed. I'd understand it if there was some kind of doubt about my own actions but I doubt anyone has reason to accuse me personally.

I'm 50/50 on whether to support the flag or not. On 1 hand, you were just a manager and no company is going to tell an employee we are going to scam everyone. It just doesn't happen, but I am curious when you @BoXXob came to the conclusion investors were being scammed and why you didn't make a post here at least warning people?

Okay? I'm really starting to agree with:

---

I honestly do not know. To my knowledge, when Alan and Magnus appeared, Alex was still running the project but Alan and Magnus were in charge of the day-to-day. Alex only completely disappeared months or even over a year after the new people appeared. I honestly do not remember exactly though.


I do not know what were lies and what were not on whose part. I do not know the motives of Alex and the new management and thus I cannot say who was behind the lies originally.


I do not know whether new management took over as soon as they appeared or later and thus the timing of disappearance with regards to this is unknown to me.


Just that they are in charge of the day-to-day. Nothing else was discussed on this matter.


No. EDIT: Because, as I said, it was not clear in the beginning that they are indeed new management.


I do not remember. I may have asked a question or two but I don't remember. Keep in mind that to my knowledge nothing had changed as far as management goes for a while and it was only after Alex never appeared again when it was clear that management likely had changed.


The new management still kept updating website and Alan even made some reports to investors and kept me believing they were going to address investors when the site started doing better. However, I departed from BitDice much over a year before the site went completely down.

I think you are being a bit crazy about how much of "due diligence" and employee is supposed to do. After all, when I initially joined, it was a successful business and they kept improving just enough that it was never crystal clear that they planned to scam investors.

Although I was very reluctant to address your concerns, they are valid questions but unfortunately I cannot give very valuable information because I was not kept in the loop of the ultimate plans as I have tried to already make clear.

I'd just answer the questions instead of picking at my tone. As far as the facts go, you were an employee of a scam that amounts to tens (maybe hundreds) of millions of dollars. I'd just answer the questions and provide as much information as you can. I believe you at least owe that to victims of the casino you worked for since "way back".


You can stop responding here if you choose to. I don't think that looks particularly great on your part though. I made some questions easier for you if that means anything.

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Unanswered (re-worded based on new info and made easier to answer):

When did management change (month, year)?

Were these lies told to you before or after the new management took over?

Did the original person who hired you disappear at the same time new management took over?
What information was given before/during the management transition?
Did anyone give you a reason why management changed when it did?
Did you question old management about the transition, what was the answer?
Did you question new management about the transition, what was the answer?

You must have an answer to these questions, they are not hard to answer. The answers will help determine whether or not "new management" is a lie (and therefore both the ICO and the entire bitdice operation was operated by one person) or if there is legitimacy to the "new management" narrative. If you are not maliciously involved you shouldn't have a problem answering these questions honestly, and future questions. I believe that you owe answers to the victims for promoting what led to be such a monumental scam.

---

Answered:

I do not appreciate your tone and you're still making quite a bit of assumptions.

However, I will answer a few questions.

I have been a part of a Discord server where BitDice ICO investors have done their own investigation and their conclusion was that Alex is some kind of an abbreviation of an Eastern European name. Alex was the old management. Alan_N and magnus were the new management and I believe investors found some sign that they might be Eastern European aswell but those names don't sound Eastern European. Keep in mind that these are the usernames that they used when communicating with investors aswell and they never introduced themselves by any other names. The only indication I personally got that they might be Eastern European is that Alex sometimes (maybe accidentally) typed in cyrillic letters.

Next, Alex conducted the ICO. Which you would know if you had done your research into the matter.

I was never given information about any change in management. Alex never told us he was stepping down and then he disappeared.

The rest of your questions I do not have answers for. You talking about due diligence and what not when I've told you I was plain and simply an employee who managed their bitcointalk campaigns as well as handled customer support.

Before BitDice had an ICO, they had ran a successful casino for years and had paid out winnings to the tune of hundreds of bitcoins in singular withdrawals. Nobody, including myself, could have suspected that there were ill intentions behind the ICO.

This is as far as I will go with explaining things to you considering you are asking questions that you could have found out by doing your own due diligence. I've always been very transparent discussing issues regarding BitDice and your accusatory tone towards me personally is unfounded.

EDIT: For full disclosure, "Alan_N" did use another username called "Val" which I only now recalled

How many years did you work with management and how many people were a part of this management?


When did new management take over, and when did the original person who hired you disappear?
What makes you "pretty sure" about management using made-up names but old management not using made-up names? This implies that you knew old management better than new management.
My next question, who conducted the ICO, old management, or new management?


So "Alex" is old management which you imply the name is not made up, and new management were made up names?
How informed were you about the transition of management?
Did you not conduct any due diligence at all about these supposedly made up characters that were taking over a business that raised over $10,000,000?
Did "Alex" leave for free, did he sell the business, step down with/without pay? Do you know any of this information?
As a long-time employee, when "Alex" just disappeared and new people with made up names showed up and said "we are your employers now", did you ask any questions to them or "Alex" or did you just say "okay great"?



Were these lies told to you before or after the new management took over?


It's not possible to seriously consider you as just an employee at this point. If you want me to consider you as just an employee, I have to have much less questions than what is arising each time you post...

I don't consider it either. As I said, maybe it was just their way of making it seem like they were actually trying.

Defending BitDice doesn't make sense. They did horribly to everyone. I am not defending them in the slightest.

EDIT: I am just here trying to say I wasn't part of any decision-making and I was not privy to information regarding their ultimate plans. I always told investors' feelings very clearly to the management. They were very well aware about how investors felt but I think they just didn't care.

I don’t consider their update as enough improvements considering how huge money they collected during ICO. They measly added some mediocre game and revamped their UI/UX for more than a year of waiting IIRC then they stop on that especially when the token price is dumping hard.

Bitdice is heavily defended here despite many valid concern against the progress of the casino which in fact already stable before they even begin their ICO. They become slower to develop after they got the money.