Topic: [BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process - page 28. (Read 292138 times)

And let scammers breathe.
Yeah, good idea.
It's been quite a few months, TaT, you know?

He's gone. Maybe it's time to find a professional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUzlmWWdjEQ

I didn't follow here for a while, so I'd like to ask for any significant update. I guess though that nothing changed.

Also, the claim portal seems to be forgotten:


Block info:
2013-12-29 19:01:52
https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000001947cc7acbbc9a240517f9ba19c16b4f937795c6b58019fb5

What exactly was the point of this thread?

This thread... you guys are so masochistically obsessive.

Do really need to fill the internet with hot air, recycled over and over?

Say something new, do something new, or stop talking please.

No.  That means that Jon said that weexchange does not have the funds.  See the difference?


Danny may be an "independent party," but he's certainly not a "disinterested party."  See the difference?


If by "what happened in November" you mean "why/how the funds 'became unavailable'," then Jon has broken the gag order.  
If you don't know any more than what's publically available, it begs the question: "why are you defending Jon's innocence?"


Right.  Because reasons.

TL;DR: If you don't know any more about this mess than we do, your support of Jon is just empty verbiage.  If you do know more, telling us would go a long way towards making you credible -- you're certainly not under a gag order.

That's ok, you should check my post history in this thread for my story though. It's all there.

I have not said anywhere that Ukyo has or hasn't lost the funds, but -he- has said they are not available and that weexchange has no assets. That means weexchange does not have the funds at this point in time, for whatever reason.

I agreed to put my own neck on the line by posting in public for one reason only - to have an independent party provide a viewpoint from a position of knowledge of what was happening at the time. Since I raised the alarm in the first place, I hoped that people would see my as unconnected. It has certainly not been a fun experience thanks to certain individuals who specialise in abuse, but it was my decision, not anyone else's.

So, to be absolutely clear. I am nothing to do with weexchange. I was the first person to properly raise the alarm (reddit, irc). I am working only on information told to me by Ukyo and/or Danny. I am aware of what happened in November but nothing since then. I am one of the mid sized creditors and am aware of people owed much larger sums.

To the best of my knowledge, the only way any of us will see any more money is if Ukyo succeeds in what he was trying to do at that time.

To the best of my knowledge, Ukyo did not steal or use the funds.

To the best of my knowledge, certain factors make it impossible for Ukyo to know how long it will take to finish what he is doing due to other factors.

To the best of my knowledge, at the time it was problematic for the full truth to be revealed without potentially damaging what the remedy was. I do not know if this is still the case and I would like the details to come out. However, even when they do, it's not going to stop any number of conspiracy theories, the only thing that can be done is for us to be repaid.

Oh, also neo didn't have any money in there, Danny did.

Until I can speak with someone to find out the current situ, there is nothing else I can say.

A very good friend of mine works in precisely this area of law, all be it in the UK. I have spoken to them about how it would work here.

I have said it many times now but let me repeat. If Ukyo did not steal the funds and they are not available for some other reason, then it's going to be down to the precise details and a judgement. Moreover, it then comes down to what personal assets are available, and they are going to be nowhere near what is missing. A tiny percentage. And then you need to allow for all the fees involved, and that's if Ukyo were found to be personally liable due to some form of negligence.

You might be interested in my latest posting:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5033659

That's the point I keep saying that some seem to completely misunderstand.
He didn't receive Weex funds from us ($ or BTC) to do anything but:
1) keep them in trust
2) transfer them to a 3rd party if we chose to exchange them (and he take a predefined fee) and thus we would now have funds supplied by the 3rd party of the exchange and they would have our funds ... as per the exchange agreement we chose.
Obviously, the funds can't 'run out'
They can only be lost due to negligence, due to fraud or due to Govt action.
Either of the first 2 add up to the same result - he will be required to repay them.
The different result with the first 2 will be that fraud will most like lead to jail time, whereas negligence would depend on him being able to prove how stupid he was.
Of course the 'Govt' action is easy enough to disprove (or prove)
In all these cases he also will have blockchain info that he can provide but that is also being hidden.
When people hide the truth for month about millions of dollars ... ... ...

Rehashed from an earlier post:

Assume for a moment that Ken from ActM and Ukyo from Bitfunder and Weex are in it together, WEEX was the trap and ActM a lure:

1. Put together a good story for ActM mining asset - the next ASICMiner. This get lots of people sign up and buy in on Bitfunder.
2. Keep that going for a while then close the BF/Weex exchanges (with a similar non reason like BTCT.CO) and stop everyone trading the shares.
3. Ukyo/Weex comes up with a lame story about "the coins are gone" and takes all the remaining deposits minus 6%.
4. Ken dumps another round of shares onto CT ("Ukyo's shares") and take as many coins as possible. Nice cover for Ukyo as then we can blame Ken/ActM for a loss of some BF/Ukyo/Weex money.
5. The people involved go live on a nice island with thousands of easy to smuggle bitcoins leaving behind a couple of battered forum accounts and an empty ActM workshop.

If this carries on much longer, and Ken doesn't release the remaining ActM shares on CT as he's repeatedly promised then this scenario might not be so far fetched?  What do you guys reckon?




 

Where are these big creditors except neobee? And why should all be lost when weexchange goes bankrupt? It cant be something legal that happened. So the company going bankrupt wont stop anything because persons made the problems. And those peoples can be hunted and sued. Weexchange is only a notice on the side for this.


Ukyo claimed that the thing might not be solved in 2 months from now. You really await this whole thing will live on such a long time without infos?
If ukyo really is involved in some gag order and the funds were seized like some think then it would be illegal because these funds dont belong to weexchange. They belong to the users and weexchange hold it in escrow.
Seized coins and stolen coins or mis-sent coins are things that either are illegal or it would be way better when more people hunt behind. Ukyo trying alone would lower chances.


*lol* That would be fun if true. Collect money, make an "error" and lose it and then say "so what?". Its not my fault. Comeon. You dont really believe thats how things work. Errors are done by persons and money hold back that doesnt belong to you are done by other persons illegally too. A company isnt protecting against this. Man... what a world would this be if that would work normally.

What have you got to do with it that you can't say anything for legal reasons?

Why?

Who's legal reasons?

What legal reasons?

You're defending an 'example' of Uyko losing the funds. Sounds like you know whats going on, and that Uyko actually did lose the funds.

You're talking about it like you're involved.  What the shit is going on here?

I'm not cracking a narnie here ffssixtynine, but I am demanding an explanation.

No, the posts are lies - saying that if weex has "no money" means we'd get nothing back.
The law does not turn a blind eye to a director and owner of a company that 'misplaces' their funds held in trust.
If that was the case, then any company out there could simply spend all the money they have and then declare Bankruptcy.
Although I do think the law is stupid (even though there are half a dozen lawyers in my direct family) they are not stupid enough to let people easily get away with losing/hiding funds held in trust.

We probably need to find him first don't you think?

The only thing means the end of our chance of getting funds back is he's gone, which he's probably already or planed to.

Kano,

Can you point out the lie in those posts? Not saying there isn't one, I just didn't see it. Reading on my phone so...

Basically he is saying the money isn't available and won't be available whatever happens from a legal point of view. This is the reason why some large creditors, some of whom are owed a great deal more than I and who do know what's happened (if you had 100s or 1000s of btc stuck you'd not sit back either), have not forced bankruptcy. It would mean the end of their chance of getting funds back. This should be very telling. Ukyo has not been forced into bankruptcy by these guys because it wouldn't help. Similarly, they are content with whatever evidence ukyo has provided that he didn't walk off with the funds in some form. I can only trust in that (I do not wear a tinfoil hat but I did at least meet Danny in person to discuss it).

Danny made a very pertinent comment in a post some time ago. Danny, like I, cannot say anything for legal reasons. I honestly don't know if ukyo can or not at the mo, but Danny did say that of certain information was public then it could damage the very thing trying to be achieved. At the time I could see why. At this point I'm unsure, but I'm two months out of date so I simply can't know.

Losing people's bitcoin is not unlawful by the way. Negligence is complicated legally and highly dependent upon the situation. It's also irrelevant. If weexchange lost coins due to negligence, so what? They are still lost, the company still has no assets, ukyo is unlikely to be found personally liable unless he stole them in some form. I'm angry with ukyo for the situation but that doesn't make him personally or criminally liable.

It's difficult for me to post here because I'm as angry as anyone yet I come across as defending ukyo. Ukyo knows I consider him to blame for this though he also knows I only care about recovering our money and I accepted the past as undoable. I want him to post what happened and what he is doing but it's not my call as I don't want anything which damages the chances of a positive result.

There is nothing else I can say until I speak to him, which I haven't for ages.

What do we do now? He seems disappeared.

Either he's under a gag order by the Govt that he has broken (by telling you), or the crap about a legal reason for not telling us is a lie.
There's no legal reason for not letting us know where our BTC is.

Posts like this are simply either trying to avoid jail time or simply lies his lawyers have told him to say:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4294996

Then of course there was this one - which is indeed a lie.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4277042
Oddly enough, losing people's trust money is ... unlawful. It's called negligence.
More so there is no way to prove it is lost.
"Sorry I never kept a copy of the private keys" doesn't work.
"Sorry I don't have a copy of the private keys the BTC disappeared to" doesn't work either.
"Sorry I accidentally sent them to an address I don't have the key for" only works with an address that is clearly invalid - but is still negligence.
"Sorry, through my negligence, someone else stole all the BTC" doesn't work either - also since it's pretty hard to prove someone actually stole BTC without having a person who actually received it - it's simple to send BTC somewhere that happens to be your own (hidden) private key.

Granted he hasn't said in public what the deal is, but he hasn't lied to my knowledge. There were two issues. One was bitcoind. The other was something else that made the coins unavailable.

All the facts that I have, which I asked to be verified by a third party, tally 100% with everything Ukyo has said. I have not seen anything he has said in public which shows a lie, only a lack of information leading people to make a number of understandable assumptions.

I do not want to absolve Ukyo of blame, let's be clear about that. This issue has cost me a fortune in related decisions (well over 130 BTC lost elsewhere as a result of this 75 BTC issue effectively) so I am incredibly pissed off. I am certainly not the only one. The only way I realised I could sleep at night was to take a deep breath and see it as a risk I knowingly took.

As for the address searches. I, and I believe some others, did this back in November. The more info the better of course, but that isn't a reason for Ukyo to disappear on anyone. There are far bigger creditors than me who know the score here and they would not sit around if Ukyo was acting up, or if he does so in the future.

None of which means we'll see our money. In the mean time, I am going to wait it out.