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Topic: [BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process - page 29. (Read 292138 times)

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
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In case only some have found this. klabaki made some investigation about the weexchange deposit addresses that were collected till now. Its from https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/weexchangebitfunder-user-deposit-addresses-where-are-the-coins-gone-437154

1P7tdTzWhpYoV87L4v4gZwhd6mAnT7fiD4

Thanks. That was my entry point.

Technologies like CoinJoin aren't yet implemented in standard Bitcoin clients.
Therefore, one can safely assume that all transactions signed by WeExchange's addresses are signed exclusively by WeExchange's addresses.

Given this assumption, one can get a list of most of WeExchange's addresses and transactions from only one single address.
The list isn't complete though, because transactions also have a change address which belongs to the sending wallet. The WeExchange wallet places this change address at an unusual output index, so I didn't include it in the list to avoid fan-out into other wallets.

Using the above quoted address as entry point, one will get these addresses:

http://pastebin.com/LZJPeiRM

...and these transactions:

http://pastebin.com/As66ecst
http://pastebin.com/XgsTaiaL

Now, let's sum up the total amount on all of these addresses over time:

http://postimg.org/image/wvq6x2rsl/

...zooming into early October 2013:

http://postimg.org/image/n693ky4m5/

Firstly, I was surprised seeing the first transactions as early as October 2011 - I didn't know that WeExchange existed at that time. Huh
Secondly, I expected the biggest drop to be in mid-November 2013. However, it was early October 2013.

I filtered the list of transactions to find the big one from 3rd of October:

8a77d88fcc9ef418ec97cb2c332efd1378f21aa90188d3000a8c2e4e89f467cb

...it looks like this address received more than one big withdrawal from WeExchange:

19ENdxtYNwdsFbaEF2web7FywgQHdsNCGt

Other addresses receiving big withdrawals from WeExchange include:

115KrBsBGXvW3saUtmY6seXpXysvgd44BS
1D8zFb9jJvmdxwNmuS1TBGh1sfcqUMyRzf

That's all that I could find out for now. Further investigation would concentrate on who owns these addresses, and where did the coins go next...

Donations for my efforts go to 1PaEvsKNTDxhz4kg8rL1samkbgF65P9NMF. Thanks!
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
I'm running out of ideas that don't fall under those ...

Maybe we need to be more creative in our thinking. What if the cold-storage wallet used a 2-of-3 signature transaction between Ukyo, someone that is off the grid and someone that has recently died or become unavailable? Or retrieving some signatures require some contractual requirement that cannot be disclosed? Or maybe even a block-height timeout in the transaction (not sure why he couldn't tell us this though... "you can all have your coins at block height 300000").

After reading today's reddit post about protesting at MtGox (as foolish as that might have been), I realized that the need for secrecy around cold-storage wallets may have caused some entities to enter into non-disclosable contracts with counterparties, key escrow agents, etc. Security through obscurity sort of stuff.  
Nope.
It's all about the laws of having a "Trust" with other peoples money.
The examples you gave don't matter.
If he has entered into an agreement with a 3rd party that isn't legal for him to do so, the agreement is null and void.
"Sorry I can't give them back to you yet" isn't a legal option.

As for MtGox - heh well - yeah that was quite a stir.
(and it's bullshit - it's been happening for 2 months)
They still have 1925 transactions pending and the rest forced back into the people's accounts for the weekend
(most likely MtGox see the opportunity of more transaction fees from that ...)
full member
Activity: 139
Merit: 100
I'm running out of ideas that don't fall under those ...

Maybe we need to be more creative in our thinking. What if the cold-storage wallet used a 2-of-3 signature transaction between Ukyo, someone that is off the grid and someone that has recently died or become unavailable? Or retrieving some signatures require some contractual requirement that cannot be disclosed? Or maybe even a block-height timeout in the transaction (not sure why he couldn't tell us this though... "you can all have your coins at block height 300000").

After reading today's reddit post about protesting at MtGox (as foolish as that might have been), I realized that the need for secrecy around cold-storage wallets may have caused some entities to enter into non-disclosable contracts with counterparties, key escrow agents, etc. Security through obscurity sort of stuff. 
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Pretty simply, if I had 200+ BTC stuck there, I would get a lawyer, but for the ~1 BTC I got there, it's not worth it

So I am surprised all the big creditors are still waiting here, fingers crossed and praying?
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
I admire your optimism.  But how long you going to wait? What if continues to say nothing for another month? It's already been 2. What about another year? Are you okay with that? Because Ukyo has shown 0 progress on this matter. He seems to spend more time on the forums here defending himself than anytime resolving the issue. Why? Because there isn't anything to resolve, he stole the coins, is the most likely answer.

To be fair mate, I didn't say I was optimistic. I can only say that to my knowledge he didn't steal the coins and that he is (or was last we spoke) working on ways to repay us.

The 'only' explanation is not that he stole the coins though. There are a number of other explanations which lead to the coins being unavailable. This has gone on a long time though and I do wish the truth would come out.

Sigh - you are missing the relevant points in all this.
If ASIC (or whichever Govt organisation) has the coins and did some magical gag order on him then he may have grounds to not reveal that to us - however it's probably easy to call ASIC and ask them about that also.

If anything else has happened to them, then he has lied about them.
No, a company cannot request another company hide what happened to missing funds. Simply can't happen. It's illegal.

There are not many other explanations, and none of them seem to not include lying.

If he lost them by screwing up bitcoind then he is still legally liable for them all.
More so since it is impossible to prove he doesn't have access to them any more.
We would have to simply believe him - and since he has already lied about it, only a fool would believe him.
But again, it doesn't matter, he still is required to return the thousands of bitcoins.

If instead he lost them by using the coins, then that is jail time as well as being required to return them.
(and again he's also lied about not revealing what happened)

If he lost them by giving someone else access to them, then again he still is legally liable for them all.
There would probably be also the possibility of charges due to negligence.
(and again we'd have to assume he no longer has access to them, but that cannot be proven)

I'm running out of ideas that don't fall under those ...
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
I'm afraid that Jon's disappeared to avoid jail time, it's just a matter of time before we find out he's using weexchange's money for his own purpose through those addresses. (He disappeared exactly when we started to investigate those addresses connections.)

And we should do something, civilised or nasty thing I don't care. I'm willing to pay 30% of what I have lost if I can get my money back.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
I admire your optimism.  But how long you going to wait? What if continues to say nothing for another month? It's already been 2. What about another year? Are you okay with that? Because Ukyo has shown 0 progress on this matter. He seems to spend more time on the forums here defending himself than anytime resolving the issue. Why? Because there isn't anything to resolve, he stole the coins, is the most likely answer.

To be fair mate, I didn't say I was optimistic. I can only say that to my knowledge he didn't steal the coins and that he is (or was last we spoke) working on ways to repay us.

The 'only' explanation is not that he stole the coins though. There are a number of other explanations which lead to the coins being unavailable. This has gone on a long time though and I do wish the truth would come out.

g83
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Available Now!
UKYO PLEASE GIVE US AN UPDATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
full member
Activity: 160
Merit: 100
I don't see the connection.

Even if ukyo lost a his coin to TF, what does this have to do with the confiscated deposits on weexchange? Or am I missing something.

If you are supposing that because Ukyo lost his personal money,  he seized customers' deposits to cover that, I don't how see how this any different from him not losing money in investments, and seizing his customers' deposits to buy a fleet of sports cars . Both are just as wrong and equally illegal.



I would say he had his hot wallets with TF to earn his huge interest %, or at least most of the funds, if you add up all of the accounts that would of had BTC sitting there either in escrow for trades or the like, he could of exported these funds to try and reap the benefit of the % on offer from TF.

He would of only had to keep 50-100 BTC in we exchange at any one time, only once people withdrew their money he would move it back from Inputs.io....
Which for him would be flagged by the withdrawal action from Bitfunder. It may seem instant on your end but he wouldn't need a whole lot of live cash to keep everything afloat.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1018
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I don't see the connection.

Even if ukyo lost a his coin to TF, what does this have to do with the confiscated deposits on weexchange? Or am I missing something.

If you are supposing that because Ukyo lost his personal money,  he seized customers' deposits to cover that, I don't how see how this any different from him not losing money in investments, and seizing his customers' deposits to buy a fleet of sports cars . Both are just as wrong and equally illegal.

legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1001

The evidence points me to thinking that Ukyo invested in TF and got stung when TF got hacked.


I agree.  This is the most likely event based on the evidence and timeline.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
...
The evidence points me to thinking that Ukyo invested in TF and got stung when TF got hacked.
Although he has once stated that they are "gone" (which really makes me wonder myself) it would be unfortunate if the reason was by his using our funds in a manner (as you have described) that could likely mean jail time ...
full member
Activity: 160
Merit: 100
If I thought he was hiding funds in any way then I'd be shouting about it because 70 btc odd are bloody mine and many people I know have funds stuck as well Sad Anything about governmental gag orders is pure speculation and they certainly would've have been broken by anything that's been said.

The funds aren't available can mean multiple things. I can only say that afaik this is true, that to my knowledge ukyo didn't use or steal them, and he is working on finding a way to pay us all back. At least last we spoke but that was some two months ago now. I really need to catch up and see if I can find out what the situ is.


Please give me one single plausible reason why Ukyo would not be able to happen to all of our coins.

I can not think of a single circumstance where this would be legal and moral.  

The bare facts are: he took deposits knowing he could not pay them back. He used other peoples deposits to pay people who tried to withdraw earlier. He is defaulting on his loans. Millions are missing. He refuses to tell us any details. He paid us 6 cents on every dollar he stole so far.

There are no possible legal reasons (that I can think of) beyond 'if I told you what happened, you'd be able to sue me more easily.'  That's the quote-unquote legal reason that he has for not telling us what he ******** did to all our money.

I admire your optimism.  But how long you going to wait? What if continues to say nothing for another month? It's already been 2. What about another year? Are you okay with that? Because Ukyo has shown 0 progress on this matter. He seems to spend more time on the forums here defending himself than anytime resolving the issue. Why? Because there isn't anything to resolve, he stole the coins, is the most likely answer.

The evidence points me to thinking that Ukyo invested in TF and got stung when TF got hacked.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1018
Buzz App - Spin wheel, farm rewards
If I thought he was hiding funds in any way then I'd be shouting about it because 70 btc odd are bloody mine and many people I know have funds stuck as well Sad Anything about governmental gag orders is pure speculation and they certainly would've have been broken by anything that's been said.

The funds aren't available can mean multiple things. I can only say that afaik this is true, that to my knowledge ukyo didn't use or steal them, and he is working on finding a way to pay us all back. At least last we spoke but that was some two months ago now. I really need to catch up and see if I can find out what the situ is.


Please give me one single plausible reason why Ukyo would not be able to tell us what happened to all of our coins.

I can not think of a single circumstance where this would be legal and moral.  

The bare facts are: he took deposits knowing he could not pay them back. He used other peoples deposits to pay people who tried to withdraw earlier. He is defaulting on his loans. Millions are missing. He refuses to tell us any details. He paid us 6 cents on every dollar he stole so far.

There are no possible legal reasons (that I can think of) beyond 'if I told you what happened, you'd be able to sue me more easily.'  That's the quote-unquote legal reason that he has for not telling us what he ******** did to all our money.

I admire your optimism.  But how long you going to wait? What if continues to say nothing for another month? It's already been 2. What about another year? Are you okay with that? Because Ukyo has shown 0 progress on this matter. He seems to spend more time on the forums here defending himself than anytime resolving the issue. Why? Because there isn't anything to resolve, he stole the coins, is the most likely answer.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
If I thought he was hiding funds in any way then I'd be shouting about it ...
Um? Sorry is English an issue for you? (Yes I ask that seriously)
Not telling the owners of the funds, where the funds are, IS "hiding the funds"
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1035
The funds aren't available can mean multiple things.

not available here is certainly merely a euphemism for gone Undecided
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
If I thought he was hiding funds in any way then I'd be shouting about it because 70 btc odd are bloody mine and many people I know have funds stuck as well Sad Anything about governmental gag orders is pure speculation and they certainly would've have been broken by anything that's been said.

The funds aren't available can mean multiple things. I can only say that afaik this is true, that to my knowledge ukyo didn't use or steal them, and he is working on finding a way to pay us all back. At least last we spoke but that was some two months ago now. I really need to catch up and see if I can find out what the situ is.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
The thing is, Glendall, that I do know the reasons as they stood back in nov/dec and I do understand. If you read Danny and ukyo's posts there is a hint there that saying too much could lower the chances of us being repaid.
...
Sigh, yet again proving the point that it is simply someone hiding details.

It it was a Govt order to shut Ukyo up about the details, then you have (again) just stated that he broke the gag order and is in deep shit with the Govt that required it.

If it was anything else, then the 'anything else' is a complete load of crap.
Hiding the funds of a trust company (which is how the funds are held) is not something anyone can do for any reason - it's illegal.
newbie
Activity: 37
Merit: 0

If someone can show I am wrong on this then to ahead. However, it's about the law and business entities, not what you think is right. Basically, can ken under US law claim some rights to ukyo's personal assets, as a Belize company, when ukyo's Australian company owed it money? Everywhere I read about this people are confusing who owns or owes what. And no, being sole director doesn't make you automatically personally liable for a company's debts. That's half the point of a ltd company.

Re: the limited liability issue; I would have previously agreed that Ken doesn't legal grounds to stand on to seize Jon's personal shares to absolve the debt held by WeExchange, but it seemed to me that Jon blurred the lines of limited liability to begin with when he put forth using the shares to make repayments. But I also really have no idea. You're right that it's just a pretty convoluted situation - and that in part seems to be what has influenced Ken to act as he has, because it seems like it would be a giant pain for Jon to work it out legally.
sr. member
Activity: 493
Merit: 262
Thanks man, those are great!!!

Someone please post Jon Montrol's home address, passport copy, his family informations and or related stuff, or pm me and I will post them.
 
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bza0Sx1iSRWqYVRiMkRaLVlrcFE
Thanks, but I take no credit for these. Someone else compiled that folder, couldn't find a reference though, just had it bookmarked.
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