Topic: [BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process - page 47. (Read 292108 times)

Yeah guys, don't keep asking and wondering why Ukyo can't tell you why your funds are unavailable or ask what Ukyo is doing to ensure that all funds will be 'recovered'.

EDIT: Hah! Ukyo must have deleted his post right after I quoted him here.

1. If I was under a gag order, and chose to lie -- I would be lying.  Those calling it a lie would be correct.  Those claiming that i did not lie would be wrong.  This is kindergarten stuff, not sophistry.

2. Irrelevant.  Dimebag Pedro has a habit to feed, he has no choice but to steal from me.  This doesn't change the fact that he steals.

3.  I pointed out that it is not a possibility.  Other people's lawyers are no more exempt from gag orders than other people's plumbers.  How many ways do i need to say it?  NeoBee's lawyers are not in a privileged relationship with Jon.  None of this spaghetti is sticking.

Again zero new info. The coins are gone and you will do everything. Great. The fact that you always claimed its a technical problem lets me think its nothing like a gag order. You try to repair it so for some reason they arent available. Though i cant understand since you should have all the private keys.

Anybody know how to contact the forum lawyer besides his email? Or is there any other good lawyer that accepts bitcoin?

I think there has been enough speculation now.
The short of it, is that the funds are not available for distribution.
This is fact. Reasoning behind it won't change this.
We are doing what we can to make funds available to users.
The holidays have greatly disrupted any if not all potential business activity for the past few weeks.
Right now my biggest goal is to get AM claim system up while keeping everything else moving as best as things allow in the mean time.

I will post an update as soon as the AM claim portal is ready.

Thank you for your continued patience.

-Ukyo

Yes you are. Do you call it a lie when a judge orders you to keep something secret, and the only way to achieve that is omit information and/or lie?


I never said anything was benign. Im suggesting Ukyo may not have a choice in the matter.
As for Danny's claims, they can be perfectly reasonable and honest based on the information he has.


Its one of many possibilities I pointed out. And yes, its plausible, its quite possible the gag order restricts Ukyo from making certain information public, but it may not restrict him in talking to any lawyer, be it his own, or one more versed in the subject that Ukyo may or may not have hired as his own. It may not even restrict him from talking about it to Danny, provided Danny doesnt make this info public.  Ukyo may have obtained permission to talk to neobee about it in order to come to a resolution.

If Trap and Trace would be installed already when BF was alive then it wouldnt make sense to close BF. An i think they even wouldnt allow it to not lose their target person.

I wonder what National Security could be involved. Of course "they" always misuse things.

If he was allowed to speak to NEOBEE then he would be allowed to speak to us too. They wouldnt risk that NEOBEE is spreading the info. On top... why should they allow someone gets involved in order to spread Bitcoins? Either they want to block payments or not. But something in between sounds strange.

BF and Weexchange had the same wallet. Weexchange. Bitcoins on BF only were there virtually. But even then...he would have refunded differently. If Bitcoins are in limbo because they are officially at one of the sites then someone that had his funds not at this website would have to get all his bitcoins back. And it wouldnt be needed to repair something. Ukyo always claimed there were technical problems and he needs to access the coins. That practically denies a gag order i believe. Or should i believe thats a cover story? That even NEOBEE is playing in it? Possible but i dont think its likely.
If its because of bitfunder why was burnside allowed to pay everything back?

If ukyo plans to run it independently this way i will use a lawyer for sure. Till now i only want to ask for infos but if he will let this stay much longer i dont have a choice.

No.  I'm not interested in semantics.  The crux of the matter is Danny claims to understand this situation enough to become involved.   You seem to be implying that while there is lying going on, but the lies are benign and should be overlooked.
You further offer up absurd scenarios where Jon is somehow allowed to talk to Danny's lawyer, because, well... lawyer.  And that lawyer, not being Jon's lawyer, and thus not being bound by... anything, in turn relays this information to Danny.
Are you serious?   Is that what passes for a plausible scenario here?

Sigh. This is becoming semantics. A gag order pretty much forces you to lie.  If Ukyo's gag order did not allow him to speak to Danny about some NSL, and Ukyo did abide by it,  but Ukyo did tell Danny about troubles with the SEC, would you expect Danny to say anything other than claiming to have full understanding of the situation? Similarly if Ukyo violated his gag order, would you expect Danny to make that public?


We dont know whats in the gag order, if there is one. They can be extremely broad or narrow in scope.

He obviously told Danny enough for Danny to become involved.  Dany claims complete understanding of the situation.  Either Danny is not telling the truth, or Ukyo broke the gag order.
Being allowed to discuss matters under a gag order with another party's legal counsel (which, in turn, discusses it with a third party) is simply absurd.
*NeoBee's counsel is no more privileged in this case than Dimebag Pedro -- none of the Attorney-client stuff applies.

Maybe he didnt tell Danny everything, explaining also why there seems to be a disagreement between them in what can be revealed. Maybe he told Neobee legal counsel which might not be a violation of the gag order. Maybe the gag order is limited to public and press, and Ukyo is allowed to talk to Danny. Im neither psychic nor a lawyer, but this seems a far more probable line of thought than this being a straight scam.

@Puppet:

If a gag order existed, Ukyo would be V& -- he ran afoul of it by discussing the matter with Danny.

Please give a plausible scenario where revealing information to Danny would be exempt.

Trap and trace could have been installed a long time ago, potentially long before the closure of BF/WE or even SR. You wouldnt have known, thats why they invented gag orders. Also, the transactions could have been done ages ago, but some funds might still be on BF or can be tracked indirectly to accounts currently on BF/WE. Feds would be interested in trying to obtain their users identity.


Possibly its a matter of interpretation what Ukyo is allowed to say and what he is not. As an example, he would almost certainly not be allowed to speak of a silk road related T&T, but it might be less clear if he is allowed to speak of a SEC or FinCEN investigation/seizure relating to his own activities. Perhaps Neobee thinks he can do that, while Ukyo doesnt dare. National security letters are no joke. Keep in mind that afaik burnside never explicitly said SEC or FBI had anything to do with the closure of his site, while reading between the lines, this was fairly obvious.


Authorities would likely consider BF and WE two separate entities conducting a separate kind of business. Burnside was allowed to refund his customers and just cease operations orderly. Likewise its not unthinkable BF is allowed to dissolve orderly and the funds that are being attributed to BF are allowed to be refunded, while WE is not permitted to do any money transmission activities and/or its funds are seized. Another possibility is that funds are being cleared by authorities once its established they are not related to SR or whatever it is they are investigating, or once the identity of the owner has been confirmed. Although admittedly, the latter would make a pro rata refunding rather bizarre.


Tell that to SR customers. Or bitcoin-24 customers for that matter. Of course funds and bitcoins can be seized during an investigation. Doesnt mean they will never be released back, but God knows how long that can take.


If my hypothesis is correct, Ukyo wouldnt know himself. NSL's have an open-ended, lifelong gag order. Basically you are not allowed to even say you got one until the FBI tells you that you can.

Whats the sense of Trap and Trace when SR isnt anymore and a traced user would have to be really stupid using the same address again? Of course authorities normally arent known as the smartest when it comes to internet related things.
Didnt NEOBEE write that he would have told the truth long ago but he accept ukyo's decision? Doesnt sound like ukyo really is bound legally.
Why should ukyo being allowed to pay back a part of the bitcoins to all users? Doesnt make much sense.
Is it really allowed to seize funds that belong to others? Its not that these bitcoins are ukyo's bitcoins or of its company. They bitcoins clearly belong to the users. If they take them away its stealing and should be different than when we invested in weexchange because then it would become ukyo's funds.

Ukyo please give a time when you reveal the truth!

I dont see whats highly improbable. We know for fact Silk Road is being investigated, and its almost certain some other bitcoin scheme's/scams are being investigated as well. Its unthinkable authorities are not at least trying to track associated bitcoin transactions. Its also very likely at least some SR dealers or users would have used BF/WE (as well as other exchanges and possibly security exchanges). For authorities to gain access to BF/WE's IP logs, email addresses and other data, they would have needed a 2703(d) order. I would go as far as saying it would be very surprising if this had NOT happened. Since a 2703 order is subject to a gag order, and a gag order actually would have made some sense, especially if a "trap and trace" was put in place, Ukyo would not be allowed to disclose this.

As for the inability to pay out, here is one of many possibilities; while BF/WE may have been targeted initially just to help catch SR users, it would quickly have become clear to authorities that the exchange itself (not too mention, all the asset issuers) is/are violating all kinds of laws, and once they collected the data they needed for the main investigation, it was shut down, possibly with servers/assets/wallets seized. Danny might be helping in providing a legal way to refund customers without violating money transmission laws, as his company might have the required licenses. The fact that most bitcoins are unavailable might be related to the distinction between BF and WE, with funds supposedly belonging to one or the other being seized. You might guess BF funds were still available as in the past security exchanges have been allowed to close to down properly, see BTCT.

Foot note: Im not risking a single satoshi in this, and Im not exactly afraid to call something a scam when I think it is one. Its just that in his case there is a much more likely explanation. One that in fact, Ive been predicting for quite some time.

Finally i got at least 9BTC out.

ukyo please give a timeline when you will reveal the truth about the missing coins.

The forum lawyer didnt react yet. Someone wrote me he is in holiday now.

Ukyo where is our promised AM share transfer page??? Friday now!!!

I agree that a warning should have been on the site earlier but unfortunately communication between exchanges and customers doesn't seem to be the norm in bitcoin land  :-(


pascal257, are you so naive to neglect that bitcoind actually also struggles on the claim site? (but this time it automatically restarts)

Are you really that naiv to still believe that there was an issue with bitcoind?

The main problem of WeExchange was and is that its run by Ukyo.

You are right that it was not 2 months, but it is true that Ukyo still allowed deposits when he new that withdrawal was practically impossible. At that point he might not have known that funds would get stuck for such a long time but at least he should have warned people that withdrawal was impossible for some time. For some time he failed to do this, in spite of several people asking for this explicitly.

We might not have much information but don't change the facts. Deposit of funds were disabled less than a month after the withdrawal problems started.
While we have yet to see proof of of the opposite, you can't just make the statement that "he knew that the users would not receive their coins".

I think it is quite clear that WeExchange has suffered from multiple issues as Ukyo also said. At least the bitcoind issue and some legal issue, which probably started around the 20th of November.