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Topic: Bitmain announces plan to create altcoin if BIP148 succeeds - page 10. (Read 16964 times)

legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Jihan can say he wants to take a bite out of the moon because its made of green cheese, that don't mean he really wants to do that or that he really believes it. What Jihan really wants is control over Bitcoin so he can make more money. All of his actions have been to this effect.

That is nothing but baseless rumour. Evidence please

What evidence do you actually need?

Everyone and his hungry dog want to make more money. Do you need evidence for that too, especially when you have a lot at stake in something? Jihan has likely invested millions of dollars in ASICs, and now you essentially claim that him wanting to protect his investments and earn more money is a baseless rumor. I understand that Jihan's shills know no limits in arguing virtually anything that goes against their master's agenda but they should certainly care not to sound like complete dumbasses at that

Evidence Jihan wants control over Bitcoin.

I have nothing against people making money. I am against people trying to destroy/limit Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more
If you think that is the answer, then you're just as uninformed. The main reason is covert ASICBOOST.

mmh could be apparently the exploit is not possible on other algo for now, but nothing say that it could not be possible in the future, behind the asic of litecoin, there is always bitmain

so in the future they might regret choosing segwit on litecoin, if they will able to find a similar exploit, still the fee ar enot negligeable, they provide an income which is on par or at least very near with asicboost of 20%
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 1142
Ιntergalactic Conciliator
https://blog.bitmain.com/en/uahf-contingency-plan-uasf-bip148/

Bitmain is announcing that if BIP148 succeeds, then they are essentially going to mine a new SHA-256 altcoin instead of Bitcoin. If you don't do anything, it'll be as if mining power dropped somewhat, but you'll otherwise be completely unaffected.

I feel like some people might read this statement as trying to force a decision between Bitmain's altcoin and BIP148, but you should be roughly equally unaffected whether or not you enforce BIP148. It might help BIP148's chances a little due to removing Bitmain from consideration and therefore increasing the chances of activating the traditional BIP141 SegWit deployment, though I continue to be pessimistic about BIP148's chances; I consider continuation of the status-quo and a somewhat later BIP149 UASF as the most likely outcome.

I kinda doubt that they're actually going to stick by what they say here, but if they do, it only seems like good news. If you'd like to use a currency controlled by a single company that puts its ability to use its patented Asicboost tech above all other considerations, feel free! I'll stick with Bitcoin, thank you very much.

Actually, after a dangerous *soft fork* split with a minority hash rate, there's in fact nothing else to do for the initial majority legacy chain than to protect itself by a hard fork.  I said this a few weeks ago already.  

A soft fork imposes itself onto everybody if it is majority.  As such, a soft fork that starts out as (large) majority before being activated is not a problem from a chain splitting point of view, because the minority of miners that would like to continue the legacy chain are DIRECTLY orphaned.  This was the principle behind soft forks and things like 95% majorities.  The user will not see any difference: the chain seems to continue, and has uniformly switched to the new protocol.

A bilateral hard fork is a "clean split".  Yes, the chain splits, but once you have your two new coins, they live their independent lives happily.  You can trade them on exchanges, and by doing so, you vote with your money ; hash rate will follow.  See ETC/ETH.

However, BIP148 is a major cluster fuck: it wants to instore a chain split with a soft fork, where the soft fork is a minority split.  The whole idea of BIP148 is that bitcoin splits, that two bitcoins are listed on exchanges, and that, so is the hope, users will buy 148-bitcoin, and dump their legacy bitcoins, attracting more and more hash rate to 148-bitcoin, until it gains majority.  After a while, the 148-coin chain takes over the legacy chain, and orphans them.  But that can happen after a month or so, and all people having transacted on the legacy chain (in buying/selling coins on exchanges) suddenly see their chain (and their holdings on it) disappear !

This is a clusterfuck that should be avoided: once the two coins are appearing on exchanges, one should consider them independent, to protect the holdings of people on each chain (as well as for exchanges to be able to respect their customers and let them withdraw coins of the types they bought IOU of).  This is why in such a case, the legacy chain has NO CHOICE but to hard fork, to protect itself from re-organization, and to keep the split permanent, to turn the dangerous soft fork split into a bilateral hard fork.  Note that this could be done with a very minor modification, that doesn't even alter anything to the original chain (but honestly, if one does a HF, one could take the opportunity to increase the block limit too).  It would even be wise, in this HF, to alter slightly the signature scheme, to avoid the night mare of replay attacks, which would make it almost impossible to do what 148-coin wants people to do: to sell their legacy bitcoin, and to buy 148-bitcoin.  Because with replay attacks (especially with a soft fork !) they will have a hard time NOT selling at the same time, their 148 coins.

In other words: bip 148 is such a mess if ever it gets activated, that the only way to clean it out, is to have the legacy chain HF and make the split clean.



imo all of this forks has not future especially without a replay attack. Exchanges will do days to trade them and of course legacy chain will survive.
As is say i will be very happy if this guys fork from bitcoin. If bitmain leave from bitcoin the network  hashrate will go back 4-5 months and if all of the miners that support bitmain leave like Viabtc, BTCTOP then the hashrate will be like 6 months before.
That means nothing happens and bitcoin network can easily move on.  
I am very sure the most Bitmain competitors wish right now this to happen to get their place.
August will be a very interest months especially to the economical game theory view.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Jihan can say he wants to take a bite out of the moon because its made of green cheese, that don't mean he really wants to do that or that he really believes it. What Jihan really wants is control over Bitcoin so he can make more money. All of his actions have been to this effect.

That is nothing but baseless rumour. Evidence please

What evidence do you actually need?

Everyone and his hungry dog want to make more money. Do you need evidence for that too, especially when you have a lot at stake in something? Jihan has likely invested millions of dollars in ASICs, and now you essentially claim that him wanting to protect his investments and earn more money is a baseless rumor. I understand that Jihan's shills know no limits in arguing virtually anything that goes against their master's agenda but they should certainly care not to sound like complete dumbasses at that
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more

If Bitmain want bigger blocks, Jihan said many times he wants bigger blocks, then why do people go on about bigger fees, greedy, etc. Bigger blocks will result in lower fees but more transactions. The increases in transaction means more accumulation of lower fees. This is a win win for miners and users. Presently miners are the winners and the users are the losers due to 1mb limit.

Jihan can say he wants to take a bite out of the moon because its made of green cheese, that don't mean he really wants to do that or that he really believes it. What Jihan really wants is control over Bitcoin so he can make more money. All of his actions have been to this effect.

That is nothing but baseless rumour. Evidence please.

Basically we have too much anti-chinese thing going on.
newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
Can we please stop with the "I was in Bitcoin before you and therefore I'm an expert in scaling Bitcoin" & "Satoshis vision"?
These are not arguments!

Please describe how Jihancoin is decentralized? It will be mined by one company only.

Actually we do not know that quite yet. It's difficult to guess who the bitcoin community (whatever the rolo they play) is going to back.
The only deduction I could rightfully make is that the total number of transactions of the 2 chains is going to decrease due to loose of trust in bitcoin-ish cryptostuff and because both, Bigblocking and Segxit, are meassures to tackle bottlenecks in transaction flows. Therefore transaction fees are to fall. we all should cheer about that, at least, no matter if you are a user, a holder, a miner or a trader.

It is also soon to value the impact on bitcoin public image.
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
Can we please stop with the "I was in Bitcoin before you and therefore I'm an expert in scaling Bitcoin" & "Satoshis vision"?
These are not arguments!

Please describe how Jihancoin is decentralized? It will be mined by one company only.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more

If Bitmain want bigger blocks, Jihan said many times he wants bigger blocks, then why do people go on about bigger fees, greedy, etc. Bigger blocks will result in lower fees but more transactions. The increases in transaction means more accumulation of lower fees. This is a win win for miners and users. Presently miners are the winners and the users are the losers due to 1mb limit

This is a very superficial logic

In reality, things are more complicated than that. In other words, we shouldn't take anything at its face value when we are told something ("believe half of what you hear..."). If Jihan said something, it doesn't mean he was really going to do that. Do you really believe that he is going to hard fork Bitcoin and create a Wucoin? Further, you seem to erroneously assume that the block size increase will actually increase the number of transactions. It may in fact increase them somewhat, but not as dramatically as to offset the decline in fees. This is where things get complicated, and miners are the ones who have the first hand info in this department. But that doesn't mean they will share it with us, of course
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
There's an argument to be made that there could be a BTC supply shortage on exchanges prior to August 1st, due to a larger percentage of people pulling their bitcoins off into wallets they control. If that happens, but demand remains constant, you could see the price go higher. I'm currently bearish, but there might be an opportunity there for people willing to take the risk of keeping their bitcoins for sale on the exchanges nearer to August 1st.

Keeping your coins on an exchange may be your only chance to capitalise on multiple chains. It's quite possible one or more will be so painfully slow until a difficulty change that you won't be able to move them quickly enough. By that point it may all be over.

That's true, too, as long as the exchange provides you with virtual bitcoins on both sides of the fork. It's not clear to me that every exchange will do so

Coinbase will certainly refrain from that

As I got it, they basically stole Ethereum Classic from their users after the Ethereum split, so there shouldn't be any doubts that they will do it again with Bitcoin (though they may have hard time this time given they are going to support the hardfork). Major exchanges (like Bitfinex) will likely create wallets for the new coin when the dust settles a little. Regarding moving coins from exchanges to personal wallets, I'm more inclined to think that most traders will just sell their stashes for fiat or other coins such as Litecoin or Ethereum (I opted for Litecoin myself), and that will likely crash the prices on its own (this might be what we already see commencing)
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 263
The devil is in the detail.
i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more

If Bitmain want bigger blocks, Jihan said many times he wants bigger blocks, then why do people go on about bigger fees, greedy, etc. Bigger blocks will result in lower fees but more transactions. The increases in transaction means more accumulation of lower fees. This is a win win for miners and users. Presently miners are the winners and the users are the losers due to 1mb limit.

Jihan can say he wants to take a bite out of the moon because its made of green cheese, that don't mean he really wants to do that or that he really believes it. What Jihan really wants is control over Bitcoin so he can make more money. All of his actions have been to this effect.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more

If Bitmain want bigger blocks, Jihan said many times he wants bigger blocks, then why do people go on about bigger fees, greedy, etc. Bigger blocks will result in lower fees but more transactions. The increases in transaction means more accumulation of lower fees. This is a win win for miners and users. Presently miners are the winners and the users are the losers due to 1mb limit.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
One of your leaders , Adam Back, thinks users would be ok paying $100 / fee.
Outright lie. Then again, what to expect from someone with a history of lying and shilling for Ver? Roll Eyes

i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more
If you think that is the answer, then you're just as uninformed. The main reason is covert ASICBOOST.

I think Jihan is just getting nervous and it has become personal at this point.
It doesn't even matter anyway. Aside from turbulence in the price, I couldn't care less what he wants to do with JihadChain. I have no idea how any rational mind, who joined the ecosystem for the ideas laid down by Satoshi, would want to participate in JihadCoin. The mining monopoly/cartel is the true cancer to Bitcoin, and the worst thing to happen to it since Mt. Gox (arguably).

Update: Correct somewhat misleading sentence.
full member
Activity: 261
Merit: 100
I think Jihan is just getting nervous and it has become personal at this point.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
https://blog.bitmain.com/en/uahf-contingency-plan-uasf-bip148/

Bitmain is announcing that if BIP148 succeeds, then they are essentially going to mine a new SHA-256 altcoin instead of Bitcoin. If you don't do anything, it'll be as if mining power dropped somewhat, but you'll otherwise be completely unaffected.

I feel like some people might read this statement as trying to force a decision between Bitmain's altcoin and BIP148, but you should be roughly equally unaffected whether or not you enforce BIP148. It might help BIP148's chances a little due to removing Bitmain from consideration and therefore increasing the chances of activating the traditional BIP141 SegWit deployment, though I continue to be pessimistic about BIP148's chances; I consider continuation of the status-quo and a somewhat later BIP149 UASF as the most likely outcome.

I kinda doubt that they're actually going to stick by what they say here, but if they do, it only seems like good news. If you'd like to use a currency controlled by a single company that puts its ability to use its patented Asicboost tech above all other considerations, feel free! I'll stick with Bitcoin, thank you very much.

Actually, after a dangerous *soft fork* split with a minority hash rate, there's in fact nothing else to do for the initial majority legacy chain than to protect itself by a hard fork.  I said this a few weeks ago already.  

A soft fork imposes itself onto everybody if it is majority.  As such, a soft fork that starts out as (large) majority before being activated is not a problem from a chain splitting point of view, because the minority of miners that would like to continue the legacy chain are DIRECTLY orphaned.  This was the principle behind soft forks and things like 95% majorities.  The user will not see any difference: the chain seems to continue, and has uniformly switched to the new protocol.

A bilateral hard fork is a "clean split".  Yes, the chain splits, but once you have your two new coins, they live their independent lives happily.  You can trade them on exchanges, and by doing so, you vote with your money ; hash rate will follow.  See ETC/ETH.

However, BIP148 is a major cluster fuck: it wants to instore a chain split with a soft fork, where the soft fork is a minority split.  The whole idea of BIP148 is that bitcoin splits, that two bitcoins are listed on exchanges, and that, so is the hope, users will buy 148-bitcoin, and dump their legacy bitcoins, attracting more and more hash rate to 148-bitcoin, until it gains majority.  After a while, the 148-coin chain takes over the legacy chain, and orphans them.  But that can happen after a month or so, and all people having transacted on the legacy chain (in buying/selling coins on exchanges) suddenly see their chain (and their holdings on it) disappear !

This is a clusterfuck that should be avoided: once the two coins are appearing on exchanges, one should consider them independent, to protect the holdings of people on each chain (as well as for exchanges to be able to respect their customers and let them withdraw coins of the types they bought IOU of).  This is why in such a case, the legacy chain has NO CHOICE but to hard fork, to protect itself from re-organization, and to keep the split permanent, to turn the dangerous soft fork split into a bilateral hard fork.  Note that this could be done with a very minor modification, that doesn't even alter anything to the original chain (but honestly, if one does a HF, one could take the opportunity to increase the block limit too).  It would even be wise, in this HF, to alter slightly the signature scheme, to avoid the night mare of replay attacks, which would make it almost impossible to do what 148-coin wants people to do: to sell their legacy bitcoin, and to buy 148-bitcoin.  Because with replay attacks (especially with a soft fork !) they will have a hard time NOT selling at the same time, their 148 coins.

In other words: bip 148 is such a mess if ever it gets activated, that the only way to clean it out, is to have the legacy chain HF and make the split clean.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
So long as Bitmain's shitcoin is not named Bitcoin they can and should mine it, put all their miners on it and leave them there.

Good thing is if the hashrate drops a bit, or quite a bit, we'll all have a chance to mine ourselves.
So long as it doesn't upset network stability that much we should be fine.

Mining has become impossible for most people, last time I mined (mostly for fun and to learn more about it) was with Butterfly Labs (yes I did get mine, eventually), Bit Burners, and USB Erupters LOL
Soon after that it became too costly for small players like me to have a go.

One thing I'd like is transactions to be less expensive and Bitcoin to attract more users should really be inexpensive to use.

Let's see how things pan out...


Even if the hash rate got cut in half , ordinary people can't mine.

If big blockers leave , small block philosophy won't help fees.   One of your leaders , Adam Back, thinks users would be ok paying $100 / fee.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1000
So long as Bitmain's shitcoin is not named Bitcoin they can and should mine it, put all their miners on it and leave them there.

Good thing is if the hashrate drops a bit, or quite a bit, we'll all have a chance to mine ourselves.
So long as it doesn't upset network stability that much we should be fine.

Mining has become impossible for most people, last time I mined (mostly for fun and to learn more about it) was with Butterfly Labs (yes I did get mine, eventually), Bit Burners, and USB Erupters LOL
Soon after that it became too costly for small players like me to have a go.

One thing I'd like is transactions to be less expensive and Bitcoin to attract more users should really be inexpensive to use.

Let's see how things pan out...
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
exactly.  the decisions already have been made.  99.9% of bitcointalk is just noise to the world.

Ok, why dont you leave Bitcointalk and join youre BU buds at reddit/btc?


its still fun to stomp on trolls, both little and big.

Quote


B..but what happend with youre almighty BU? I thought Segwit was the worst thing could ever hapen for Bitcoin, IF i believed Jihan? And now Jihan is working with Core's disign called SEGWIT. Ha ha ha Tongue

Hypocrite? Fooled by Jihan? maybe a mix from both?


BU is a schelling point.  big blockers want diversity of clients, BU, XT, Classic , etc.

SWSF is pretty bad -- i think it won't get activated.




legendary
Activity: 3512
Merit: 4557
exactly.  the decisions already have been made.  99.9% of bitcointalk is just noise to the world.

Ok, why dont you leave Bitcointalk and join youre BU buds at reddit/btc?

B..but what happend with youre almighty BU? I thought Segwit was the worst thing could ever hapen for Bitcoin, IF i believed Jihan? And now Jihan is working with Core's disign called SEGWIT. Ha ha ha Tongue

Hypocrite? Fooled by Jihan? maybe a mix from both?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political


Unfortunately a HF may not get rid of Bitmain from either chain.  They have enough hash power to prop both chains as far as I can tell.
 

if they had that much hash, we would have forked already.
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