Topic: Bitmain announces plan to create altcoin if BIP148 succeeds - page 13. (Read 16934 times)
No need for drama guys. Could someone simply state a technical reason why the core proposal would not be a good idea?
There's an argument to be made that there could be a BTC supply shortage on exchanges prior to August 1st, due to a larger percentage of people pulling their bitcoins off into wallets they control. If that happens, but demand remains constant, you could see the price go higher. I'm currently bearish, but there might be an opportunity there for people willing to take the risk of keeping their bitcoins for sale on the exchanges nearer to August 1st.
Keeping your coins on an exchange may be your only chance to capitalise on multiple chains. It's quite possible one or more will be so painfully slow until a difficulty change that you won't be able to move them quickly enough. By that point it may all be over.
Selling bitcoins before the split would be a wise decision any way you look at it. It is almost a certain that price will crash after the split (even if temporarily) or even before it (if it is really going to happen, due to insiders cashing out), so the risk is not worth it. If you don't know which camp to stick to, you can buy back both coins at cheaper price, and thus you would be better off overall than if you decided just to hold. I guess I won't have to explain where exactly your logic fails. It should be straightforward
There's an argument to be made that there could be a BTC supply shortage on exchanges prior to August 1st, due to a larger percentage of people pulling their bitcoins off into wallets they control. If that happens, but demand remains constant, you could see the price go higher. I'm currently bearish, but there might be an opportunity there for people willing to take the risk of keeping their bitcoins for sale on the exchanges nearer to August 1st.
Cool story, please sell your entire stash now, then. I'll also be buying when it's cheaper, so I'll have my original coins I'm still hodling, plus the coins I buy on sale. You'll just have the coins you bought on sale and a few more fiat IOUs. We'll see who fares better in the long run. I have no interest whatsoever in exchanging my crypto for cash or some pretend numbers on a bank's ATM. I may well ride out the storm by daytrading some alts, but fuck fiat. I would only ever exchange crypto directly for products/physical assets/services and even then only at the point where my purchasing power is huge. I'm going looooooong on Bitcoin and burning through my fiat before it becomes worthless.
I am not selling too. I made that mistake before. Now i know. Bitcoin is for long term hold. No matter what happens. And UASF is a perfect chance to double your coins. If we get a Bitmaincoin HF, it is even better. More coins to dump, now we can triple our shares.
A lot better than selling for FIAT.
Long term holder and lurker here. Been in BTC since 2011 and I have been following the scaling debate closely for the past year.
Been here since 2011 and created an account just to write that BIP148 isn't the way to go. Not buying this, nice try Jonald.
Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.
You must be a new bitcoiner.
Supporting larger blocks is simply adhering to Satoshi's original vision, Large Blocks is not "jihancoin" it is simply scaling Bitcoin the way that it was originally intended. Using that kind of vocabulary only reveals yourself as either being New, Brainwashed or having Low intelligence, or possibly all three.
Anyone worth their salt knows that Blockstream are the ones attempting to fundamentally alter Bitcoin, and nothing is more worthy of being called an altcoin than the Astroturf'd UASF crapcoin. Segwit in itself is also a radical change, much more radical than simply increasing the blocksize.
Get off r/bitcoin and go read a book or something.
Ive been around longer than you have buddy. Not gonna waste time with refuting your BS, you buy your large-block altcoin, I'll buy the core one. Good luck.
Large-block altcoin. Wow. Yep - You are completely brainwashed.
There is no helping you people.
I genuinely feel bad for these people, especially as someone who used to buy into BlockstreamCores BS. And now you have Core/Blockstreamers urging people to dump the non uasf chain after the split. A lot of people are going to lose a lot of money if they follow peoples advice like Lukejrs. Feed sad for these lost users blindly following Blockstream and believing people like OP.
Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.
You must be a new bitcoiner.
Supporting larger blocks is simply adhering to Satoshi's original vision, Large Blocks is not "jihancoin" it is simply scaling Bitcoin the way that it was originally intended. Using that kind of vocabulary only reveals yourself as either being New, Brainwashed or having Low intelligence, or possibly all three.
Anyone worth their salt knows that Blockstream are the ones attempting to fundamentally alter Bitcoin, and nothing is more worthy of being called an altcoin than the Astroturf'd UASF crapcoin. Segwit in itself is also a radical change, much more radical than simply increasing the blocksize.
Get off r/bitcoin and go read a book or something.
Satoshi's vision was not centralized control of Bitcoin under the thumb of a miner ripping off users, ignoring the entire development community and using secret mining techniques to destroy the competition. Get real.
Segwit has been implemented with no issue on many altcoins now, so your opposition to it is outdated and ludricrous. You're just trying to keep us all under Bitmain's thumb to keep paying high fees.
You are also being ignorant in pretending the UASF is connected to Core. They've been dragging their heels about it despite the chorus of calls from the community to support BIP148.
The *entire development community* or just some of them? A very significant part of the *development community* supports larger blocks.
Satoshi called for nodes that would eventually be hosted in datacenters. In his own words, "The eventual solution is to not care how big the blocksize gets." Crying about some mythical centralization is just a red herring to further your own personal agenda.
Then you pull the Bitmain card, which is ludicrous - Increasing the blocksize limit will result in lower fees.
As for Segwit, yeah I don't trust it because it was developed by BS/Core who have shown they are extremely Toxic and cannot be Trusted under any circumstances, Period. They reneged on the original HK agreement. They lie and they resort to censorship, which the OP - Theymos - has played a major part in. These tactics are not only dirty but it signals that there are some serious Ethical Failings over at Blockstream, and this is also a sign of weakness on their part.
If Segwit eventually gets activated, great. But it shouldn't be considered a blocksize increase on it's own (it's not) and it shouldn't be used as an excuse to Never increase the blocksize, which is clearly what Blockstream is gearing up to do.
Gavin called out Luke-jr for being a poisonous individual five and a half years ago in this thread here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.180
Guess who's one of the biggest supporters of UASF over at Core? Haha. Gavin was right.
Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.
You must be a new bitcoiner.
Supporting larger blocks is simply adhering to Satoshi's original vision, Large Blocks is not "jihancoin" it is simply scaling Bitcoin the way that it was originally intended. Using that kind of vocabulary only reveals yourself as either being New, Brainwashed or having Low intelligence, or possibly all three.
Anyone worth their salt knows that Blockstream are the ones attempting to fundamentally alter Bitcoin, and nothing is more worthy of being called an altcoin than the Astroturf'd UASF crapcoin. Segwit in itself is also a radical change, much more radical than simply increasing the blocksize.
Get off r/bitcoin and go read a book or something.
Ive been around longer than you have buddy. Not gonna waste time with refuting your BS, you buy your large-block altcoin, I'll buy the core one. Good luck.
Large-block altcoin. Wow. Yep - You are completely brainwashed.
There is no helping you people.
I've been telling the same a few pages back
The economic majority is not something ephemeral or abstract, it is a real force which basically comes down to what ordinary users are going to choose. But since they most likely ain't going to delve into gory details of the debates and clashes between miners and developers, they will just delegate their voice to someone or rather something which they trust by default, i.e. exchanges. Indeed, there are quite a few people who just hold their bitcoins in their personal wallets, but since their bitcoins don't move, they cannot be considered as economic agents at all, let alone the "economic majority" even if their numbers are high (which is not very likely anyway)
The economic majority is not something ephemeral or abstract, it is a real force which basically comes down to what ordinary users are going to choose. But since they most likely ain't going to delve into gory details of the debates and clashes between miners and developers, they will just delegate their voice to someone or rather something which they trust by default, i.e. exchanges. Indeed, there are quite a few people who just hold their bitcoins in their personal wallets, but since their bitcoins don't move, they cannot be considered as economic agents at all, let alone the "economic majority" even if their numbers are high (which is not very likely anyway)
This even makes retrospective sense when you look at how successful altcoins tend to be the ones you can easily trade and exchange. It's not a coincidence one of the first things a new coin or token seeks is listing on as many exchanges as possible. And with most local crypto exchanges still dealing *only* in Bitcoin, with possibly not enough information or incentive to care about anything else, there's really one logical outcome as to which they'll choose to remain with.
Long term holder and lurker here. Been in BTC since 2011 and I have been following the scaling debate closely for the past year.
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nice post
I do dislike UASF because of the precedent it presents as governance model in bitcoin. I find it is a bigger problem that transaction fees (and this is not a small one nor it is not urgent).
There is also one thing that a lot of people seem to overlook: Exchanges. Exchange have a lot of power in the bitcoin ecosystem, even if they remain silent most of the time. It is my opinion that exchanges will ultimately decide the fate of Bitcoin post August 1st if there is no compromise between miners and users. Users will end up following the longest chain and the economic majority which is currently heavily skewed toward exchanges
I've been telling the same a few pages back
The economic majority is not something ephemeral or abstract, it is a real force which basically comes down to what ordinary users are going to choose. But since they most likely ain't going to delve into gory details of the debates and clashes between miners and developers, they will just delegate their voice to someone or rather something which they trust by default, i.e. exchanges. Indeed, there are quite a few people who just hold their bitcoins in their personal wallets, but since their bitcoins don't move, they cannot be considered as economic agents at all, let alone the "economic majority" even if their numbers are high (which is not very likely anyway)
Bitcoin is not owned or dictated by a single entity.
Bitmain already effectively exercises veto control over Bitcoin. Not that it will happen, but if they forked like they are claiming they will do and their coin didn't die they'd have total control over it.
Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.
You must be a new bitcoiner.
Supporting larger blocks is simply adhering to Satoshi's original vision, Large Blocks is not "jihancoin" it is simply scaling Bitcoin the way that it was originally intended. Using that kind of vocabulary only reveals yourself as either being New, Brainwashed or having Low intelligence, or possibly all three.
Anyone worth their salt knows that Blockstream are the ones attempting to fundamentally alter Bitcoin, and nothing is more worthy of being called an altcoin than the Astroturf'd UASF crapcoin. Segwit in itself is also a radical change, much more radical than simply increasing the blocksize.
Get off r/bitcoin and go read a book or something.
Satoshi's vision was not centralized control of Bitcoin under the thumb of a miner ripping off users, ignoring the entire development community and using secret mining techniques to destroy the competition. Get real.
Segwit has been implemented with no issue on many altcoins now, so your opposition to it is outdated and ludricrous. You're just trying to keep us all under Bitmain's thumb to keep paying high fees.
You are also being ignorant in pretending the UASF is connected to Core. They've been dragging their heels about it despite the chorus of calls from the community to support BIP148.
Only centralized shitcoin will be Cores UASF who has a very minority support.
And how would a UASF chain mined by ACTUAL bitcoin users be centralized?
You're saying Jihan and the many big blockers aren't actual bitcoiners? Sounds like an emotional thing to say. And to answer your question, maybe it won't be centralized, but it definitely won't be bitcoin with minority hash power. Don't fall for the lies. We will soon have a superior bitcoin with large blocks and we may also have a Core/Segwit altcoin. Ignore false narratives that try and flip this.
Good luck with your altcoin goals, you fucking idiot.
Real nice buddy.
Even Theymos has always said that anything that changes consensus rules without overwhelming majority or any client that isn't Bitcoin Core is an altcoin. UASF fails both of these. He is a hypocrite and you will be the one on an altcoin as UASF support is seemingly nonexistent outside of censored echochambers.
Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.
o rly
https://vote.bitcoin.com/
i suppose this is all just roger voting right?
yes (literally)
Long term holder and lurker here. Been in BTC since 2011 and I have been following the scaling debate closely for the past year.
All I can say is that the misinformation and FUD is really strong on both sides of the debate.
When I started reading about the scaling debate I naturally sided with Core because of their legacy, and the community sentiment (r/bitcoin specifically) overwhelmingly favored Core.
However upon doing my due diligence and spending a few months reading the lf core mailing list, github discussions and dissenting opinions, I came to the conclusion that it is impossible for someone who doesn't follow these discussions on a daily basis to discern the truth from the FUD. And that applies to both sides of the debate.
I also realized that some of the Core devs weren't as trustworthy as I thought they were, and that some of them became so entrenched in their position that they failed to see the bigger picture and refused to even consider a compromise.
The discussions around Segwit2x especially have been an eye-opener for me, as well as luke-jr's push for BIP148. He can be so disingenuous in his comments, such as saying that no matter what happens BIP148 will be the legacy chain (the real "bitcoin"), that it made me realize how big of an ego he has. Either that or he has a specific agenda.
Bitcoin is not owned or dictated by a single entity. Despite Core's long-standing reputation, bitcoin is a decentralized network and as such need majority consensus to successfully implement a protocol change. This is why i also oppose any unilateral action from the miners' side.
There is also one thing that a lot of people seem to overlook: Exchanges. Exchange have a lot of power in the bitcoin ecosystem, even if they remain silent most of the time. It is my opinion that exchanges will ultimately decide the fate of Bitcoin post August 1st if there is no compromise between miners and users. Users will end up following the longest chain and the economic majority which is currently heavily skewed toward exchanges.
That is not to say I favor bitmain over core. I try to remain neutral and understand both sides, with only one goal in mind which is the long-term success of bitcoin. But what I have seen lately is one side trying to compromise while the other side is doing everything they can to sabotage that effort. I will let you guess who's who.
The best thing that could happen to bitcoin IMO is an abundance of client implementations and less centralized mining. If Core wasn't the main bitcoin client (mostly due to first-mover advantage), I think we would have a very different picture of the scaling debate and much more fruitful discussions that wouldn't resolve around the same argument for years.
All I can say is that the misinformation and FUD is really strong on both sides of the debate.
When I started reading about the scaling debate I naturally sided with Core because of their legacy, and the community sentiment (r/bitcoin specifically) overwhelmingly favored Core.
However upon doing my due diligence and spending a few months reading the lf core mailing list, github discussions and dissenting opinions, I came to the conclusion that it is impossible for someone who doesn't follow these discussions on a daily basis to discern the truth from the FUD. And that applies to both sides of the debate.
I also realized that some of the Core devs weren't as trustworthy as I thought they were, and that some of them became so entrenched in their position that they failed to see the bigger picture and refused to even consider a compromise.
The discussions around Segwit2x especially have been an eye-opener for me, as well as luke-jr's push for BIP148. He can be so disingenuous in his comments, such as saying that no matter what happens BIP148 will be the legacy chain (the real "bitcoin"), that it made me realize how big of an ego he has. Either that or he has a specific agenda.
Bitcoin is not owned or dictated by a single entity. Despite Core's long-standing reputation, bitcoin is a decentralized network and as such need majority consensus to successfully implement a protocol change. This is why i also oppose any unilateral action from the miners' side.
There is also one thing that a lot of people seem to overlook: Exchanges. Exchange have a lot of power in the bitcoin ecosystem, even if they remain silent most of the time. It is my opinion that exchanges will ultimately decide the fate of Bitcoin post August 1st if there is no compromise between miners and users. Users will end up following the longest chain and the economic majority which is currently heavily skewed toward exchanges.
That is not to say I favor bitmain over core. I try to remain neutral and understand both sides, with only one goal in mind which is the long-term success of bitcoin. But what I have seen lately is one side trying to compromise while the other side is doing everything they can to sabotage that effort. I will let you guess who's who.
The best thing that could happen to bitcoin IMO is an abundance of client implementations and less centralized mining. If Core wasn't the main bitcoin client (mostly due to first-mover advantage), I think we would have a very different picture of the scaling debate and much more fruitful discussions that wouldn't resolve around the same argument for years.
I can see why it might seem like a good idea, but there if a potential to lose out doing it that way. Hodling in the event of a split means you get coins on both chains. Selling before the split means you have to buy back after the split and choose very carefully which chain you think has the best chance of survival. And if you take too long deciding, the fiat price may well recover to a level above the point that you panic sold.
It is obvious that you are not a (very experienced) trader (or not a trader at all)
Selling bitcoins before the split would be a wise decision any way you look at it. It is almost a certain that price will crash after the split (even if temporarily) or even before it (if it is really going to happen, due to insiders cashing out), so the risk is not worth it. If you don't know which camp to stick to, you can buy back both coins at cheaper price, and thus you would be better off overall than if you decided just to hold. I guess I won't have to explain where exactly your logic fails. It should be straightforward
Cool story, please sell your entire stash now, then. I'll also be buying when it's cheaper, so I'll have my original coins I'm still hodling, plus the coins I buy on sale. You'll just have the coins you bought on sale and a few more fiat IOUs. We'll see who fares better in the long run. I have no interest whatsoever in exchanging my crypto for cash or some pretend numbers on a bank's ATM. I may well ride out the storm by daytrading some alts, but fuck fiat. I would only ever exchange crypto directly for products/physical assets/services and even then only at the point where my purchasing power is huge. I'm going looooooong on Bitcoin and burning through my fiat before it becomes worthless.
//EDIT: Also
This is a poorly disguised, too obvious and easily seen through attempt to postpone the inevitable end of mining as we know it today (i.e. highly monopolized and heavily abused). The only possible explanation if Wu and Co are actually going to get done with Bitcoin is Jihan going totally nuts, which is unlikely. SegWit and further updates will surely eat away at his profit margins but they are pretty wide anyway to deliberately go for something as suicidal as creating a Wucoin. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Jihan denounced his actions later as intentional trolling (to save face)
And this is what I've been telling many times myself, namely, that miners (Jihan Wu's puppets, specifically) will leave no stone unturned to escalate things further (to keep things where they are now). But I don't think that they are really going to stake everything when the time comes to decide and actually follow their decision. This will just turn out the same bluff as it has always been the case before with miners and the stuff they have been proposing
For someone who is always there at the drop of a hat to point out everything that's apparently wrong with mining in their "expert" opinion, I have to ask, have you actually understood how mining fundamentally works yet? Because there's still a pretty big question hanging over that if I'm brutally honest.
Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.
You must be a new bitcoiner.
Supporting larger blocks is simply adhering to Satoshi's original vision, Large Blocks is not "jihancoin" it is simply scaling Bitcoin the way that it was originally intended. Using that kind of vocabulary only reveals yourself as either being New, Brainwashed or having Low intelligence, or possibly all three.
Anyone worth their salt knows that Blockstream are the ones attempting to fundamentally alter Bitcoin, and nothing is more worthy of being called an altcoin than the Astroturf'd UASF crapcoin. Segwit in itself is also a radical change, much more radical than simply increasing the blocksize.
Get off r/bitcoin and go read a book or something.
Ive been around longer than you have buddy. Not gonna waste time with refuting your BS, you buy your large-block altcoin, I'll buy the core one. Good luck.
Bitmain is basically saying do as I say or I leave, and a large part of the community is like, leave already and leave bitcoin alone, if we get segwit activated and get rid of Bitmain at the same time then that would be great.
UASF supporters are basically saying do as we say, and a large part of the community is like, leave already and leave bitcoin alone, if we get big blocks and get rid of Blockstream/Core at the same time then that would be great.
Oh geez, what a bad idea for voting. Like I really have nothing better to do than scrounge around for all my public keys, or transfer funds off exchanges to offline wallets just so I can cast a vote. No wonder the results are whacked.
For an important, formal vote it's a nice idea. For a simple gauge of sentiment it's worthless as it is inconvenient and thus only counts those who are most committed and active on the site in question - in this case, Ver's own site.
For an important, formal vote it's a nice idea. For a simple gauge of sentiment it's worthless as it is inconvenient and thus only counts those who are most committed and active on the site in question - in this case, Ver's own site.
Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.
You must be a new bitcoiner.
Supporting larger blocks is simply adhering to Satoshi's original vision, Large Blocks is not "jihancoin" it is simply scaling Bitcoin the way that it was originally intended. Using that kind of vocabulary only reveals yourself as either being New, Brainwashed or having Low intelligence, or possibly all three.
Anyone worth their salt knows that Blockstream are the ones attempting to fundamentally alter Bitcoin, and nothing is more worthy of being called an altcoin than the Astroturf'd UASF crapcoin. Segwit in itself is also a radical change, much more radical than simply increasing the blocksize.
Get off r/bitcoin and go read a book or something.
Another yes from me.
Pretty much. It's Bitcoin.com, the Ver cult site.
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