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Topic: Bitmain's Released Antminer S9, World's First 16nm Miner Ready to Order - page 54. (Read 531067 times)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1756
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
I don't think the profitability counter graph is accounting for HODL. I think if you are counting on cashing out for a revenue stream, then yes, it's reflective, and that's what a lot of the bigger miners are doing, because they have such large investment. Or a little guy with a few machines trying to make a little extra. I'm getting s9's to mine and hold. Buying 10k btc is a one way dead end street. Spend 10k on 2-3 s9's, put them in a spare room, pay the electric from my regular job, and in a couple years, let's see what btc price is. Years later when I calculate my profit I'll ignore my electric costs to make my profit look better to me  Shocked

I don't think you have understood what this graph shows, because it does account for your HODL strategy, let me explain.

First here's the numbers again for a single S9, starting up January 2018 (I've added a few more columns to make it clearer):


It's all about the total network hashrate (and corresponding difficulty off course but they are dependent on eachother so I could have used either here, I chose hashrate).

The spreadsheet forecasts what the total network hash rate will do in 3 different scenarios:
- follow current trend (middle line)
- continue to grow faster and faster as it has always done in the past (top line, pessimistic outlook miners)
- stop growing and decrease again over the course of the year (bottom line, optimistic outlook for miners)

Based on this it predicts for the 3 different scenarios how much Bitcoin an S9 will make every month of 2018.
Up to this point this is all very solid data, you can pick your favorite scenario or anywhere in between, hashrate is not likely to go outside of these outer lines. You can get a really good idea of how much BTC your S9 will make every month over the coming year.

Now from this point onwards it becomes speculative as it depends on BTC/USD exchange rate, but that does not matter if you're trying to compare with a HODL scenario. I'll explain that later.
First I'll explain the rest of the spreadsheet:

The next columns show how much your miner will make you in USD based on today's echange rate, how much profit you get from that substracting power cost, and what your subsequent position is each month against your initial investment of your S9 (I've estimated $3000 to get an S9 incl. PSU into the country with shipping, tax etc.)

If you now look at the 3 position columns, only in the optimistic scenario (where hashrate stops increasing and eventually decreases again over the year) do you actually pay back your miner and end up in the green. Even following today's trend does not pay back your miner over the course of the year and by the end of the year you're only making $14/month so you never will either (I could add a few months to the spreadsheet to confirm this).

So to come back to the HODL comparison,
If yo put that $3000 into BTC today at $11500/BTC exchange rate, regardless of whether it goes up or down you will always remain in front compared to the current trend and pessimistic scenarios because the value of the initial investment fluctuates with the exchange rate, if you buy an S9 it doesn't (in fact it decreases because it depreciates but lets ignore that for now).

Now if you're claiming that you're not paying back your S9 investment with the BTC you earn and you're not paying the power cost with the BTC you earn but from another source of income, well, then in the other case where you just invest $3000 in BTC you should also convert that money from your other source of income to BTC every month and add that to the initial investment, so that investment grows equally from that other source of income. Otherwise you're not comparing apples with apples.

Again, only in the optimistic scenario where hashrate actually stops growing, is it economically sensible to invest in an S9 now at these prices and current hashrate growth, unless you have access to really cheap power.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong somewhere in my predictions/assumptions, but for now I can't see any way that would be the case.
Anyway, here's the adjusted spreadsheet again for those interested in playing with the numbers:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1m3xac87ptylj0/hash%20forecast.xlsx?dl=0

Its been like this many times in the past.  People use all kinds of weird logic and math to come up with awesome profit scenario's to justify mining.  Mining rigs fly off the proverbial shelf with manufacture's getting interest free loans from investomers!  Most newbs don't understand a basic fact about Bitcoin POW mining.  Mining was designed as a "near" zero sum game and the network is constantly making its way towards that goal.

Another often over looked perspective is that mining can be looked at as a bet AGAINST diff increase.  Based on available data this doesn't like a good bet to me right now!  I think a lot of people will find this out over the coming months!
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I am so sad right now; just turned on 2 S9's from December batch, first one easily gets 14th/s, while the second one cannot get an IP from my router, so currently useless SadSadSad

This helped me https://enforum.bitmain.com/bbs/topics/3957

Hey, did you have a connection issue with the S9? Which of the 3 methods as per the article did you use?
I did, I couldn't find the S9 on the network. The first method worked for me, if that doesn't work I would do an ARP scan. If THAT doesn't work I would assume it's a hardware issue, so try another ethernet cable and a different port on the switch. If that doesn't help then I have no idea sadly, could be the controller board on the miner.
full member
Activity: 294
Merit: 101
I am so sad right now; just turned on 2 S9's from December batch, first one easily gets 14th/s, while the second one cannot get an IP from my router, so currently useless SadSadSad

This helped me https://enforum.bitmain.com/bbs/topics/3957

Hey, did you have a connection issue with the S9? Which of the 3 methods as per the article did you use?
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
I don't think the profitability counter graph is accounting for HODL. I think if you are counting on cashing out for a revenue stream, then yes, it's reflective, and that's what a lot of the bigger miners are doing, because they have such large investment. Or a little guy with a few machines trying to make a little extra. I'm getting s9's to mine and hold. Buying 10k btc is a one way dead end street. Spend 10k on 2-3 s9's, put them in a spare room, pay the electric from my regular job, and in a couple years, let's see what btc price is. Years later when I calculate my profit I'll ignore my electric costs to make my profit look better to me  Shocked

I don't think you have understood what this graph shows, because it does account for your HODL strategy, let me explain.

First here's the numbers again for a single S9, starting up January 2018 (I've added a few more columns to make it clearer):


It's all about the total network hashrate (and corresponding difficulty off course but they are dependent on eachother so I could have used either here, I chose hashrate).

The spreadsheet forecasts what the total network hash rate will do in 3 different scenarios:
- follow current trend (middle line)
- continue to grow faster and faster as it has always done in the past (top line, pessimistic outlook miners)
- stop growing and decrease again over the course of the year (bottom line, optimistic outlook for miners)

Based on this it predicts for the 3 different scenarios how much Bitcoin an S9 will make every month of 2018.
Up to this point this is all very solid data, you can pick your favorite scenario or anywhere in between, hashrate is not likely to go outside of these outer lines. You can get a really good idea of how much BTC your S9 will make every month over the coming year.

Now from this point onwards it becomes speculative as it depends on BTC/USD exchange rate, but that does not matter if you're trying to compare with a HODL scenario. I'll explain that later.
First I'll explain the rest of the spreadsheet:

The next columns show how much your miner will make you in USD based on today's echange rate, how much profit you get from that substracting power cost, and what your subsequent position is each month against your initial investment of your S9 (I've estimated $3000 to get an S9 incl. PSU into the country with shipping, tax etc.)

If you now look at the 3 position columns, only in the optimistic scenario (where hashrate stops increasing and eventually decreases again over the year) do you actually pay back your miner and end up in the green. Even following today's trend does not pay back your miner over the course of the year and by the end of the year you're only making $14/month so you never will either (I could add a few months to the spreadsheet to confirm this).

So to come back to the HODL comparison,
If yo put that $3000 into BTC today at $11500/BTC exchange rate, regardless of whether it goes up or down you will always remain in front compared to the current trend and pessimistic scenarios because the value of the initial investment fluctuates with the exchange rate, if you buy an S9 it doesn't (in fact it decreases because it depreciates but lets ignore that for now).

Now if you're claiming that you're not paying back your S9 investment with the BTC you earn and you're not paying the power cost with the BTC you earn but from another source of income, well, then in the other case where you just invest $3000 in BTC you should also convert that money from your other source of income to BTC every month and add that to the initial investment, so that investment grows equally from that other source of income. Otherwise you're not comparing apples with apples.

Again, only in the optimistic scenario where hashrate actually stops growing, is it economically sensible to invest in an S9 now at these prices and current hashrate growth, unless you have access to really cheap power.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong somewhere in my predictions/assumptions, but for now I can't see any way that would be the case.
Anyway, here's the adjusted spreadsheet again for those interested in playing with the numbers:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1m3xac87ptylj0/hash%20forecast.xlsx?dl=0
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I am so sad right now; just turned on 2 S9's from December batch, first one easily gets 14th/s, while the second one cannot get an IP from my router, so currently useless SadSadSad

This helped me https://enforum.bitmain.com/bbs/topics/3957
full member
Activity: 294
Merit: 101
I am so sad right now; just turned on 2 S9's from December batch, first one easily gets 14th/s, while the second one cannot get an IP from my router, so currently useless SadSadSad
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1714
Electrical engineer. Mining since 2014.
newbie
Activity: 37
Merit: 0
BCH/BTC S9 farmer here. Just wondering if the S9 can be used to (solo/pool) mine other coins (ShitCoins etc) where difficulty is super low and you can actually be awarded (worthless now but maybe worth something later) blocks? Or the S9 is just useable for  BTC/BCH? Thanks

Should be able to mine any SHA256 coin. You can find an old list here: https://steemit.com/sha256/@bitcoinnational/sha-256-coins

Thanks, in theory yes, but how do you direct an S9 to do that? Anyone done that before?
Just point the miner to a pool that mines SHA256, just like how you would do it with BTC.

Ok thanks. How about solo mining - are they usually an option ok these pools like with Antminer?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
BCH/BTC S9 farmer here. Just wondering if the S9 can be used to (solo/pool) mine other coins (ShitCoins etc) where difficulty is super low and you can actually be awarded (worthless now but maybe worth something later) blocks? Or the S9 is just useable for  BTC/BCH? Thanks

Should be able to mine any SHA256 coin. You can find an old list here: https://steemit.com/sha256/@bitcoinnational/sha-256-coins

Thanks, in theory yes, but how do you direct an S9 to do that? Anyone done that before?
Just point the miner to a pool that mines SHA256, just like how you would do it with BTC.
newbie
Activity: 37
Merit: 0
BCH/BTC S9 farmer here. Just wondering if the S9 can be used to (solo/pool) mine other coins (ShitCoins etc) where difficulty is super low and you can actually be awarded (worthless now but maybe worth something later) blocks? Or the S9 is just useable for  BTC/BCH? Thanks

Should be able to mine any SHA256 coin. You can find an old list here: https://steemit.com/sha256/@bitcoinnational/sha-256-coins

Thanks, in theory yes, but how do you direct an S9 to do that? Anyone done that before?
sr. member
Activity: 519
Merit: 253
BCH/BTC S9 farmer here. Just wondering if the S9 can be used to (solo/pool) mine other coins (ShitCoins etc) where difficulty is super low and you can actually be awarded (worthless now but maybe worth something later) blocks? Or the S9 is just useable for  BTC/BCH? Thanks

Should be able to mine any SHA256 coin. You can find an old list here: https://steemit.com/sha256/@bitcoinnational/sha-256-coins
sr. member
Activity: 519
Merit: 253
Guys,

Do you think that with the price collapse now, Bitcoin (or Bitcoin Cash) mining difficulty will be corrected downwards too? I guess some people will switch their miners off, or I am wrong?

Personally I do not think you will see much of an adjustment down on difficulty. Since Jan 2014 there have only been 15 down adjustments and the biggest was a little over 6%. With lower prices you might see some of the older equipment dropping off but there is a lot of new equipment still coming online. The most likely scenario to lower difficulty is if people switch to BCH or some other coin I think.

Just my $0.02 worth.
newbie
Activity: 37
Merit: 0
BCH/BTC S9 farmer here. Just wondering if the S9 can be used to (solo/pool) mine other coins (ShitCoins etc) where difficulty is super low and you can actually be awarded (worthless now but maybe worth something later) blocks? Or the S9 is just useable for  BTC/BCH? Thanks
member
Activity: 125
Merit: 10
Don’t do a screen name after 4 glasses of Chianti
FYI, our Dec 20-30 Jan 11-20 order finally shipped.

Same here. Already got the call from ups for my SS info. Expected to be stateside Friday
sr. member
Activity: 384
Merit: 256
FYI, our Dec 20-30 Jan 11-20 order finally shipped.
full member
Activity: 462
Merit: 118
Guys,

Do you think that with the price collapse now, Bitcoin (or Bitcoin Cash) mining difficulty will be corrected downwards too? I guess some people will switch their miners off, or I am wrong?

Of course the difficulty will correct following the price. Always has, likely always will. That's how bigger miners remain profitable.

Even if the profitability drops, keep mining anyway. It means you're getting coins on the cheap for when the price eventually - whether it be a month, or a year - bounces back to new all time highs.

The last time we saw a big crash like this - especially if it keeps dropping over the next few weeks - was 2013. It took years for the price to bounce back to what it is today, but when everyone was crying "bitcoin is dead" when it was $275, we kept mining and kept holding our coins, because we knew that one day the price would bounce back to new all time highs. This game takes balls of steel to play.

Actually, why would difficulty drop? Electricity cost difference issue between some home miners and some bitcoin miners. Is it high rental cost? Or having to be locked in a rental contract for 2 years? Having to pay rent when u cant run your machines is sad. But if it drops historically, and it drops later, then great. I guess for some people, it is not worth running it for tiny profit.
member
Activity: 658
Merit: 21
4 s9's 2 821's
Guys,

Do you think that with the price collapse now, Bitcoin (or Bitcoin Cash) mining difficulty will be corrected downwards too? I guess some people will switch their miners off, or I am wrong?

Of course the difficulty will correct following the price. Always has, likely always will. That's how bigger miners remain profitable.

Even if the profitability drops, keep mining anyway. It means you're getting coins on the cheap for when the price eventually - whether it be a month, or a year - bounces back to new all time highs.

The last time we saw a big crash like this - especially if it keeps dropping over the next few weeks - was 2013. It took years for the price to bounce back to what it is today, but when everyone was crying "bitcoin is dead" when it was $275, we kept mining and kept holding our coins, because we knew that one day the price would bounce back to new all time highs. This game takes balls of steel to play.

what kenji said.   You're mining for tomorrow.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 255
Guys,

Do you think that with the price collapse now, Bitcoin (or Bitcoin Cash) mining difficulty will be corrected downwards too? I guess some people will switch their miners off, or I am wrong?

Of course the difficulty will correct following the price. Always has, likely always will. That's how bigger miners remain profitable.

Even if the profitability drops, keep mining anyway. It means you're getting coins on the cheap for when the price eventually - whether it be a month, or a year - bounces back to new all time highs.

The last time we saw a big crash like this - especially if it keeps dropping over the next few weeks - was 2013. It took years for the price to bounce back to what it is today, but when everyone was crying "bitcoin is dead" when it was $275, we kept mining and kept holding our coins, because we knew that one day the price would bounce back to new all time highs. This game takes balls of steel to play.
member
Activity: 658
Merit: 21
4 s9's 2 821's
Guys,

Do you think that with the price collapse now, Bitcoin (or Bitcoin Cash) mining difficulty will be corrected downwards too? I guess some people will switch their miners off, or I am wrong?

You may see more for sale...part of the reason Bitmain is dumping s9's on the market.
jr. member
Activity: 99
Merit: 4
I don't think the profitability counter graph is accounting for HODL. I think if you are counting on cashing out for a revenue stream, then yes, it's reflective, and that's what a lot of the bigger miners are doing, because they have such large investment. Or a little guy with a few machines trying to make a little extra. I'm getting s9's to mine and hold. Buying 10k btc is a one way dead end street. Spend 10k on 2-3 s9's, put them in a spare room, pay the electric from my regular job, and in a couple years, let's see what btc price is. Years later when I calculate my profit I'll ignore my electric costs to make my profit look better to me  Shocked

Doing similar, but I am cashing out 75% and hodl 25% at 1st until b/e and paying down some debt, then I will increase hodl percentage

bingo! this is what small time mining is all about.
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