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Topic: Bitmark - page 80. (Read 622228 times)

legendary
Activity: 1588
Merit: 1000
October 25, 2014, 05:32:04 PM

"However, I will argue that monetizing more of what’s valuable from ordinary people,
who turn out to be the uncompensated sources of the data that make networks valuable in the first place, will lead to a better future."

You guys are definitely on to something...

But ordinary people are hardly "uncompensated"...
Email might have cost $100/year in the 90s and now it's free...
As is every social networking service from Facebook to Twitter to YouTube.

The middle class is sabotaging itself...
Because people spend MASSIVE amounts of their time sending stupid posts, messages and pics...
(I know girls with 500 pics of themselves on FB)...
And have cellphones glued to their head...
As opposed to doing something productive with their lives like their parents did.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
October 25, 2014, 03:58:08 PM
Deiu(https://my-profile.eu/people/deiu/card#me) in the slack group recommended a book that seems to be incredibly relevant to what we're trying to do here. It's called Who Owns the Future? by Jaron Lanier

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Owns-Future-Jaron-Lanier/dp/1451654960

You can check the preface for free at Amazon so I thought I'd just post part of it here to see if it sounds as interesting to other people as it did to me when I read it:

Quote from: Who Owns the Future? by Jaron Lanier
...

If you got it for free, there has been a no-way transaction, and any value traded will be off the books, recorded not in any ledger but rather in the informal value systems of reputation, karma, or other wispy forms of barter. That doesn’t mean nothing has happened. Maybe you’ll get some positive strokes over a social network because of what you say about the book. That sort of activity might benefit us both. But it’s a kind of benefit that is unreliable and perishable.

The clamor for online attention only turns into money for a token minority of ordinary people, but there is another new, tiny class of people who always benefit. Those who keep the new ledgers, the giant computing services that model you, spy on you, and predict your actions, turn your life activities into the greatest fortunes in history. Those are concrete fortunes made of money.

This book promotes a third alternative, which is that digital networking ought to promote a two-way transaction, in which you benefit, concretely, with real money, as I do. I want digital networking to cause more value from people to be on the books, rather than less. When we make our world more efficient through the use of digital networks, that should make our economy grow, not shrink.

Here’s a current example of the challenge we face. At the height of its power, the photography company Kodak employed more than 140,000 people and was worth $28 billion. They even invented the first digital camera. But today Kodak is bankrupt, and the new face of digital photography has become Instagram. When Instagram was sold to Facebook for a billion dollars in 2012, it employed only thirteen people.

Where did all those jobs disappear to? And what happened to the wealth that those middle-class jobs created? This book is built to answer questions like these, which will only become more common as digital networking hollows out every industry, from media to medicine to manufacturing.

Instagram isn’t worth a billion dollars just because those thirteen employees are extraordinary. Instead, its value comes from the millions of users who contribute to the network without being paid for it. Networks need a great number of people to participate in them to generate significant value. But when they have them, only a small number of people get paid. That has the net effect of centralizing wealth and limiting overall economic growth.

Instead of enlarging our overall economy by creating more value that is on the books, the rise of digital networking is enriching a relative few while moving the value created by the many off the books.

By “digital networking” I mean not only the Internet and the Web, but also other networks operated by outfits like financial institutions and intelligence agencies. In all these cases, we see the phenomenon of power and money becoming concentrated around the people who operate the most central computers in a network, undervaluing everyone else. That is the pattern we have come to expect, but it is not the only way things can go.

The alternative introduced in this book is not a utopian idea; it won’t be hard to foresee its annoyances and messiness. However, I will argue that monetizing more of what’s valuable from ordinary people, who turn out to be the uncompensated sources of the data that make networks valuable in the first place, will lead to a better future.

That will make power and clout more honestly distributed, and might even lead to a persistent middle class in an information economy, which would otherwise be an impossible goal.

mark Deiu, Jaron Lanier 100
full member
Activity: 486
Merit: 104
October 25, 2014, 12:22:07 PM
Implementing the idea of a variable block reward would require more thought and attention to detail.  Timekeeping might have to be done more carefully than is done on the bitcoin network, perhaps by using or incorporating the long established NTP (Network Time Protocol)

It would also require a hard fork to implement on Bitmark, but since it's early days it should not prove too disruptive.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
October 25, 2014, 10:39:39 AM
I'm just wondering if people realise how rare BTM is?  If the coin had stayed strictly to the 2 minute schedule since inception, there would be around 1.5 million coins in circulation, however in reality only a little over 900,000 have been minted.  Unless the hashrate explodes to LTC levels, it is highly unlikely that the blockchain will ever catch up to the planned release schedule.   

Yes. One bitcoin buys about 2 days worth of bitmark minting. 

In US dollar terms, the bitcoin blockchain is minting about 50,000 USD worth every 24 hours. The bitmark block chain is minting about 175 USD worth every 24 hours

One idea to meet the planned BTM coin release schedule and also incentivise more hash power to join the network would be that the block reward be variable. Examples: if an hour has gone by when the next block is found, that block could get 600 BTM instead of 20. If two real-time hours separate blocks, then that last block could be rewarded 1,200 BTM. If it takes 10 minutes to find the next block (instead of the target 2) then that block would be awarded 100 BTM, etc.

The idea is that the 20 BTM reward per block would accrue 'virtually' every 2 minutes, whether a block was found or not, and the sum of all the 'virtually accrued block rewards' would be 'physically' awarded on the next block actually found to the node who found it, whenever that is. 



Interesting idea wrt to variable block rewards. First thing I can think of is that a large miner might exploit it somehow by holding blocks. Of course someone else can solve them in the meantime and take the reward, so I don't know if that would be an issue or not. I know some mining algos such as KGW have been exploited so I'm cautious about any new ideas in the mining area. But it's a very interesting subject and maybe we can try out some of these ideas on a Pfennig clone at some point.
legendary
Activity: 2424
Merit: 1148
October 25, 2014, 08:15:21 AM
There are some Bitmark pokerchips now available at http://cryptochips.net Smiley

https://twitter.com/Yakpimp/status/525709295909089280



I like these chips! I have contacted them for UK delivery.



They do look quite nice. Ceramic polymer plus the ink injection should mean that they're good quality similar to real casino chips and not the plastic ones that are common.

Placed an order for 1 of these, looking forward to receiving it.
legendary
Activity: 2424
Merit: 1148
October 25, 2014, 08:14:26 AM
With CCH they'll probably get you set up on zero confirms if you ask them(if they're not doing so already).

We definitely will, we have trust in BTM and its community.
full member
Activity: 486
Merit: 104
October 25, 2014, 07:58:22 AM
Are there any SVG vector images of the bitmark logo and "bitmark accepted here" type graphics ? I've only found pixel-based formats.
full member
Activity: 486
Merit: 104
October 25, 2014, 06:38:03 AM
I'm just wondering if people realise how rare BTM is?  If the coin had stayed strictly to the 2 minute schedule since inception, there would be around 1.5 million coins in circulation, however in reality only a little over 900,000 have been minted.  Unless the hashrate explodes to LTC levels, it is highly unlikely that the blockchain will ever catch up to the planned release schedule.  

Yes. One bitcoin buys about 2 days worth of bitmark minting.  

In US dollar terms, the bitcoin blockchain is minting about 50,000 USD worth every 24 hours. The bitmark block chain is minting about 175 USD worth every 24 hours

One idea to meet the planned BTM coin release schedule and also incentivise more hash power to join the network would be that the block reward be variable. Examples: if an hour has gone by when the next block is found, that block could get 600 BTM instead of 20. If two real-time hours separate blocks, then that last block could be rewarded 1,200 BTM. If it takes 10 minutes to find the next block (instead of the target 2) then that block would be awarded 100 BTM, etc.

The idea is that the 20 BTM reward per block would accrue 'virtually' every 2 minutes, whether a block was found or not, and the sum of all the 'virtually accrued block rewards' would be 'physically' awarded on the next block actually found to the node who found it, whenever that is.  

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
October 25, 2014, 06:14:37 AM
Hypothetically speaking, let's say there was such demand that blocks were being found every 30 seconds (4x the target rate) so that 720 blocks were generated by the time 6 hours went by. Would the difficulty then re-adjust after those 6 hours and throttle the production down to a block every two minutes ?

Yeah, the algorithm works quite well on that end of the spectrum. We will never see an extended over production of BTM. It's when the profitability compared to other scrypt mining oportunities is seen as "less profitable" that it slows down. And I use the term "less profitable" very loosely, as BTM doesn't really conform to the standard profit calculations with the 720 block maturity.

I'm just wondering if people realise how rare BTM is?  If the coin had stayed strictly to the 2 minute schedule since inception, there would be around 1.5 million coins in circulation, however in reality only a little over 900,000 have been minted.  Unless the hashrate explodes to LTC levels, it is highly unlikely that the blockchain will ever catch up to the planned release schedule.  

Yeah, I don't think too many people have much of idea of what's going on in general. Part of that is my fault as I don't really go around talking too much about everything that goes on in slack(it's all public though, anyone is more than welcome to join and see what's going on for themselves). Basically there's a lot of development going now from four devs working hard on their individual marking projects and recently two major third party projects being explored right now that look very promising.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
October 25, 2014, 04:56:50 AM
If you look here: http://bitmark.co/statistics/health  you will see that that has already happened several times but unfortunately the hashrate drops off after the diff change, hence the long rounds.  I think the nethash hit 200gb/s during the last low diff round.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say there was such demand that blocks were being found every 30 seconds (4x the target rate) so that 720 blocks were generated by the time 6 hours went by. Would the difficulty then re-adjust after those 6 hours and throttle the production down to a block every two minutes ?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
October 25, 2014, 04:51:46 AM
I'm just wondering if people realise how rare BTM is?  If the coin had stayed strictly to the 2 minute schedule since inception, there would be around 1.5 million coins in circulation, however in reality only a little over 900,000 have been minted.  Unless the hashrate explodes to LTC levels, it is highly unlikely that the blockchain will ever catch up to the planned release schedule.   
full member
Activity: 486
Merit: 104
October 25, 2014, 04:44:37 AM
Hypothetically speaking, let's say there was such demand that blocks were being found every 30 seconds (4x the target rate) so that 720 blocks were generated by the time 6 hours went by. Would the difficulty then re-adjust after those 6 hours and throttle the production down to a block every two minutes ?
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
October 25, 2014, 02:24:30 AM
Blocks are being found at a rate of 1 or 2 per hour, when the target rate should be 30 blocks per hour. Clearly, this is because the network hash rate is far below what the current difficulty is demanding for a block to be found every 2 minutes.

 Bitmark's block maturity and the difficulty retarget are set the same, at 720 blocks.  Would it make sense to keep the block maturity at 720 blocks, but shorten the difficulty retarget so that the block production rate is more responsive to the real network hash rate ?

 It makes sense to me that the difficulty should more closely follow the actual network hash rate in order to produce blocks at the desired 2 minute rate.



Well, there's little to no usage of Bitmark yet, while all of the projects that will enable adoption are being created now, there is not much demand yet for BTM. Only non-speculative demand now is from people buying BTM to purchase hosting on http://cryptocloudhosting.org and Poloniex's and our own local marking integrations. With CCH they'll probably get you set up on zero confirms if you ask them(if they're not doing so already). With Poloniex, since it's entirely off chain the slow network doesn't affect peoples ability to mark.

If we change the difficulty algorithm to increase supply when there's very little market demand then there will just be more downward pressure until some of the new marking platforms are released and people have a good way to purchase marks. It's a bit inconvenient for now, but supply following demand is not such a bad thing in the long run. When usage increases supply will follow with more miners mining on the network.
full member
Activity: 486
Merit: 104
October 24, 2014, 05:07:46 PM
Blocks are being found at a rate of 1 or 2 per hour, when the target rate should be 30 blocks per hour. Clearly, this is because the network hash rate is far below what the current difficulty is demanding for a block to be found every 2 minutes.

 Bitmark's block maturity and the difficulty retarget are set the same, at 720 blocks.  Would it make sense to keep the block maturity at 720 blocks, but shorten the difficulty retarget so that the block production rate is more responsive to the real network hash rate ?

 It makes sense to me that the difficulty should more closely follow the actual network hash rate in order to produce blocks at the desired 2 minute rate.

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
October 24, 2014, 02:45:37 PM
There are some Bitmark pokerchips now available at http://cryptochips.net Smiley

https://twitter.com/Yakpimp/status/525709295909089280



I like these chips! I have contacted them for UK delivery.



They do look quite nice. Ceramic polymer plus the ink injection should mean that they're good quality similar to real casino chips and not the plastic ones that are common.
legendary
Activity: 2424
Merit: 1148
October 24, 2014, 02:07:08 PM
There are some Bitmark pokerchips now available at http://cryptochips.net Smiley

https://twitter.com/Yakpimp/status/525709295909089280



I like these chips! I have contacted them for UK delivery.

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
October 24, 2014, 01:35:43 PM
There are some Bitmark pokerchips now available at http://cryptochips.net Smiley

https://twitter.com/Yakpimp/status/525709295909089280

sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Bitmark Developer
October 21, 2014, 05:00:46 PM
First, is there any way to punish trolls? Internet trolling is such a scourge. We need a way to engage in altruistic punishment (see http://www2.unine.ch/files/content/sites/ethol/files/shared/documents/Fehr_Gaechter_altruistic_punishment.pdf). Perhaps you could have a way to burn one's own marks but simultaneously burn those of a designated troll. This punishment should be public (non-anonymous) so that the mark-rich who might abuse the system would be risking retaliation from large groups of the mark-poor.

We've been through several scenario's.

Spam 1: User marks a link which is classed as spam.
In this scenario the user has burned their own marks, and people tend not to mark (read: upvote, like, share, tip) spam content, so in any ordered list it simply falls to the bottom out of view, and only clutters up their own account.

Spam 2: In a marking powered community, say forum, a user submits spam content.
In this scenario we have discussed a spam button, when another user clicks it some of their marks are staked against the action, if enough people click the spam button the content is automatically binned, and the marks staked on the spam button are returned to the users who clicked it. This acts as democratic semi-automated moderation, and whilst the people clicking the spam button are not rewarded monetarily, they have no increase in balance, they do gain reputation from the action since the marks are sent back to them. Conversely if somebody tries to be a bad moderator and mark legitimate content as spam, they have burned their own marks by doing so.  Note this is many people agreeing something is spam, as opposed to pay to class something as spam.

Network: A troll starts trolling via web-scale marking.
The system I am working on models a federated social network, with social connections and public channels. This means that generally you only see public markings from people you view as reputable (or watch), and markings in generic public categories, or specific categories you follow. The system focuses on curating via marking, and passing reputation, there is no content creation or message channels to speak of. Therefore limit places to troll.

It appears that the marking system promotes good actions, since everything is attached to reputation, reputable actions are rewarded.  In some ways it codifies altruism. We must however stay vigilant to ensure the system cannot be gamed.

Hopefully much more will be written on this topic, and each implementation will advance different approaches to common problems, then share what they have learned between systems.

Thank you for sharing the link, I will enjoy reading it later.

Second, do site-owners need to do something to implement marking? For example, would the NY Times need to cooperate with Bitmark in order to enable its commenters to mark one another? Could this be done in a permissionless manner, perhaps using a browser plugin?

They may implement marking, or integrate marking from another service.  Where they have chosen to implement then they will have their own marking system working in their web applications, on their website.  When they have chosen to integrate marking from another service, then we can expect the system to work in the same way as clicking "like", "share" or "tweet this", nothing complicated required.  Hopefully with the passing of time comment systems such as disqus, and sharing services such as add this, will add mark-this buttons.

However, we can also enable marking via browser plugins, bookmarklets, and apps, so there's really no shortage of approaches, anything can be bootstrapped, both in real life and on the web.

Thank you for the well thought questions, and we look forward to discussing with you further in the future.
pa
hero member
Activity: 528
Merit: 501
October 21, 2014, 10:36:23 AM
Hi, this is my first visit to this thread. This is a fascinating project. I don't have time to read the entire thread, so I'm sorry if these are dumb questions.

First, is there any way to punish trolls? Internet trolling is such a scourge. We need a way to engage in altruistic punishment (see http://www2.unine.ch/files/content/sites/ethol/files/shared/documents/Fehr_Gaechter_altruistic_punishment.pdf). Perhaps you could have a way to burn one's own marks but simultaneously burn those of a designated troll. This punishment should be public (non-anonymous) so that the mark-rich who might abuse the system would be risking retaliation from large groups of the mark-poor.

Second, do site-owners need to do something to implement marking? For example, would the NY Times need to cooperate with Bitmark in order to enable its commenters to mark one another? Could this be done in a permissionless manner, perhaps using a browser plugin?


full member
Activity: 247
Merit: 100
October 21, 2014, 09:38:26 AM
hi can i have some coins  here my wallet :bPwGLHj2km5NPJBrQr6UB82Nr7g4GJdnu7

I would be more than happy to to send you a few Marks. I will stress to you that Marks are a unit of reputation+currency which should be earned.
You can also log on to Poloniex's Troll Box, there you may be Marked for having something positive to contribute.


Thanks for stopping by, if you have any questions about our project please feel free to ask.
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