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Topic: [BitPool] Mesh networks to bypass ISPs (Read 5096 times)

sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
July 23, 2014, 11:22:17 PM
#85
Also, this post might be of interest to be quoted here:

One of the key tenets is that bitcoin block data is easy to distribute widely.  Information wants to be free.  One of the ways we may keep bitcoin healthy and free is finding alternative ways to distribute block chain data.  This provides resilience in case the P2P mesh network is attacked.

My personal favorite is satellite distribution, something I have been working on quietly in the background.  Satellites means one of two things:

  • 1. Buy some bandwidth on an existing satellite.
  • 2. Launch your own satellite.

Buying bandwidth is the most cost-effective, and readily attainable method today.  However, not just any satellite channel will do.  Bitcoin requires a dedicated, one-to-many broadcast mechanism.  This is like renting a TV channel -- although at much lower bandwidth requirements (1MB every minute or two).

Nanosatellites have recently cut satellite costs down from the absurd, traditional $20m+ build, $50m+ launch.  There is now a standardized cubesat size.  Two innovations reduced launch costs down into the $100k's range: (1) Many organizations collaborate together (rideshare), paying a portion of the launch cost.  Sometimes 27 or more cubesats are launched at once.  (2) These clusters of cubesats are launched as a secondary payload.  A primary payload has priority, which means secondary payloads are sometimes not launched into a proper orbit.  With these two factors, cubesat construction and launch is lowered to a reachable price: $2m or so.

Several people, including some investors, in the bitcoin community have privately expressed interest.  It seemed like a good time to move forward with Phase 1 of the project.

Phase 1 is:   flesh out cubesat specifications, research leased bandwidth pricing, and specific data needs (xmit tech, frequencies).  The initial goal is broadcasting worldwide (or at least major continents) the latest bitcoin block, over and over again.  Stretch goals include broadcasting recent chains, recent TX's, and other data.

A word about government involvement:  Set expectations properly.  There are three points at which government is inevitably involved, at some level: (a) getting launch approval, (b) ground station(s) inevitably must be located in some useful geolocation, and (c) frequency selection.   Fundamentally, these satellites will be broadcasting public, not-encrypted blockchain data, so the content should not be an issue.

Donations accepted at 1M9MyyPsAak7zRjW4D96pTxDaAEpDDZLR7

Feb 05 update:

Project update #1 (PDF): http://www.dunveganspace.com/goals/bitsat/BitSatUpdate1.pdf
BitSat architecture, v0.1 (PDF): http://www.dunveganspace.com/goals/bitsat/BitSatArchitecture-0.1.pdf

Files posted on http://www.dunveganspace.com/goals/bitsat

Sponsors (1 BTC or more):
  • Mohit Kalra (2 BTC, May 2014)
  • Unknown (1 BTC, Apr 2014)
  • http://www.redstarmining.com/ (1 BTC, Jan 2014)
  • Roger Ver (5 BTC, Dec 2013)
  • Erik Voorhees (5 BTC, Dec 2013)
  • Rusty Russell (1 BTC, Dec 2013)
  • BitcoinGrant.org (25 BTC, Nov 2013)
  • Jeff Garzik (1 BTC, Nov 2013)

Standard disclaimer:  This is a personal project.  Nothing to do with my employer.

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 20, 2014, 03:07:04 AM
#84
There's Kryptoradio: http://kryptoradio.koodilehto.fi (Connect to the bitcoin network from anywhere – even without the Internet!)

And there's also this Reddit:
Nick Szabo: "Reliable & secure P2P broadcast crucial to block chain protocols. Radio more secure than simulated broadcast on Internet."
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ajrmg/nick_szabo_reliable_secure_p2p_broadcast_crucial

A link to this thread was put there.



legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
July 16, 2014, 02:14:22 PM
#83
----Very Very Expensive----
Something similar to the mesh network offered by the concept of Google Drones.
there will be a need for Antennas with good range, and Satellite Uplink and Downlink To cover the whole world with the mesh.

Instead, if we find a way to mask the data, under the packets which will not face The control from the ISP's would be easily the best, cost effective way to accomplish what we desire.
I maybe blunt and naive in this, but with the right minds working on it, it is very likely to be possible.

Thoughts?

You are describing safecoin if it ever gets going.

It's not like we need to cover the globe in order to turn things on. A small network in major cities connected through an encrypted tunnel via the ISPs will be fine for a long time in most places.

But think of places like China where their Internet is severely censored. This is likely to be the way of things everyone else. Government likes to fill spaces where it is not involved. The Internet is like a vacuum of freedom that will be filled by government regulation eventually.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
July 16, 2014, 01:50:57 PM
#82
----Very Very Expensive----
Something similar to the mesh network offered by the concept of Google Drones.
there will be a need for Antennas with good range, and Satellite Uplink and Downlink To cover the whole world with the mesh.

Instead, if we find a way to mask the data, under the packets which will not face The control from the ISP's would be easily the best, cost effective way to accomplish what we desire.
I maybe blunt and naive in this, but with the right minds working on it, it is very likely to be possible.

Thoughts?
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
July 16, 2014, 11:20:57 AM
#81
Hi, I have found this. Sounds interesting.

On Covert Acoustical Mesh Networks in Air
Michael Hanspach and Michael Goetz
Fraunhofer FKIE, Wachtberg, Germany

http://cryptome.org/2014/06/covert-acoustical-mesh.pdf

Quote
Abstract
— Covert channels can be used to circumvent system and network policies by establishing communications that have not been considered in the design of the computing system. We construct a covert channel between different computing systems that utilizes audio modulation/demodulation to exchange data between the computing systems over the air medium. The underlying network stack is based on a communication system that was originally designed for robust underwater communication. We adapt the communication system to implement covert and stealthy communications by utilizing the ultrasonic frequency range. We further demonstrate how the scenario of covert acoustical communication over the air medium can be extended to multi-hop communications and even to wireless mesh networks. A covert acoustical mesh network can be conceived as a meshed botnet or malnet that is accessible via inaudible audio transmissions. Different applications of covert acoustical mesh networks are presented, including the use for remote keylogging over multiple hops. It is shown that the concept of a covert acoustical mesh network renders many conventional security concepts useless, as acoustical communications are usually not considered. Finally, countermeasures against covert acoustical mesh networks are discussed, including the use of lowpass filtering in computing systems and a host-based intrusion detection system for analyzing audio input and output in order to detect any irregularities.
Index Terms
— malware, network covert channels, wireless mesh networks, ultrasonic communication
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 253
July 06, 2014, 04:30:32 PM
#80
well now we know you have no desire to be involved and lack insightful idea's to help make something like this happen. you can get on with your life.


I have been getting on with my life. All I came to this thread for was to say "This is the answer to the net neutrality problem" and "Does anyone plan on making a Global network" then you started acting like I had a fist in your ass.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
July 06, 2014, 05:02:41 AM
#79
I think the first step would be to design the software (some open source solutions already available) and factor in paying for it with bitcoins.

Then from there we can ramp up to the hardware.

With hardware requirements we can have an open source hardware platform that people can then start creating themselves and someone can start mass producing similar to mining hardware companies.


One big decision would be the way to charge.

Is it better to charge for time with a set "pipe" of limited bandwidth, or charge for blocks of data usage?

Time
Pros:
Most people are used to paying per minute for phones or per month or per day/week, etc.
The longer the time for subscription, the less Bitcoin transactions needed

Cons:
If a network connection is not highly utilized, limiting the connection of someone trying to move large amounts of data is unnecessary.
There would only be a certain amount of "reserved" slots per connection to guarantee users' access to the pipe.

Usage
Pros:
Each connection can serve as many users as it wants at full capacity
You only pay for what you use, if you don't send or receive much data you don't pay as much as network hogs
It encourages software/habits to not use as much data for transfers

Cons:
Most people prefer to just pay on a subscription basis and not have to worry about how much data they're using
People using a lot of data regularly like gamers or skype or netflix or other large transfers will have to pay more
Discouraging usage might not make economic sense for a system set up to get paid for usage

Thoughts?
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
July 05, 2014, 07:07:09 PM
#78
well now we know you have no desire to be involved and lack insightful idea's to help make something like this happen. you can get on with your life.

now lets get back on topic,
to everyone else with interest

its obvious that people wont want to offer their bandwidth and relay equipment for free, as noted a couple pages ago and elswhere.

i think that a starting point would be to get towns wifi covered first. with local relays.. then expand to going town to town and entwining these towns together with long distance technology later on.

so lets concentrate on the local side again as the country-wide internet loss is not an immediate threat, but getting more wi-fi coverage can be a current belefit. and it slowly introduces people to the concept.

so which local (within city limit) idea's do people have that can work
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 253
July 05, 2014, 06:54:42 PM
#77
It wouldn't have to be the whole planet. If 90% of people were on a free network and 10% of people were paying for internet (because they chose to), that would be better than what we have today. The point is, try to get it everywhere.

And I was just asking if anyone was doing it, I didn't say you should do it, or I should.

you think 90% are above poverty line to just share internet freely?........................................................

[edit 5 minutes later] sorry i just collapsed with laughter

OH MY GOD PLEASE GET YOUR HEAD CHECKED

You are the most ignorant (ignoring things said to you) person I have ever met.

I ASKED if anyone had these GOALS. I NEVER said that I was going to do this.
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
July 05, 2014, 05:26:28 PM
#76
Wifi has the advantage of already being available.  Optical communication using inexpensive LEDs and basic optics may be useful in some locations to create a 10 Mbit/s full duplex Ethernet point-to-point link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA
http://ronja.twibright.com/
Ronja 10M Metropolis
Provides 10Mbps full duplex on a full duplex AUI interface. The distance is 1.4km with 130mm lenses and 900m with 90mm lenses. The transmitter is a 625nm LED diode, output power 17mW and the optics is made from loupes.

This "wifi hotspot" still needs to be connected to the rest of the internet via traditional means (an ISP)

yep and the owner that has true internet connection, can work out if he can handle 20 connections. then he can work out 5% of his internet bill+profit. and charge that as a month fee to 20 connections he allows..

after all why would he be forced to pay for the internet and have 20 other people suck his bandwidth..for free
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
July 05, 2014, 05:20:53 PM
#75
Wifi has the advantage of already being available.  Optical communication using inexpensive LEDs and basic optics may be useful in some locations to create a 10 Mbit/s full duplex Ethernet point-to-point link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA
http://ronja.twibright.com/



Ronja 10M Metropolis
Provides 10Mbps full duplex on a full duplex AUI interface. The distance is 1.4km with 130mm lenses and 900m with 90mm lenses. The transmitter is a 625nm LED diode, output power 17mW and the optics is made from loupes.

This "wifi hotspot" still needs to be connected to the rest of the internet via traditional means (an ISP)
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
July 05, 2014, 04:37:45 PM
#74
It wouldn't have to be the whole planet. If 90% of people were on a free network and 10% of people were paying for internet (because they chose to), that would be better than what we have today. The point is, try to get it everywhere.

And I was just asking if anyone was doing it, I didn't say you should do it, or I should.

you think 90% are above poverty line to just share internet freely?........................................................

[edit 5 minutes later] sorry i just collapsed with laughter
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 253
July 05, 2014, 04:25:27 PM
#73
It wouldn't have to be the whole planet. If 90% of people were on a free network and 10% of people were paying for internet (because they chose to), that would be better than what we have today. The point is, try to get it everywhere.

And I was just asking if anyone was doing it, I didn't say you should do it, or I should.
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
July 05, 2014, 02:07:44 PM
#72

You are missing the point.

It may SEEM like a "company" like this would become greedy and centralized, but I was not talking about companies.
And once the WHOLE WORLD was meshed, no one would have to pay, everyone would just be connected by default and it would kill the big companies.

so supply me free internet today
oh wait equipment costs money, electricity costs money,

then when scaling it up for supernodes to reach bigger distances telecommunication licences (radio signals) cost money. higher tech to handle multiple users without bottle necking, costs money..

google is only offering free internet in area's not because it costs nothing, but because they make enough profit from other projects to offer free internet.

if everyone on the planet could afford to buy a relay that could handle 5000 people going through it atleast. and be getting enough wealth from other jobs or projects to not charge for the privelidge..

again if EVERYONE ON THE PLANET could do this.. then we are indeed in a fantasy where everything in life is free and that there are no poor people.

(please put the weed away and think about things in reality! why oh why do i have to keep bringing you back to reality.. your stuck in your utopian dreams.. can you atleast admit that, as its the first sign of recovery if you can.)
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 253
July 05, 2014, 01:50:36 PM
#71
Is there any known existing mesh network whose goal is to mesh the world, to take control of the internet and put it in the people's hands?

yea, they united people together and charge a fee for access, to their local supernode in your state/country so that you dont have to pay 1000 pennies per connection to individuals you just pay a supernode a monthly charge

....  you will find many different states/countries having these supernodes, their names are as folows
bell
BT
vodafone
horizon
t-mobile
teliphonica
.. the list goes on, but they prefer to be called ISP's not supernodes. though they do the same job

unless you can solve the super node problem so that individuals get paid to relay, and have it so that its still fast even passing through 5000+ people.. then the supernode relays(as explained 2 pages back) will just be the same as the established internet connection entities i just listed, greedy and centralized.

You are missing the point.

It may SEEM like a "company" like this would become greedy and centralized, but I was not talking about companies.
And once the WHOLE WORLD was meshed, no one would have to pay, everyone would just be connected by default and it would kill the big companies.
hero member
Activity: 688
Merit: 500
ヽ( ㅇㅅㅇ)ノ ~!!
July 05, 2014, 12:45:54 PM
#70
https://projectmeshnet.org

May have already been linked, but, has anyone here actually used this? What are the features, limitations, flaws?

It seems mildly interesting but, as far as I read you can't randomly connect to anyone, you have to find somebody willing to "peer" with you... So e.g. somebody passing through a city can't just connect to some Wifi node on that network.
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2014, 12:24:44 PM
#69
Wifi has the advantage of already being available.  Optical communication using inexpensive LEDs and basic optics may be useful in some locations to create a 10 Mbit/s full duplex Ethernet point-to-point link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA
http://ronja.twibright.com/



Ronja 10M Metropolis
Provides 10Mbps full duplex on a full duplex AUI interface. The distance is 1.4km with 130mm lenses and 900m with 90mm lenses. The transmitter is a 625nm LED diode, output power 17mW and the optics is made from loupes.
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
July 05, 2014, 11:57:43 AM
#68
Is there any known existing mesh network whose goal is to mesh the world, to take control of the internet and put it in the people's hands?

yea, they united people together and charge a fee for access, to their local supernode in your state/country so that you dont have to pay 1000 pennies per connection to individuals you just pay a supernode a monthly charge

....  you will find many different states/countries having these supernodes, their names are as folows
bell
BT
vodafone
horizon
t-mobile
teliphonica
.. the list goes on, but they prefer to be called ISP's not supernodes. though they do the same job

unless you can solve the super node problem so that individuals get paid to relay, and have it so that its still fast even passing through 5000+ people.. then the supernode relays(as explained 2 pages back) will just be the same as the established internet connection entities i just listed, greedy and centralized.
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 253
July 05, 2014, 11:28:07 AM
#67
Is there any known existing mesh network whose goal is to mesh the world, to take control of the internet and put it in the people's hands?
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 04, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
#66

Antennas using 802.11n have been able to achieve transmission distances over 300 km unamplified.
Well that is more interesting! If something like this could be used to link cities.

I'm guessing that terrain matters though and this "300km" was line of sight?
feet, not kilometers.

304 km
http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1984314/wi-fi-world-record-set-304km
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_Wi-Fi

Yes, it has to be line of site.


link first established on 2007-06-16
it appears to be permanent from Monte Amiata (Tuscany) to Monte Limbara (Sardinia)
frequency: 5765 MHz
IEEE 802.11a (Wi-Fi), bandwidth 5 MHz
Radio: Ubiquiti Networks XR5
Wireless routers: MikroTik RouterBOARD with RouterOS, NStreme optimization enabled
Length: 304 km (189 mi).
Antenna is 120 cm with handmade waveguide. 35 dBi estimated
I imagine with a VLA you could get thousands or even millions of miles.
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