Topic: bitsquare.io - The P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange - page 12. (Read 34688 times)

Of course you cannot proof that anyone will behave any way in the future. Seems self evident.


How so? Many Hawaladar never met. And there is nothing in ZR that demands that you cannot know people you trust in ZR in the real world.

Many people here put their Bitcoin address in their signature. You might donate $20 worth to a project you like. But you would not grant a credit of $20 to that project? Seems inconsistent to me. But then, maybe you would also never donate, in which case you are at least consistent.


You don't really mean that, do you?

[EDIT:]OK, that was it for me - else it might seem that I want to hijack this thread.

So it would be even more difficult to gauge your level of trust with them.


They indeed betrayed us, but there is no proof that some guys out of the hierarchy will do any better, so it begs the question if it's really worth the effort to reinvent the wheel at all, given that you maybe able to just abandon it, when it comes to money transfer.


Hawala relations are much more real, they are in your RL social network and you can't just walk away from it, online identities are a completely different matter.

Not a very good reason for a Java programmer considering how similar Java and C++ are. Especially since there is a lot of Java to do. For example: Currently ZR uses the Satoshi client. But since this is a full Bitcoin node, I'd like to have bitcoinj as a drop in replacement. For this, someone needs to create a bitcoind compatible JSON-RPC layer like Mike Hearn proposed. Eventually there will be a Java implementation - we have to move to mobile platforms.


First, you would not necessarily grant your friend a credit that is anywhere near to the amount you trust him with. If a friend really cheats you for that smaller amount, that does influence the friendship, but in that case I'd say: Good riddance.

Another misconception is the meaning of "friend". In ZR context, it is simply someone you trust with money, for any reason. It is not the same as "close friend" or even "drinking buddy".

It is an argument I hear very often. Yet those same people trust a centralized exchange like MtGox or even btc-e. Does anyone know anything about btc-e? And why trust banks, especially today? Historically, banks screwed their customers every 5-7 decades. We Germans got screwed big time after WWII but we generally had the feeling like we deserved it for the war, so it went unnoticed. Now the system in the entire West is heading for another big reset.

Lastly, there is such a system that works since centuries, even millenia: Hawala / Hundi. Ripple is by no means a new idea. It is just that computer-less Hawala doesn't scale well while with computers it does because the software takes care about the complexities of routing. ZR enables everyone who chooses participate to become a Hawaladar. I think we need to walk away from the current banking system as much as possible.

The network effects you mention applies to every P2P system: The more people participate the more attractive it gets. There is the dilemma: 5 guys implementing 5 different system may result in the failure of all 5 systems because none of them ever achieves critical mass. If those same 5 guys had joined in a team to implement one, it may have succeeded. And: Given enough eye balls, all bugs are shallow (Eric Raymond)

I presented yesterday at a local BTC meetup my idea for a funding model (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OXuqPHMAESPbTvymAyn2uqko8R9X32yGOb9yCRVLMP0).
The feedback was very positive and there were interesting discussions following.

So I am going to continue with that funding model, but I would need some help for preparing the funding process.

Basically I need help in those areas:
- Communications
- Webpage
- Video

Communications:
I need someone for the communication with the community, explaining and presenting the concept.
Sombody like Stephan Tual (who do communications for Ethereum) would be a perfect fit.

Webpage:
We need a webpage with all relevant information.

Video:
The classic info-graphics style is kind of over-used but as long we don't find a better solution for explaining the idea, I would consider it as the way to go.
That video is pretty well done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCP8NeXasY

The funding model will consists in several funding rounds. Eeach round will take place after a milestone is reached (continuous deployment).
The funding target in every round will be the money needed for the reached milestone. So basically the payment to developers and other contributors (communications, webpage, video).
People who are stable contributors and share the mindset of the core team will be invited to become members of the non-profit organisation.
We cannot guarantee any payment, but if the funding is successful you get paid for your efforts.

Feel free to contact me at: team [at] bitsquare.io or in our IRC channel #bitsquare.io (at freenode).
More details to the funding model you can find here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MysGJcPydv3EabshTFiFTtwQC86_4-HG7dSPp0_YhHc/edit#heading=h.q7h5twnzf2u0

I am not experienced with c++ (unfortunately), so that would be one reason I could not join ZeroReserve.
I am more or less familiar with the basics of Ryan Fuggers ripple system, but never delved deeper into it. Basically I find it a very interesting idea but I have some concerns with it:
For me it always felt a bit limited and hard to reach wider adoption due the difficulty of bootstrapping it. It would only work well if there are already a lot of people in...
My main interest was to create an excahnge which deals with the real fiat money not with IOUs. I know fiat is IOU as well but it the more universal accepted IOU. With all those crypto IOU systems I miss the part how they enforce and audit the reserve of the IOU. If I issue 100 000 EUR_IOUs, who checks/enforces that I am really be able to convert them to EUR if anyone wants that? Even if I have the 100 000 EUR as reserve, price volatility would need a constant update of that reserve. 1 EUR_IOU is not necessary equal to 1 EUR. We have seen that with MtGox, the funds there where basically low quality IOUs for BTC and Fiat. When it crashed much of those IOUs became worthless.
So I am missing the interface to the classic fiat world. I cannot pay my bills with EUR_IOU, so some conversion point is necessary, at least as long not a majority of real life entities are accepting crypto currencies.
Another problem I personally have with ripple style concepts is the combination of friendship relationships with money.
If I lend money from a friend and I am unable to pay it back, my friend can get in trouble as well and that could have influence to the friendship. All that can easily happen without any bad intention (accident, cannot work anymore,...). I prefer a system which is more abstract and handle those risky with insurance, like the banks are doing it. That does not imply that I am fan of Banks ;-)...

But I did not find time yet to read your whitepaper, so my concern might be wrong with your system, and as I said before, I am not soo familiar with the ripple concept.

Yes. Sorry, I find it hard to comment on bitsquare other that I wish you the best of luck. And that I find it regrettable that you did not consider to join ZeroReserve. My reason not to join Ripple were quite obvious - 3 letters suffice to explain it: XRP. May I ask, what was your reason not to join ZR?

Ah nice to see you here! Your project seems to be one of the very few other serious attempts to create a P2P exchange.

Watching

The offerer defines a min. collateral (% of trade volume). If this is lower then the arbitration fee then the arbitration fee will be used as collateral value. Arbitration fee is only paid in case of dispute and only from the trader who was behaving unfair. The collateral will be typically in the range of 5% -20% of the trade volume.

How is collateral decided? Is it some specific portion of the trade size? Is there a minimum trade size?

I'm very excited about the development of this project. I believe decentralized applications are truly the way of the future for Bitcoin. I will be following this project very closely!

The bank details are only exchanged between the 2 traders (after they have paid the trading fee). As in the bank tx the privacy is leaked anyway, so that is not an issue but a basic limitation (just like with localbitcoin or bitcoin.de). When you place an offer you define which bank transfer types (SEPA, intern. OKPAY,...) and from which countries (wher the bank is located) you are willing to accept. In your setting you also define which bank transfer types/countries you accept, so the (global) orderbook will be filtered to only display the matching results to your preferences (include more attributes like language,...).

My question was not related to language support as such. I wanted to know how would the bank to bank transfers take place? Will you be taking bank details of the users and exchanging it with the others?

We ask for donations from the community (kind of crowdfunding).
No it is not limited to any region. Global support for languages and currencies. In the beginning it will be launched in a few main languages (clinet software language), but a large language support is planned.

Interesting. If there is no fees for exchange, how do you make money?

Will the P2P bank account transfers be limited to US?

Watching!

There will be trading fees (offer creation, offer taking). Those are necessary to prevent spam and market manipulation (fake offers).
The registration fee helps also to prevent scam. In serious scams (bank charge backs) the account and the bank account data will be published to a fraud report, so he cannot use his account anymore (lose his registration fee) and cannot use his bank account anymore (he cannot create endless bank accounts).
There are arbitrators resolving disputes. They hold the 3. key in the 2of3 MultiSig fund, so they cannot run away with teh money they just can decide who gets the money in case of dispute.

The fees will also be used to help developing the project. Supporters donating for the development will become the fee receivers. So it is a kind of collective ownership. That at least is currently planned, but it is still in discussion and need more feedback from the community.

Sweet concept!

A few first-glance questions:
Will will the fees be?
Do you thing having a fee for creating the account is the best way to fight spam?
Will there be escrow?

Looking forward to seeing P2P exchanges everywhere .

Great! For testing its still way too early, but I will remember you later ;-)
Any feedback/analysis of the concept is welcome as well!

I don't do java development anymore but I am an experienced tester. If you need any help, I would be happy to help.