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Topic: bitZino - Bitcoin Casino - Blackjack, Roulette, 3 Card Poker, Slots and more! - page 33. (Read 82361 times)

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
Quote
Our servers also generate a random string, called the server_seed. We combine the initial_shuffle and the server_seed strings into a single JSON encoded string. We call this JSON string the secret.

Response: "WTF is a JSON string?"

"JSON, or JavaScript Object Notation, is a text-based open standard designed for human-readable data interchange" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON

It's just a way of formatting strings.  Since the server has two things it wants to keep secret, but doesn't want to flood you with too much information, it combines the two things into a single string of text before hashing it.  JSON is just a convenient way of doing it.  So if the server_seed is "xxx1" and the initial_shuffle is "yyy2", the secret formed by combining these two pieces of information would be:

{"server_seed":"xxx1","initial_shuffle":"yyy2"}

and that's what ends up getting hashed and displayed before the game starts.

Quote
Finally, we hash the secret using the SHA256 one-way hashing algorithm. This is called the Hash(secret). We show you this value to you before the hand starts, so you can independently verify that we didn't manipulate the server_seed or the initial_shuffle.

Response: This I understand, but only because a few months ago a bitcoin/cryptogeek friend of mine explained what a SHA256 is and how it worked to verify the bitcoin kamikaze game, if you remember that one. Without that lesson, this would make no sense to me.

That's the part I guessed would be a stumbling block.

Quote
Our servers then hash the combination of the server_seed and the client_seed (using SHA256 again). We use this hash to seed the Mersenne Twister pseudorandom number generator. We then fully reshuffle the deck using this random number generator

Response: "Huh? Seed? Mersene Twisters?"

Mersenne Twister is an algorithm for shuffling a list into an apparently random order.  It's not really random; it takes a list that you want shuffled and a number (called the seed) that determines how the shuffle will happen, exactly.  If you always use the same seed, you'll always get the same shuffle, but use a slightly different seed and you'll get a completely different shuffle.  It's a little like hashing in that respect.

Anyways, even if I personally were to understand it, it would be valuable to explain it so normal people understood. Sort of like how my friend taught me how Bitcoin Kamikaze was provably fair as well. This may entice more traditional online gaming aficionados to adopt Bitcoin, thus bolstering our economy.

For instance, the Wizard of Odds runs a popular gambling forum. He endorses Bodog gaming because he says that there have been too many sites that were rigged and he trusts Bodog (plus he probably makes a bunch on affiliate deals, but that's neither here nor there). If Bitzino can explain to normal people how their games are "provably fair" via mathematics, then their system should carry as much weight as a Wizard endorsement, if not more so.

Understood.  I guess it's hard to know how far back to basics to go when giving such an explanation.  I notice Mersenne Twister is linked to a page that explains it, but SHA256 isn't, for example.  I've gone through the process of explaining all this to someone with no relevant knowledge myself, and it can take a while to get through to them, even when you have immediate feedback of which bits they're struggling with.

I think those are very good points.  Non-geeks have no idea, and it really doesn't matter, about JSON or SHA256 specifics.

So I guess a separate explanation for 'non-geeks' would be useful.  The specifics are important, otherwise there's no point in having it "provably fair".  The method used needs to be explained fully enough that though who care and technically able can go through the motions themselves and verify a few hands.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
I think those are very good points.  Non-geeks have no idea, and it really doesn't matter, about JSON or SHA256 specifics.
sr. member
Activity: 449
Merit: 250
Did you read https://bitzino.com/about/fair ?  If so, is there something in it that's hard to understand?  Or is it just that you prefer to watch video than to read?  Or are you getting hung up on issues like "what is a hash"?

I have errands to run, so this will be a quick reply, but I did not find that helpful. Troublesome parts, with my responses:

Quote
Our servers also generate a random string, called the server_seed. We combine the initial_shuffle and the server_seed strings into a single JSON encoded string. We call this JSON string the secret.

Response: "WTF is a JSON string?"

Quote
Finally, we hash the secret using the SHA256 one-way hashing algorithm. This is called the Hash(secret). We show you this value to you before the hand starts, so you can independently verify that we didn't manipulate the server_seed or the initial_shuffle.

Response: This I understand, but only because a few months ago a bitcoin/cryptogeek friend of mine explained what a SHA256 is and how it worked to verify the bitcoin kamikaze game, if you remember that one. Without that lesson, this would make no sense to me.

Quote
Our servers then hash the combination of the server_seed and the client_seed (using SHA256 again). We use this hash to seed the Mersenne Twister pseudorandom number generator. We then fully reshuffle the deck using this random number generator

Response: "Huh? Seed? Mersene Twisters?"

Anyways, even if I personally were to understand it, it would be valuable to explain it so normal people understood. Sort of like how my friend taught me how Bitcoin Kamikaze was provably fair as well. This may entice more traditional online gaming aficionados to adopt Bitcoin, thus bolstering our economy.

For instance, the Wizard of Odds runs a popular gambling forum. He endorses Bodog gaming because he says that there have been too many sites that were rigged and he trusts Bodog (plus he probably makes a bunch on affiliate deals, but that's neither here nor there). If Bitzino can explain to normal people how their games are "provably fair" via mathematics, then their system should carry as much weight as a Wizard endorsement, if not more so.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
Great work, getting covered in the Forbes blog!

That's the first I heard of it.  I googled for it and found the article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/08/31/bitzino-and-the-dawn-of-provably-fair-casino-gaming/

One thing I'd really like to see would be a video screencast on youtube or whatever that walks people like me who are "cryptographically challenged" through your "provably fair" system. You should target it for an audience that is intelligent, yet not specifically trained in high-level math or cryptographic theory. This would be a good step in marketing to traditional online gaming customers and may bring more people into the world of bitcoin.

Did you read https://bitzino.com/about/fair ?  If so, is there something in it that's hard to understand?  Or is it just that you prefer to watch video than to read?  Or are you getting hung up on issues like "what is a hash"?

https://techblog.bitzino.com/2012-06-30-provably-fair-shuffling-through-cryptography.html goes into more detail, but I don't know if that's just going to confuse you more, since I've no idea what bit you're having trouble with.
sr. member
Activity: 449
Merit: 250
Great work, getting covered in the Forbes blog!

One thing I'd really like to see would be a video screencast on youtube or whatever that walks people like me who are "cryptographically challenged" through your "provably fair" system. You should target it for an audience that is intelligent, yet not specifically trained in high-level math or cryptographic theory. This would be a good step in marketing to traditional online gaming customers and may bring more people into the world of bitcoin.
member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
Also you need a 'half bets' with that double bet buttons Smiley

-kaji
member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
Quote
I hope that the ability we just added to click anywhere on the popup to dismiss it should help here! Let me know if not. We definitely want to accommodate all players, including those that like to bet the inside

I added a quarter BTC to your account for the helpul feedback, Kaji.

Tried it out on my lunch break.  A+! Using mouse to play the inside is easier.  And I like the double all wagers option.  Amazing quick response time!

You never committed on my android app comment.  Doesn't HTML5 have features that make that transference easier?

-kaji
member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
Very nice! I was able to get my 0.005 deposit back and then some! Will definitely come back  Grin

Oh, and made 2 withdrawals, one took > 20 mins, the other was within seconds. Thanks!
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
Playing around some more... I think it would be helpful to know how much you have on the table.

Yeah, agreed. We're working on incorporating this into the "double all my bets" UI that we're working on, so stay tuned!

By the way, what's your username? I'll comp you some BTC to thank you for the helpful feedback.
It is ErebusBat, I just never setup an account before because BJ isn't my game.   Account setup and deposit made... look for 'donations' this weekend Wink
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 252
We've just pushed a change to add a 4th main button to allow you to double all of your active bets. We also now display the sum of your total much active bets. This should make it easier to quickly see how much you're betting, and also make it easier to vary your bets between spins.

Also, and you may already do this, can you data tag the field so that only the numeric keys show on mobile devices?

This change is now live!

This seems a little patchy.  For example, click on the top edge of the table, between the 12 and 15.  "10 to 15 sixline" pops up as the title.  Click right in the middle of the 'x' in 'sixline' and the box almost never closes.  But click a pixel or two to the left and it does.  I'm not sure what is determining whether the popup closes or not when I click on its title/description.

Ah, good catch! It turns out this was because of the arrow, which is actually just a square div rotated 45 degrees, not having a click handler assigned to it. This resulted in the small triangle at the top of the popup not responding to clicks. This is fixed now.


I just spun the roulette wheel for the first time since your recent changes.  And it's still spinning.  My Internet went out for a while, but it's back now.  I was thinking the wheel might stop when the Internet service came back, but no.

Edit: reloading the page shows my balance back to where it started, so in all likelihood the server never saw my bet.  The "repeat last" button was greyed out, too.  Should the web browser re-submit the bet when Internet service returns?  Because it doesn't appear to.

It does make sense that the wheel would just keep spinning forever, because the response from the server is what triggers the animation to stop.  Also, your bet won't get automatically re-submitted to the server - it just makes a single request.

We can probably handle this situation much more gracefully by adding a timeout to the request, and then alerting you that your internet is likely out. We'll look into doing that.

A suggestion: remember what game I was playing most recently, and take me back to that game when I visit your site.  Currently it always seems to start at blackjack, even though it's able to remember my last roulette bet between sessions.

That's a really good idea! I had thought of doing this when I launched Video Poker a while ago, but never ended up executing it. So, thanks for the reminder!
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
A suggestion: remember what game I was playing most recently, and take me back to that game when I visit your site.  Currently it always seems to start at blackjack, even though it's able to remember my last roulette bet between sessions.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
I just spun the roulette wheel for the first time since your recent changes.  And it's still spinning.  My Internet went out for a while, but it's back now.  I was thinking the wheel might stop when the Internet service came back, but no.

Also, while it was spinning I think I may have placed another bet.  And now the 'spinning' button has changed back to 'spin', even though the wheel is still spinning.



Edit: reloading the page shows my balance back to where it started, so in all likelihood the server never saw my bet.  The "repeat last" button was greyed out, too.  Should the web browser re-submit the bet when Internet service returns?  Because it doesn't appear to.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
- You can now close the popup box by clicking on any of the empty area inside of it. I hope this is a good solution for people that like to bet the inside.

This seems a little patchy.  For example, click on the top edge of the table, between the 12 and 15.  "10 to 15 sixline" pops up as the title.  Click right in the middle of the 'x' in 'sixline' and the box almost never closes.  But click a pixel or two to the left and it does.  I'm not sure what is determining whether the popup closes or not when I click on its title/description.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 252
We just pushed a change that fixes many of the bugs people have been mentioning:

- The animation time for fading out lost bets has been lengthened
- The spin button no longer "flashes" in the middle of the spin
- When the popup shows up, the text for the bet is now selected.
- You can now close the popup box by clicking on any of the empty area inside of it. I hope this is a good solution for people that like to bet the inside.

I'm talking about the 'bet per click' box, not the bet sizing box, in case you misunderstood.

Ah yes, I did mis-read your original post. We experimented with adding these buttons next to the Bet-per-click box, but found that they were somewhat confusing - it was unclear if it doubled the bets on the currently table, or if it just doubled the bet-per-click. In the end, we decided that doubling the bet-per-click isn't really necessary, so it was better to just remove that part of the UI altogether.

However, we agree that it would be nice if you could double all of your current bets....

I just noticed I have to click 4 times per spin if I want to double my previous bet

Yeah, this is not ideal. We are exploring a UI to allow you to make actions on all of your bets on the table (something like a "double all by bets" button), because it's pretty clear there is demand for this.

Playing around some more... I think it would be helpful to know how much you have on the table.

Yeah, agreed. We're working on incorporating this into the "double all my bets" UI that we're working on, so stay tuned!

By the way, what's your username? I'll comp you some BTC to thank you for the helpful feedback.

I'm having a difficult time pulling myself away from roulette to post on here.  But Awesome JOB! I'm so excited to see your craps game now.  It's incredible to see this quality of a service in the bitcoin community.

Thanks! Feedback like this helps keeps us going Cheesy

My critique.  The bet box gets in the way for people who like to play the inside.  Maybe i'm the only one.  But i have to hit enter on the key board to get the value to take 1... I should be able to set a default price and click my bet on many options.  If the box had to stay make it vanish when clicking it. But that would just add 1 extra click per bet. But it at least needs more than a key board exit.

I hope that the ability we just added to click anywhere on the popup to dismiss it should help here! Let me know if not. We definitely want to accommodate all players, including those that like to bet the inside Smiley

I added a quarter BTC to your account for the helpul feedback, Kaji.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback!
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
Enter "Stop Cheating" in the client seed.


That is my secret that I shared with the forum a few weeks ago and it works every time as long as you don't abuse it.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1053544
True Story.... I wasn't going to go looking but I did get the idea from you!
member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
I'm having a difficult time pulling myself away from roulette to post on here.  But Awesome JOB! I'm so excited to see your craps game now.  It's incredible to see this quality of a service in the bitcoin community.

My critique.  The bet box gets in the way for people who like to play the inside.  Maybe i'm the only one.  But i have to hit enter on the key board to get the value to take 1... I should be able to set a default price and click my bet on many options.  If the box had to stay make it vanish when clicking it. But that would just add 1 extra click per bet. But it at least needs more than a key board exit.

I would pay for your games to be on an android app!

-kaji
sr. member
Activity: 449
Merit: 250
Enter "Stop Cheating" in the client seed.


That is my secret that I shared with the forum a few weeks ago and it works every time as long as you don't abuse it.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1053544
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
Enter "Stop Cheating" in the client seed.
member
Activity: 74
Merit: 10
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
I noticed a small bug: while the ball is spinning, it is possible to click on clear bets button. This increases your balance again, although once the ball is done spinning it gets corrected and you see the correct amount again.

I noticed it's possible to place bets while the wheel is spinning; these decrease your balance, but are corrected when the spin is complete.  It would be better to disable both the placing and clearing of bets while the spin is happening.

I comped you a quarter BTC, Dooglus for being so helpful with the bug reports and suggestions. Keep it coming though!

Thanks.  I'm sure you'll have it all back soon.  Smiley

And it's gone...

Just as I predicted.

I bet 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 mBTC all on red, and got black every time.  The final red was the dust I had left - I couldn't afford to double up again, and it quickly disappeared too:

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