It's very cut and dried. Anything other than refunding denominated in dollars is fraud.
Really? In that case paying the order in bitcoins is also a fraud?
Topic: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s - page 141. (Read 787122 times)
Really? In that case paying the order in bitcoins is also a fraud?
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Anything other than refunding denominated in dollars is fraud.
Does that mean paying with anything not denominated in dollars is fraud?
The real issue is the conversions. It gets convoluted as shit. Refunds should really only be given, if at all, in the form of payment they were made. It is too damn confusing any other way, and opens the door to people trying to skew things in their favor. It is a rather cut and dry matter in my mind. You get what you paid back. If you gave them 5 bananas then that is what you should get back, 5 bananas. the concept is a little abstract maybe? I don't really think so but why don't people seem to grasp it?
Completely misunderstood what you said earlier.
Sorry about that.
I agree with you and it is goozman I disagree with.
That is appreciated man! Thank you! Sorry for being extra caustic.
We at least both agree on disagreeing with gooz
The real issue is the conversions. It gets convoluted as shit. Refunds should really only be given, if at all, in the form of payment they were made. It is too damn confusing any other way, and opens the door to people trying to skew things in their favor. It is a rather cut and dry matter in my mind. You get what you paid back. If you gave them 5 bananas then that is what you should get back, 5 bananas. the concept is a little abstract maybe? I don't really think so but why don't people seem to grasp it?
Completely misunderstood what you said earlier.
Sorry about that.
I agree with you and it is goozman I disagree with.
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At least that is what is fair and logical.
It's only fair and logical to you when it means more money for you.
If btc price went up I can guarantee you would be begging for your original btc.
Also people have sued bfl and hashfast for their original btc payment and won.
There is no easy way to determine the value of btc during time of payment and time of refund as there will always be debate if the price goes up/down or differs depending on which exchange. So without specific terms it is unreasonable to expect this.
It is simply bullshit to impose your own special refund terms after you agreed to no refunds.
And it makes no sense to attempt to smear a companies reputation through the ftc/whatever just because a product they sold was delayed. (which you agreed to no refunds) Especially when minersource is not at fault here and they have been working hard to make things right.
Btc price went down since when i paid them, if those bullshit accusations you are trying to throw at me are true i would have asked for a lot more than my initial 2 btc back.
It makes plenty of sense that if you operate a business in the UNITED STATES that you adhere to their rules.
I have acknowledged plenty of times that minersource is most likely getting fucked just as hard as any of us. They wanna be the big dogs running their mining equipment business, they can follow the rules then.
Did you even read what i said? Your fucking response is so far off base it is like you lack any ability to comprehend what was said.
And this is why BTC isn't likely to ever make it as a virtual currency. Because everyone wants to slant in the way that benefits them. When Hashfast was talking refunds in dollars those that paid in cheap BTC wanted their BTC back in full and when those that paid BFL and BA etc. in pricey BTC want refunds in dollars now that the price has dropped. It's not a currency, it's a commodity.
The only time this would not be appropriate would be if a product's price is firmly denominated in BTC (ie the BTC price doesn't fluctuate in response to the current exchange rate).
Everyone else can have their own opinion. This is mine and I feel like it's a reasonable position.
You are entitled to your opinion. How ever incorrect it might be
I see your point, but why not just use fiat instead? Why not just cash out your btc then and use it to pay for what ever at the point of sale? I get that you are upset that the rig makers stand to gain massive amounts. I have thought the same thing. They could have just cashed out when it was 1200, then bought back in for 600 a few months later. That really only works if you make tons of assumptions about what they are actually doing with the money.
It makes the most sense that if something is valued in fiat, and you have two choices of fiat and btc to pay. That you receive back your original amount of the payment type. If btc was worth 1200 when you bought something for 1200, that was 1 btc, the price of btc drops to 600. Well if you hadn't have purchased the item and still had your 1 btc, it would now only be worth 600.
What in your right mind makes you think that the merchant should eat that risk for you?
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At least that is what is fair and logical.
It's only fair and logical to you when it means more money for you.
If btc price went up I can guarantee you would be begging for your original btc.
Also people have sued bfl and hashfast for their original btc payment and won.
There is no easy way to determine the value of btc during time of payment and time of refund as there will always be debate if the price goes up/down or differs depending on which exchange. So without specific terms it is unreasonable to expect this.
It is simply bullshit to impose your own special refund terms after you agreed to no refunds.
And it makes no sense to attempt to smear a companies reputation through the ftc/whatever just because a product they sold was delayed. (which you agreed to no refunds) Especially when minersource is not at fault here and they have been working hard to make things right.
Btc price went down since when i paid them, if those bullshit accusations you are trying to throw at me are true i would have asked for a lot more than my initial 2 btc back.
It makes plenty of sense that if you operate a business in the UNITED STATES that you adhere to their rules.
I have acknowledged plenty of times that minersource is most likely getting fucked just as hard as any of us. They wanna be the big dogs running their mining equipment business, they can follow the rules then.
Did you even read what i said? Your fucking response is so far off base it is like you lack any ability to comprehend what was said.
And this is why BTC isn't likely to ever make it as a virtual currency. Because everyone wants to slant in the way that benefits them. When Hashfast was talking refunds in dollars those that paid in cheap BTC wanted their BTC back in full and when those that paid BFL and BA etc. in pricey BTC want refunds in dollars now that the price has dropped. It's not a currency, it's a commodity.
The real issue is the conversions. It gets convoluted as shit. Refunds should really only be given, if at all, in the form of payment they were made. It is too damn confusing any other way, and opens the door to people trying to skew things in their favor. It is a rather cut and dry matter in my mind. You get what you paid back. If you gave them 5 bananas then that is what you should get back, 5 bananas. the concept is a little abstract maybe? I don't really think so but why don't people seem to grasp it?
And this is why BTC isn't likely to ever make it as a virtual currency. Because everyone wants to slant in the way that benefits them. When Hashfast was talking refunds in dollars those that paid in cheap BTC wanted their BTC back in full and when those that paid BFL and BA etc. in pricey BTC want refunds in dollars now that the price has dropped. It's not a currency, it's a commodity.
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At least that is what is fair and logical.
It's only fair and logical to you when it means more money for you.
If btc price went up I can guarantee you would be begging for your original btc.
Also people have sued bfl and hashfast for their original btc payment and won.
There is no easy way to determine the value of btc during time of payment and time of refund as there will always be debate if the price goes up/down or differs depending on which exchange. So without specific terms it is unreasonable to expect this.
It is simply bullshit to impose your own special refund terms after you agreed to no refunds.
And it makes no sense to attempt to smear a companies reputation through the ftc/whatever just because a product they sold was delayed. (which you agreed to no refunds) Especially when minersource is not at fault here and they have been working hard to make things right.
Btc price went down since when i paid them, if those bullshit accusations you are trying to throw at me are true i would have asked for a lot more than my initial 2 btc back.
It makes plenty of sense that if you operate a business in the UNITED STATES that you adhere to their rules.
I have acknowledged plenty of times that minersource is most likely getting fucked just as hard as any of us. They wanna be the big dogs running their mining equipment business, they can follow the rules then.
Did you even read what i said? Your fucking response is so far off base it is like you lack any ability to comprehend what was said.
And this is why BTC isn't likely to ever make it as a virtual currency. Because everyone wants to slant in the way that benefits them. When Hashfast was talking refunds in dollars those that paid in cheap BTC wanted their BTC back in full and when those that paid BFL and BA etc. in pricey BTC want refunds in dollars now that the price has dropped. It's not a currency, it's a commodity.
Quote
At least that is what is fair and logical.
It's only fair and logical to you when it means more money for you.
If btc price went up I can guarantee you would be begging for your original btc.
Also people have sued bfl and hashfast for their original btc payment and won.
There is no easy way to determine the value of btc during time of payment and time of refund as there will always be debate if the price goes up/down or differs depending on which exchange. So without specific terms it is unreasonable to expect this.
It is simply bullshit to impose your own special refund terms after you agreed to no refunds.
And it makes no sense to attempt to smear a companies reputation through the ftc/whatever just because a product they sold was delayed. (which you agreed to no refunds) Especially when minersource is not at fault here and they have been working hard to make things right.
Btc price went down since when i paid them, if those bullshit accusations you are trying to throw at me are true i would have asked for a lot more than my initial 2 btc back.
It makes plenty of sense that if you operate a business in the UNITED STATES that you adhere to their rules.
I have acknowledged plenty of times that minersource is most likely getting fucked just as hard as any of us. They wanna be the big dogs running their mining equipment business, they can follow the rules then.
Did you even read what i said? Your fucking response is so far off base it is like you lack any ability to comprehend what was said.
Quote
At least that is what is fair and logical.
It's only fair and logical to you when it means more money for you.
If btc price went up I can guarantee you would be begging for your original btc.
Also people have sued bfl and hashfast for their original btc payment and won.
There is no easy way to determine the value of btc during time of payment and time of refund as there will always be debate if the price goes up/down or differs depending on which exchange. So without specific terms it is unreasonable to expect this.
It is simply bullshit to impose your own special refund terms after you agreed to no refunds.
And it makes no sense to attempt to smear a companies reputation through the ftc/whatever just because a product they sold was delayed. (which you agreed to no refunds) Especially when minersource is not at fault here and they have been working hard to make things right.
For anyone else that needs a refund from Minersource:
I basically had to reach the point of threatening to file a report against them with the FTC and alerting microcenter about it before I could get them to comply. But I will have lost a lot of the value of my Bitcoins. I paid half in cash, half in Bitcoins when the cost was $4800. (2.055btc now is nowhere near $2400), but I wasn't willing to risk staying with Blackarrow anymore, since, IMO, there's no way they can provide proper compensation anymore without going bankrupt.
Minersource refused to entertain the notion of sending me replacement hardware (Dragon, etc) in lieu of a refund, unfortunately, as I would have preferred that.
I basically had to reach the point of threatening to file a report against them with the FTC and alerting microcenter about it before I could get them to comply. But I will have lost a lot of the value of my Bitcoins. I paid half in cash, half in Bitcoins when the cost was $4800. (2.055btc now is nowhere near $2400), but I wasn't willing to risk staying with Blackarrow anymore, since, IMO, there's no way they can provide proper compensation anymore without going bankrupt.
Minersource refused to entertain the notion of sending me replacement hardware (Dragon, etc) in lieu of a refund, unfortunately, as I would have preferred that.
Wait hold on, this is Minersource doing the BTC denominated refunds? Did they make you sign some kind of waiver like the poster several weeks ago described? If so that explains everything.
That's not legal in the United States, Bitcoin is not legal tender in the United States. Nobody can force you to accept settlement of a debt denominated in BTC, it's not legally recognized as a unit of account. Minersource owes you the dollar amount you paid, because in this use case bitcoin is just the medium of exchange. This is very serious and justifies legal action against Minersource.
I would go ahead and file a complaint with the FTC at minimum.
As for filing a complaint, I'll leave that to someone else. I agreed I wouldn't file a complaint if I got my refund - albeit an unfair one, IMO.
I filed a complaint. And i got a refund. Did the complaint help? Not to my knowledge. To me it was one of those things that if enough people file, eventually the ftc will look into it. When MS proves they provided the requested refund the ftc should back off. Minersource refunded me the amount of btc i paid them, which is fair. They should do the same for you, what ever you paid them in btc should get refunded to you.
Then if you agree to accept btc instead of cash, what ever the current value today per btc should be considered, at least to me that makes sense as it would be the same if you purchased the btc your self. In essence you should be able to cash out the btc then for the cash portion you paid out. They can skip all the banking bullshit. Mutually beneficial. so if it was 2400 bucks paid in cash and btc is worth 600 a piece you should get 4 btc for that portion of it. At least that is what is fair and logical.
Well I decided that if I do not have a tracking number by next Friday I unfortunately have to insist upon a refund. I do not want to put any kind of pressure on Bobsag, and I would feel really bad cause I am sure this has been a headache for him, but I have to take my own interests into heart. I warned a while back about getting refunds while they were still happening or you would miss the train, I would say this would be another last chance opportunity.
I have come to the conclusion, that after next Friday with 2x compensation it would be too much of a hassle just to break even with these that it is not worth it. This is my basis behind the above claim. I am sorry to put you into a corner like this Bobsag, but I cannot take any more chances with these guys.
I have come to the conclusion, that after next Friday with 2x compensation it would be too much of a hassle just to break even with these that it is not worth it. This is my basis behind the above claim. I am sorry to put you into a corner like this Bobsag, but I cannot take any more chances with these guys.
I'm with you on this. I'm no longer willing to hear the "next week" excuse again. Bobsag said he'll have the shipment by the end of the week, we'll see.
It's hard to believe anything that BA says anymore. How about some videos of production and shipping? This will ease some concerns. Also,a week between updates is too long.
I don't know if it's an ego thing or what. I mean not giving out info. It's like "I'll run my business how I want to, nobody will tell me how it should be run." You can run it like you want, but it won't be around for long.
I don't know if it's an ego thing or what. I mean not giving out info. It's like "I'll run my business how I want to, nobody will tell me how it should be run." You can run it like you want, but it won't be around for long.
Are you sure?
Do you have this information direct from BA?
Thanks for information.
I think the so called backplane or some problems may be excuse...maybe they are mining bitcoins using our X3 hash modules .....
Yup, and money acquired from sold bitcoins goes to his account in Virgin Islands haha :-)
Haha bitfury has already filled all the boxes out there
maybe Yalta is a good tax haven now 
Well I decided that if I do not have a tracking number by next Friday I unfortunately have to insist upon a refund. I do not want to put any kind of pressure on Bobsag, and I would feel really bad cause I am sure this has been a headache for him, but I have to take my own interests into heart. I warned a while back about getting refunds while they were still happening or you would miss the train, I would say this would be another last chance opportunity.
I have come to the conclusion, that after next Friday with 2x compensation it would be too much of a hassle just to break even with these that it is not worth it. This is my basis behind the above claim. I am sorry to put you into a corner like this Bobsag, but I cannot take any more chances with these guys.
I have come to the conclusion, that after next Friday with 2x compensation it would be too much of a hassle just to break even with these that it is not worth it. This is my basis behind the above claim. I am sorry to put you into a corner like this Bobsag, but I cannot take any more chances with these guys.
That's an intelligent thing to do. I requested my refund a month ago. Unfortunatelly, they said they are not willing to process any refunds until they ship first X3. Also they do not reply to e-mails and phone calls so there is little chance we will get our refunds soon, if ever :-)
I think the so called backplane or some problems may be excuse...maybe they are mining bitcoins using our X3 hash modules .....
Yup, and money acquired from sold bitcoins goes to his account in Virgin Islands haha :-)
the X3's will be delivered after the next difficulty change
cause they're mining ... with our chips
maybe not with the complete X3 but with something like that
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=621601.20
cause they're mining ... with our chips
maybe not with the complete X3 but with something like that
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=621601.20
if they are mining with our X-3s, then they are acting dishonest.
Of course they are, we already know they mine with our X1s:
the X3's will be delivered after the next difficulty change
cause they're mining ... with our chips
maybe not with the complete X3 but with something like that
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=621601.20
cause they're mining ... with our chips
maybe not with the complete X3 but with something like that
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=621601.20
if they are mining with our X-3s, then they are acting dishonest.
I think the so called backplane or some problems may be excuse...maybe they are mining bitcoins using our X3 hash modules .....
That's a given. If anyone thinks they're only hashing on a testnet is more delusional than the rest of us.
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