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Topic: Block Erupter Prisma (>=1.4 T/device, 0.75-0.78 W/G, <1 BTC/T, October Shipping) - page 34. (Read 108032 times)

hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
ffs roadstress and mabsark can you just bury the axe? let it be guys. bitcoin is magic. Smiley

Hard to do it with an ongoing bet...

Bitcoin is magic internet money!

well good for you the bet is on now plz stfu until it resolves.

Why should I stfu and not you?

Because you two are being complete bitches and cluttering AM's thread with BULLSHIT? Because you alone have 12 posts of the 70 posts in this thread yet you have contributed nothing? Because nobody really wants to hear more of your rambling? Because you sound like children measuring their tiny peckers?

The list goes on.
Here you go guys, discuss all you want

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/current-miner-price-comparisonupdated-weekly-792766
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
ffs roadstress and mabsark can you just bury the axe? let it be guys. bitcoin is magic. Smiley

Hard to do it with an ongoing bet...

Bitcoin is magic internet money!
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
ffs roadstress and mabsark can you just bury the axe? let it be guys. bitcoin is magic. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Right. Assuming the Prismas' are $1500 cheaper and you'll mine ~$800 before the SP35 ships (start mining Oct 15th, end mining Nov 21st, 10c/kWh, 15% inc. per jump with a 5% lowering per jump), that gives you $2300 in hand with the Prismas vs the SP35.
From Nov 21st onward the difference in power is 11kW vs 7kW, so 4kW. There's 8760 hours in a year, so at 10c/kWhr it would take 2.62 years for the cost of powering the units to make up for the price differential.
At 15c/kWh, the numbers go down to 1.4 years of running before the difference in price is made up.
At 20c/kWh, don't bother. At the current price and next estimated difficulty (~35B), the network only has to increase 50% in size before you're at breakeven for power with $400/BTC which it very likely will be by the time you get your Prismas.

I got slightly different numbers.

10 AM prismas = ~$7000/15TH
2.5 SP35 = $10,500/15TH

According to https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator at 15% increase the AM Prismas will earn about 4btc before SP35 begins shipping. (if they start mining on November 1st)

So the $3500 cost difference + $1500 mined means the SP35 needs to recover $5000 in electricity savings to be a better deal.

2.5 sp35 is 8.75kw so it would save 2.25kw.

At $0.05/kwh the 2.5 sp35's would save $2.7/day and at that rate it would take more than 5 years to make up for the price difference.
In my numbers the AM Prismas (at 14TH/s) would earn 4.4BTC between Oct 15th (~1/3 of the way through their delivery window, coincidentally also an estimated diff change) and Nov 21st (1/3 of the way through the SP35 late November delivery window, also an estimated difficulty change). However, in those 37 days the Prismas would burn 11kW*24hrs*37days= 9768kWh of electricity, which you have to account for. At the 10c per kWh I was using, that's almost $1000 of electricity you need to pay for. Even at 5c, it's $500.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1004
Re: the $500/BTC, we're all hoping but it seems rather sketchy to base the numbers on that since you can't order an SP35 using $500/BTC without a time machine.

That was actually a mistake, the fixed BTC price was only meant to apply to mining income. The initial purchase cost is meant to use the actual current BTC value. I'll fix that now, but I'll keep the $1800 for PSUs until more info becomes available.

I'll fix that now.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Right. Assuming the Prismas' are $1500 cheaper and you'll mine ~$800 before the SP35 ships (start mining Oct 15th, end mining Nov 21st, 10c/kWh, 15% inc. per jump with a 5% lowering per jump), that gives you $2300 in hand with the Prismas vs the SP35.
From Nov 21st onward the difference in power is 11kW vs 7kW, so 4kW. There's 8760 hours in a year, so at 10c/kWhr it would take 2.62 years for the cost of powering the units to make up for the price differential.
At 15c/kWh, the numbers go down to 1.4 years of running before the difference in price is made up.
At 20c/kWh, don't bother. At the current price and next estimated difficulty (~35B), the network only has to increase 50% in size before you're at breakeven for power with $400/BTC which it very likely will be by the time you get your Prismas.

There is a small error on your post. The Prismas are not $1500 cheaper than 2xSP35. In my last post I wanted to say $1500 cheaper than Mabsark's price. The Prismas are only ~700$ cheaper than the 2xSP35 and with the ~$800 miner before SP35 ships that leaves only $1500 in hand which changes your calculations a bit.

But I appreciate your projection and I find it more honest than the other ones posted here. Thumbs up!

For crying out loud, you're not the brightest bulb are you? The conditions are not meant to be realistic, they're meant to remove all the variability so you can compare miners without having to guess at values. This provides you with base values which can then be modified based on your estimations of things like difficulty change.

Miners can't remove any variable when mining with equipment so your projection is useless. Why not use 10k$/BTC instead? It's not realistic, but it can definitely remove any discussion about ROI too. Mining IS a guessing game, but since you are not a miner you don't know that while being a shareholder all you need to focus is on pumping your company's products.

Given a 1 month head start for the Prismas in which they made 1,764 USD (after power costs), how long would it take SP35s to overtake the Prisma in total mining profits? Show you're working as well.

Please read MrTeal's above projection. AM Prismas will NOT mine $1,764 USD in their first month. That is a pure bullshit straight lie to all customers reading it coming straight from an AM shareholder.


I got slightly different numbers.

10 AM prismas = ~$7000/15TH
2.5 SP35 = $10,500/15TH

It seems that all AM shareholders like to be in a fantasy world instead of a real world. Having a 1/2 SP35 miner is impossible! Also 10 AM Prismas will NOT mine $1,500 in their first month! I am willing to bet 0.2 BTC on that! Care to take the bet and have someone who will buy prove it?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
To be fair to RoadStress, I used $180 PSUs in my calculations and the price of bitcoin is fixed at 500 USD/BTC. Also, 2000W wouldn't be enough to run 2 Prismas. I don't know whether those server PSUs have the necessary PCIe cables so I was hesitant to use them in the calculations.

Can you provide some links to those products (DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables) so people will know what to look for?


Why not use 400 USD/BTC as it is right now? Is your magic crystal ball letting you know that in 1 month the exchange rate will rise?

Ah, I see. Those are extremely poor numbers. The Prismas are a hair under $6000 right now, so that's factoring in $3250 for 10kW of power supply which is ridiculous. Even if you don't want to mess with server PSUs, you could go buy 10 well reviewed gold ATX supplies (RM1000/Capstone 1000M) for $1500 shipped from Newegg (plus tax, if you're unlucky).

Ok, with the updated numbers you will have an advantage of $1500 for all lifetime mining profits for buying AM Prismas vs 2xSP35 at the cost of needing a bigger electricity circuit.

Right. Assuming the Prismas' are $1500 cheaper and you'll mine ~$800 before the SP35 ships (start mining Oct 15th, end mining Nov 21st, 10c/kWh, 15% inc. per jump with a 5% lowering per jump), that gives you $2300 in hand with the Prismas vs the SP35.
From Nov 21st onward the difference in power is 11kW vs 7kW, so 4kW. There's 8760 hours in a year, so at 10c/kWhr it would take 2.62 years for the cost of powering the units to make up for the price differential.
At 15c/kWh, the numbers go down to 1.4 years of running before the difference in price is made up.
At 20c/kWh, don't bother. At the current price and next estimated difficulty (~35B), the network only has to increase 50% in size before you're at breakeven for power with $400/BTC which it very likely will be by the time you get your Prismas.

I got slightly different numbers.

10 AM prismas = ~$7000/15TH
2.5 SP35 = $10,500/15TH

According to https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator at 15% increase the AM Prismas will earn about 4btc before SP35 begins shipping. (if they start mining on November 1st)

So the $3500 cost difference + $1500 mined means the SP35 needs to recover $5000 in electricity savings to be a better deal.

2.5 sp35 is 8.75kw so it would save 2.25kw.

At $0.05/kwh the 2.5 sp35's would save $2.7/day and at that rate it would take more than 5 years to make up for the price difference.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1004
Static conditions, that will never apply. Difficulty will jump in 3 days and there is no immediate mining with the Prismas. So what you presented is only in your fantasy. It can't apply to the real world. So while they are not false, they are not applicable either. It's just an useless projection.

For crying out loud, you're not the brightest bulb are you? The conditions are not meant to be realistic, they're meant to remove all the variability so you can compare miners without having to guess at values. This provides you with base values which can then be modified based on your estimations of things like difficulty change.

What length of time are you looking for? I just gave you my projection for the first 2 months of mining.

Given a 1 month head start for the Prismas in which they made 1,764 USD (after power costs), how long would it take SP35s to overtake the Prisma in total mining profits? Show you're working as well.

After 60 days of mining, the 2 x SP35s would have made 4.6 * 12 * 60 = 3,312 USD = SPP. Because the Prisma set started mining 1 month earlier, it would have been mining for 3 months and made 4.2 * 14 * 90 = 5,292 USD = AMP.

How many days will it take for the condition SPP > AMP to be true?

Hint: If you use the numbers above, the gap will only widen because 4.6 * 12 < 4.2 * 14.

legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
To be fair to RoadStress, I used $180 PSUs in my calculations and the price of bitcoin is fixed at 500 USD/BTC. Also, 2000W wouldn't be enough to run 2 Prismas. I don't know whether those server PSUs have the necessary PCIe cables so I was hesitant to use them in the calculations.

Can you provide some links to those products (DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables) so people will know what to look for?


Why not use 400 USD/BTC as it is right now? Is your magic crystal ball letting you know that in 1 month the exchange rate will rise?

Ah, I see. Those are extremely poor numbers. The Prismas are a hair under $6000 right now, so that's factoring in $3250 for 10kW of power supply which is ridiculous. Even if you don't want to mess with server PSUs, you could go buy 10 well reviewed gold ATX supplies (RM1000/Capstone 1000M) for $1500 shipped from Newegg (plus tax, if you're unlucky).

Ok, with the updated numbers you will have an advantage of $1500 for all lifetime mining profits for buying AM Prismas vs 2xSP35 at the cost of needing a bigger electricity circuit.

Right. Assuming the Prismas' are $1500 cheaper and you'll mine ~$800 before the SP35 ships (start mining Oct 15th, end mining Nov 21st, 10c/kWh, 15% inc. per jump with a 5% lowering per jump), that gives you $2300 in hand with the Prismas vs the SP35.
From Nov 21st onward the difference in power is 11kW vs 7kW, so 4kW. There's 8760 hours in a year, so at 10c/kWhr it would take 2.62 years for the cost of powering the units to make up for the price differential.
At 15c/kWh, the numbers go down to 1.4 years of running before the difference in price is made up.
At 20c/kWh, don't bother. At the current price and next estimated difficulty (~35B), the network only has to increase 50% in size before you're at breakeven for power with $400/BTC which it very likely will be by the time you get your Prismas.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
Have you tried asking anyone in washington?

So all miners are from Washington now? Or all AM customers are from there? What about the rest of the miners?

Just because many people in Washington have access to <$0.05/kwh electricity, doesn't mean nobody else does.

Quote
Well following your statement nobody should buy AM Prismas if they have an electricity cost of over 0.05/kWh so why bother showing you different miners?

Because even at $0.05/kwh it will not be easy to turn a profit.

Why can't you show us a scenario where the sp35 is more profitable?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
To be fair to RoadStress, I used $180 PSUs in my calculations and the price of bitcoin is fixed at 500 USD/BTC. Also, 2000W wouldn't be enough to run 2 Prismas. I don't know whether those server PSUs have the necessary PCIe cables so I was hesitant to use them in the calculations.

Can you provide some links to those products (DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables) so people will know what to look for?


Why not use 400 USD/BTC as it is right now? Is your magic crystal ball letting you know that in 1 month the exchange rate will rise?

Ah, I see. Those are extremely poor numbers. The Prismas are a hair under $6000 right now, so that's factoring in $3250 for 10kW of power supply which is ridiculous. Even if you don't want to mess with server PSUs, you could go buy 10 well reviewed gold ATX supplies (RM1000/Capstone 1000M) for $1500 shipped from Newegg (plus tax, if you're unlucky).

Ok, with the updated numbers you will have an advantage of $1500 for all lifetime mining profits for buying AM Prismas vs 2xSP35 at the cost of needing a bigger electricity circuit.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
How do you figure the SP35s are cheaper? The price on 10 Prismas is 14.9BTC or 5960. To that you need to add 5*($45+$60+$3.50*8 + $10) for a DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables/shipping = $665
That's $6625 for 10 Prismas, which unless the SP35's have had a large price drop recently is still cheaper than two of those.

To be fair to RoadStress, I used $180 PSUs in my calculations and the price of bitcoin is fixed at 500 USD/BTC. Also, 2000W wouldn't be enough to run 2 Prismas. I don't know whether those server PSUs have the necessary PCIe cables so I was hesitant to use them in the calculations.

Can you provide some links to those products (DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables) so people will know what to look for?
Sidehack sells breakout boards and cables for the price listed. Not sure if he has stock now, but it's not like you're getting these immediately anyway. The PSUs are all over eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-24R2711-BladeCenter-2000W-Power-Supply-DPS-2000BB-24R2710-/311083483747?pt=US_Server_Power_Supplies&hash=item486e054263
2000W would be enough to run two Prismas. They've said 0.67J/GH board wise, which is about [email protected]/s. It's running them full out, but they will handle that without issue. I believe Sidehack has load tested them continuously @ 200A.

Re: the $500/BTC, we're all hoping but it seems rather sketchy to base the numbers on that since you can't order an SP35 using $500/BTC without a time machine.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
How do you figure the SP35s are cheaper? The price on 10 Prismas is 14.9BTC or 5960. To that you need to add 5*($45+$60+$3.50*8 + $10) for a DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables/shipping = $665
That's $6625 for 10 Prismas, which unless the SP35's have had a large price drop recently is still cheaper than two of those.

I used the numbers AM shareholder Mabsark posted here:
SP35 costs 4,035 USD inc. PSU + shipping for 6 Th/s at 3.5kW, it would take 147 days to break even,
10 x AM Prisma costs 9,250 USD inc. PSUs + shipping for 14 Th/s at 10.5 kW, it would take 158 days to break even, and
S3+ B9 costs 320 USD inc. PSU + shipping for 453 Gh/s at 355W, it would take 173 days to break even.
Ah, I see. Those are extremely poor numbers. The Prismas are a hair under $6000 right now, so that's factoring in $3250 for 10kW of power supply which is ridiculous. Even if you don't want to mess with server PSUs, you could go buy 10 well reviewed gold ATX supplies (RM1000/Capstone 1000M) for $1500 shipped from Newegg (plus tax, if you're unlucky).
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1004
How do you figure the SP35s are cheaper? The price on 10 Prismas is 14.9BTC or 5960. To that you need to add 5*($45+$60+$3.50*8 + $10) for a DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables/shipping = $665
That's $6625 for 10 Prismas, which unless the SP35's have had a large price drop recently is still cheaper than two of those.

To be fair to RoadStress, I used $180 PSUs in my calculations and the price of bitcoin is fixed at 500 USD/BTC. Also, 2000W wouldn't be enough to run 2 Prismas. I don't know whether those server PSUs have the necessary PCIe cables so I was hesitant to use them in the calculations.

Can you provide some links to those products (DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables) so people will know what to look for?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Are you really as stupid as you sound? They're not false at all. They are the static conditions I chose and the values are irrelevant. It is not meant to be and does not even try to be an accurate representation of the bitcoin network and mining conditions. All it simply does is allow you to compare the different miners on a equal footing without having to guess at the different variables.

Also, what biased projections are those? The ones that show the SP35 making the most mining profit per TH per day and reaching break-even the quickest (given that all miner start mining immediately)?  Roll Eyes


Static conditions, that will never apply. Difficulty will jump in 3 days and there is no immediate mining with the Prismas. So what you presented is only in your fantasy. It can't apply to the real world. So while they are not false, they are not applicable either. It's just an useless projection.

Sure. Under static conditions (since you like to use it) 2xSP35 will not overtake Prisma in monthly mining profits, but it will be the same as 10xAM Prisma miners. The 2xSP35 owner will pay less for them and start mining one month later. The 10xAM Prisma owner will start mining 1 month earlier, but in that one month of head start he will only regain the difference of price compared to the 2xSP35 miners (~1200$). After the first month both solutions will have the same profit per month, except that the AM Prisma owner will need a bigger electricity circuit than the SP35 owner.

That is not an answer to the question I asked. The answer I'm looking for a specific length of time. If you are too stupid to do basic maths, just say so. If not, provide the answer with your working out.

What length of time are you looking for? I just gave you my projection for the first 2 months of mining.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Have you tried asking anyone in washington?

So all miners are from Washington now? Or all AM customers are from there? What about the rest of the miners?

I wouldn't recommend mining to anyone that pays more than $0.05/kwh.

It doesn't matter what variables I use because however you look at it, it beats everything else available.

Instead of arguing whether this will ROI or not (which is entirely pointless speculation) how about showing us a miner that has a better chance?

Well following your statement nobody should buy AM Prismas if they have an electricity cost of over 0.05/kWh so why bother showing you different miners?



How do you figure the SP35s are cheaper? The price on 10 Prismas is 14.9BTC or 5960. To that you need to add 5*($45+$60+$3.50*8 + $10) for a DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables/shipping = $665
That's $6625 for 10 Prismas, which unless the SP35's have had a large price drop recently is still cheaper than two of those.

I used the numbers AM shareholder Mabsark posted here:
SP35 costs 4,035 USD inc. PSU + shipping for 6 Th/s at 3.5kW, it would take 147 days to break even,
10 x AM Prisma costs 9,250 USD inc. PSUs + shipping for 14 Th/s at 10.5 kW, it would take 158 days to break even, and
S3+ B9 costs 320 USD inc. PSU + shipping for 453 Gh/s at 355W, it would take 173 days to break even.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1004
All of the highlighted statements are false. The conditions aren't static and there is no immediate mining start. Instead of throwing with useless and fictional numbers like $1,764 USD  why not use your energy for some realistic projections. By the time the Prisma miners will ship difficulty will jump 2 times. The next jump is in just 3 days and it's projected to ~19%. For the sake of the argument let's say the next one will be ~15%. That means that the $1,764 will transform to a merely $1,200 USD. 

I hope that everyone else notices jimmothy's and your biased projections as AM shareholders!

Are you really as stupid as you sound? They're not false at all. They are the static conditions I chose and the values are irrelevant. It is not meant to be and does not even try to be an accurate representation of the bitcoin network and mining conditions. All it simply does is allow you to compare the different miners on a equal footing without having to guess at the different variables.

Also, what biased projections are those? The ones that show the SP35 making the most mining profit per TH per day and reaching break-even the quickest (given that all miner start mining immediately)?  Roll Eyes
 
Sure. Under static conditions (since you like to use it) 2xSP35 will not overtake Prisma in monthly mining profits, but it will be the same as 10xAM Prisma miners. The 2xSP35 owner will pay less for them and start mining one month later. The 10xAM Prisma owner will start mining 1 month earlier, but in that one month of head start he will only regain the difference of price compared to the 2xSP35 miners (~1200$). After the first month both solutions will have the same profit per month, except that the AM Prisma owner will need a bigger electricity circuit than the SP35 owner.

That is not an answer to the question I asked. The answer I'm looking for a specific length of time. If you are too stupid to do basic maths, just say so. If not, provide the answer with your working out.

As for your 0.1 BTC I will reply you in the dedicated thread, no need to be so desperate.

I don't expect the BTC but that doesn't change the fact that you said you would give me it. Like I've said repeatedly, you're a liar.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Based on static conditions - 300 Ph/s network hash rate, 0.1 USD/kWh, $500 USD/BTC and immediate mining start, AM's new Prisma overtakes the S3+ and closes the gap on the SP35:

I'll leave you to your own estimations with regards to changes in BTC price, changes in difficulty and pre-order waiting times but I will remind you that Prismas will be shipping a full month at least before SP35s and there's no availability date regarding S3+ B10s or S4s. A full Prisma set would make 1,764 USD (after power costs) in 30 days under the static conditions.

All of the highlighted statements are false. The conditions aren't static and there is no immediate mining start. Instead of throwing with useless and fictional numbers like $1,764 USD  why not use your energy for some realistic projections. By the time the Prisma miners will ship difficulty will jump 2 times. The next jump is in just 3 days and it's projected to ~19%. For the sake of the argument let's say the next one will be ~15%. That means that the $1,764 will transform to a merely $1,200 USD. 

I hope that everyone else notices jimmothy's and your biased projections as AM shareholders!

Here's a question for you RoadStress. Given the 1 month head start for the Prisma, how long would it take for the SP35 to overtake the Prisma in total mining profits? Show you're working as well. Oh yeah, and where's that 0.1 BTC you said you were going to send me.  Cheesy

Sure. Under static conditions (since you like to use it) 2xSP35 will not overtake Prisma in monthly mining profits, but it will be the same as 10xAM Prisma miners. The 2xSP35 owner will pay less for them and start mining one month later. The 10xAM Prisma owner will start mining 1 month earlier, but in that one month of head start he will only regain the difference of price compared to the 2xSP35 miners (~1200$). After the first month both solutions will have the same profit per month, except that the AM Prisma owner will need a bigger electricity circuit than the SP35 owner.

As for your 0.1 BTC I will reply you in the dedicated thread, no need to be so desperate.

How do you figure the SP35s are cheaper? The price on 10 Prismas is 14.9BTC or 5960. To that you need to add 5*($45+$60+$3.50*8 + $10) for a DPS-2000BB/breakout/cables/shipping = $665
That's $6625 for 10 Prismas, which unless the SP35's have had a large price drop recently is still cheaper than two of those.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
Please show me the miners who are paying 0.05$/kWh!

Have you tried asking anyone in washington?

If you use your miner for space heating you can also cut down electricity costs.

Quote
Also would you be so kind to explain why are you making a projection with such a low electricity cost for AM miners, while when making projections for competition you use higher electricity prices:

Are you talking about when I compared the SP30's that you advertised as being profitable even with $0.1/kwh hosting?

I wouldn't recommend mining to anyone that pays more than $0.05/kwh.

Quote
I do understand that you are biased, but at least try to make the projections the same for everyone, not giving an advantage to AM miners.

It doesn't matter what variables I use because however you look at it, it beats everything else available.

Instead of arguing whether this will ROI or not (which is entirely pointless speculation) how about showing us a miner that has a better chance?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
why bother pay 14.9 BTC for these when they can only produce like 9-10 BTC ?

So I take it you have a magic crystal ball too?

Mine says these can easily break even with cheap electricity.

lol, you are a joke

even with free electricity they won't ROI.remember they will start shipping in at least 2 weeks from now, you need to pay import tax in your country,and you also have to buy PSUs, cables etc.
you have all these for free ?

let's run a small simulation assuming everything will be in our favor, the small miner:



-only 15 % diff increase (which we all know will be much higher)
-14 TH/S
-free electricity

you will still be in a negative -7.7 BTC in more than 1 year from now on.after 1 year 14 th/s will be worthless


15% constant diff increase? 3'000 G difficulty in Oct 2015? Or 21'000 PH?
Let's take that by that time mining hardware will use 0.5 kWh/TH, and electricity at $0.1/kWh ...
Bitcoin has to be valued at $6000 just to cover this running costs. Nice Wink

That or if bitcoin stays at $385 like his totally realistic predictions suggest it would mean that all the hardware powering the network would have to be at least 0.025 w/gh if they expect 50% of daily revenue to be profit. (at $0.05/kwh)

I'm not entirely convinced we will see hardware 200 times more efficient than current gen hardware in only a year.
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