Topic: ★ BTC-RAFFLE.COM ★▐ Provably Fair ▐ Referral System ▐ Player VS Player ▐ - page 6. (Read 4335 times)

I have explained over and over to you why you are wrong, i'm not playing your little troll games anymore.

No, you haven't.

Look at your 7 falses, and see if you can justify them.

You asked me to prove your site wasn't provably fair. I broke it down into 7 steps so you could understand. You just wrote "false" next to each of them, when I'm sure even you could understand at least some of them if you tried your hardest.

You're clearly trolling, not me.

I have explained over and over to you why you are wrong, i'm not playing your little troll games anymore.

I am encouraging him to make it better, but he refuses to understand what is wrong with it.

His site has approximately zero volume. It isn't in competition with Just-Dice at all. I have no problem with competition. My problem is with deception. OP is lying about his site being provably fair. If he thinks he's able to get away with that without me pointing it out, he's mistaken.

OK, let me stop you there.

If you don't think it is possible to generate a transaction without broadcasting it then you really have no idea how Bitcoin works.

You never heard of offline wallets? Armory? Paper wallets?

This alone proves to me that you either don't have a clue what you are talking about or are deliberately being deceptive.

I'll leave you appropriate feedback as soon as I finish this post.


So you're saying each time someone bets, you have 10 seconds to figure out which of your pre-generated transactions would make you win? That's about a thousand times longer than you need.


Magic, luck, or cheating. Any of those 3 would work.


I don't think you are a super computer. I think you're probably either a child, an idiot, or a scammer. It's hard to say which. Possibly all three I guess.

You know exactly when the game is ending: 10 seconds after the last bet.
You know which transaction will let you win: the one which selects a ticket you bought.
You know how to push a transaction to blockchain.info in less than a second and pick it.


Try making some arguments against me. Writing "false" after my seven valid statements just makes you look silly.


Wow, thanks for that. You're a lot more patient with this guy than I am. You actually made valid arguments supporting all seven of my statements, even though he probably didn't even read them.


True that.


Well, it has to be accepted by blockchain.info. I think they reject transactions with too-low fees. I'm not sure exactly what their rules are though, so maybe you could find a way of cheating for free. Either way if the 0.0001 BTC fee is the only thing stopping people from cheating I hardly think we can call it 'provably fair'.


I know you're joking, but do you think mr. raffle is going to have any idea?


How about a dance off? The one with the freshest moves is right.


I wanted to make sure he understood how his site wasn't provably fair and give him a chance to fix it before leaving appropriate feedback.

I don't want him to be able to claim that I left it just because I ran a competing site.

But as you can see above, he's just trolling. He won't respond to any technical points, either because he can't or because he is willfully ignoring them.

So now that it's clear that he doesn't want to fix his site I'll leave him the feedback and move on.


I'm not sure even that is strong enough.

I can't wait until they invent super-duper impregnable I-can't-believe-it's-not-rigged undeniable provable fair. With extra timestamps proving we picked a random transaction within 2 seconds of the end of the game to decide the winner. For fuck sake.

I bet they're all freaking out right now because they finally realized that we aren't shooting dice for clams anymore.  What good is something thats proveably fair if anyone can simply deny it? 

Undeniable Provable Fair or GTFO

Yeah its clear they are just here to blow smoke in a attempt to make us look bad, i'm done playing their little troll games.

  I almost fell of the chair laughing

Dooglus is now the bad guy  he doesn't own a raffle site and I admit that I have no clue of the provably stuff you are talking about but I know that Dooglus Ryan and NLNico are real provably fair experts and now even a new one as it looks like namely @jlfvr

@jlfvr who are you? you are a newbie and it looks you are also a provably fair expert.

@Dooglus & @jlfvr why don't you leave this guy alone with his shitty behavior? let him learn the hard way and also his customers if they will not listen to your warnings

I believe the inconsistency in the timestamp is only a mistake. I agree with twitchyseal to Dooglus is just trying to bully the guide who is a competitor of him also a newbie which is quite unfair. The raffle idea is brilliant and we should encourage him to improve and make it better instead of attacking him like that

Dooglus is obviously just jealous of OPs success and wishes he thought of the raffle idea first so he wouldnt be stuck with a silly clam dice site.

OP you should challenge all these idiots to some sort of coding/what is provably fair battle , winner gets the others site.  All you need is a judge /escrow and a challenge.

I care about Bitcoin gambling and its community and one could also argue that one has a moral obligation to expose potentially fraudulent deception. As a result I have no problem putting some effort into my posts. You on the other hand have ignored nearly all of the well-thought-out and detailed explanations of why your game is not provably fair, instead opting to stick your head in the sand and to resort to personal attacks.

Arguing with you is most likely futile, which I am well aware of, but I hope that potential players will be able to form an educated opinion on you and your site and avoid your game when they read this thread.



At the time of this writing it is Mon, 04 Jan 2016 06:27 GMT-0800 so your game could not have even occurred yet. I'll assume that is just a bug or a mistake and that the time you meant is 12:09:55 GMT instead.

Again, Bitcoin transactions do not have timestamps. It is impossible to determine when a received Bitcoin transaction was generated. What Blockchain.info is showing you is the time they received the transaction. This time can vary wildly from node to node. Take a look at the following table, which shows when different blockchain explorers received the transaction in question:


Notice that Biteasy received the transaction significantly earlier than Blockchain.info at 12:09:13, whereas BitPay and CoinPrism did not receive the transaction at all until it was included in the block at 12:21:14.

Even if you assume that Blockchain.info is an authoritative source of transaction timestamps (which they are not), there is no way for players to verify that you picked the last transaction before the end of the round or even that the transactions received were not generated by yourself in order to ensure a certain result.

The following three transactions were received by Blockchain.info at Mon, 04 Jan 2016 12:09:53 GMT:

• f52420afebdf771a39f8ee27b7600ed2217e0067842b1ead38b1e0b9ba8be77d
• 1cdcc435be42f8c1819d0ad344d79453770c68f7aab53f3fa8d1de2e63635022
• 880cf804f70a6a8064ba194dfc983fd733cd04a88727eec3ab3c148d8048da6e

What makes any of them more valid than the next? How are players to verify that the house did not pick the one which benefits it the most?

Also, if the game ended at 12:09:55, why did you use a transaction that was received at 12:09:53, rather than one of the two transactions (1, 2) that were received at precisely 12:09:55? And how can players verify that you did not broadcast the transaction you picked in order to ensure a win for a player you control?

The answer is that the deciding transaction and therefore the winning player may as well be chosen arbitrarily by the house. Your game is not provably fair. In fact it is worse than the previous one because now players have the opportunity to cheat other players if the house isn't already cheating.


You claim that it is not possible to generate transactions and calculate their ID without broadcasting them and that it is not possible to calculate a game's result using the last transaction's hash and the pot size, despite posting a code snippet that does just that yourself (granted, you seem to have only copied and adopted it from this thread rather than writing your own). It is safe to say that I have a better understanding of your "provably fair" system than you have yourself.

Feel free to address all of the points I have brought up this time. I doubt you will.

I first want to say i am very impressed on how much time you just spent attempting to make our undeniable provable fair system look any different than it is.

You are a highly skilled troll but the end of the day you are still just a troll. People can see you are 100% lying.

Lets take this last games hash


Mon Jan 04 2016 12:09:55 GMT-0800
 has won with 0.00080000 btc, had a winning chance of 88.89% and made 0.00009899 btc of profit.
LUCKY NUMBER: 1747

HASH: 1cdcc435be42f8c1819d0ad344d79453770c68f7aab53f3fa8d1de2e63635022

TOTAL POT: 90000 satoshi


now lets take that hash over to blockchain

Do you see this?
https://blockchain.info/tx/1cdcc435be42f8c1819d0ad344d79453770c68f7aab53f3fa8d1de2e63635022

Can you see the time stamp?
2016-01-04 12:09:53

Can you see the time stamp of the game?
Mon Jan 04 2016 12:09:55 GMT-0800


Now do you understand how the provably fair works?

Or are you going to continue to troll?

It is even worse than that: Since unconfirmed transactions are used to calculate each game's outcome, any valid transaction can be broadcast even if it has no chance of ever being confirmed. This effectively makes the attack free provided one has enough dust spread over a sufficient number of addresses.

Why do you believe this is not possible? How do you think cold wallets and offline signing work?

Here is a transaction that has not been broadcast in hex form:


In a real attack we would generate many more, for example 100, instead of just one.

---

The transaction ID of the above transaction is fa3c30c7821cdff2b191468bd5e9314f82d21d8dd27bc5e4548fcf4c512a2cb5. Note that it remains not broadcast yet we have just calculated its transaction ID. We can easily calculate the transaction ID for all of the unbroadcast transactions we generated in the previous step.

---

You do not know how to calculate the winning ticket on your own site? The necessary code was given by yourself in the first post in this thread and on your site's FAQ.

All we have to do is input the hash of the transaction we just generated—but still have not broadcast—and the total number of satoshi (let us assume 60.000 satoshi for example) in the pot into the LuckyNumberGenerator function:

---

Let's assume we want the player with the tickets from 6668 to 8334 to win. The previous code example can easily be expanded upon to find all the winning transactions among the one:


Because tickets 6668 through 8334 are 16.66 % of all tickets, we can expect approximately 16 of our 100 pregenerated transactions to cause us to win.

---

Transactions can absolutely propagate in less than a second, especially to a well-connected node like blockchain.info. Because cheating in the manner I am describing is possible even with longer propagation times as long as they are somewhat predictable I will not argue this point, however.

---

The order in which you saw the last transactions is completely meaningless as another node (one of your players trying to verify the fairness of your game, for example) might receive the same transactions in a completely different order than blockchain.info. As transactions do not have timestamps it is not possible to verify that the house did not pick a more favourable transaction that arrived at roughly the same time—although not last.

And even if transactions did have timestamps (again: they do not) it would be easy for an attacker to simply send several winning transactions to blockchain.info right before the winning ticket is chosen.

If you know the winner will be chosen in 10 seconds you can simply start broadcasting one of the 16 winning transactions we generated earlier every tenth of a second starting in 9 seconds. This virtually guarantees that the ticket you want is the winner.

---

Another player joining before the winner is chosen is not a problem as you now have an additional 10 seconds to start your calculations anew.


Neither luck nor magic have anything to do with this. Any run of the mill computer can make these calculations in the required time frame (10 seconds). In fact, I'm confident my mobile phone could do it.

If you cannot understand this simple concept you have no business running a Bitcoin gambling site.

I just joined the chat contest and won $0.08 (by replying twice in the chat box). I have been paid as well and am happy to be a part of this chat contest. The prize one can win is between $0.02-$1.

1) you can generate transactions without broadcasting them
Answer False
2) you can check the txid of those transactions before you broadcast them
Answer False
3) once you know the number of satoshis bet, you can figure out which ticket would win for each transaction
Answer False
4) so you can find out which of your 100 pregenerated transactions would make you win if it was picked
Answer False
5) it takes less than a second to get a transaction picked up by blockchain.info
Answer False
6) you have no way of proving which was the last transaction you saw on blockchain.info after the 30 seconds is up
Answer False
7) you can pick any transaction that was shown on blockchain.info in the relevant second
Answer False


Now let me try once again to explain in layman's terms for you, we cannot predict when the last second will be, as when each person joins the game it resets back to 10 seconds.

Only with magic can we be so lucky to have the site use said transaction.

This also is all happening within seconds do you think we are super computers who can take the amount of satoshis know exactly when the game is going to end compute all that with in seconds oh and get super lucky with magic and get our transaction on the exact second the game ends?

You sir are a bad troll.

So first you were saying it was IMPOSSIBLE for you to use pregenerated hashes:


And now you are saying that it is possible so long as you are willing to pay a few dust fees?


It takes less than a second to get a transaction onto blockchain.info, so you know which second it will be there - it's the same second as you sent it to them.

So it seems this attack has gone from "impossible, 100% false" to "anyone can do it for 0.0001 BTC". Hmmm.


Which bit is impossible? Affording the fee? Or sending a transaction at the right time?


OK. One more time:

The system is not provably fair because the site can affect the outcome of the game after the tickets have been bought by broadcasting pregenerated transactions at the right time, and deliberately selecting that transaction as the one that affects the selection of the winning ticket.


You want to see proof of what, exactly? Here are the main points:

1) you can generate transactions without broadcasting them
2) you can check the txid of those transactions before you broadcast them
3) once you know the number of satoshis bet, you can figure out which ticket would win for each transaction
4) so you can find out which of your 100 pregenerated transactions would make you win if it was picked
5) it takes less than a second to get a transaction picked up by blockchain.info
6) you have no way of proving which was the last transaction you saw on blockchain.info after the 30 seconds is up
7) you can pick any transaction that was shown on blockchain.info in the relevant second

Can you tell me which of those 7 points you need proof of? They all seem self-evident to me.

I have no reason to make any site look good. My interest is in making sure that sites which claim to be provably fair actually are. And yours isn't.

We would first have to pay the 0.001 fee from blockchain then we would also need know the second it would be on blockchain. As you can see this is impossible.

Please post it public how the system is not provably fair, because just saying it means nothing.

If you can show us any real proof i will gladly say your right, besides that you just sound like a troll. Clearly with the motivation to make us look bad and to make our competitor look good.

Care to explain why you couldn't use pre-generated hashes? You would just need to broadcast them shortly before the 30 second timeout.


I understand it just fine. It isn't provably fair.

Vouch, used this site before & he gave me a few dollars to start.
Lots of games going on and there's no need to wait weeks to find out if you won.