Topic: [BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 21. (Read 198958 times)

Hi Deprived,I have some new ideas.
can you use the DIV to buy some new equipment to increase the hash?

Here's the updated report I promised.  This includes MINING dividends up to Monday.

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   0
CIPHERMINE Bonds    260.56000000
BTC Balance (Wallet)    150.79576392
Dividends (Wallet)    3.27310018
Owed by Deprived    0.24621154
TOTAL ASSETS    414.87507564
   
Outstanding MINING   152575
Outstanding SELLING   152575
Outstanding PURCHASE   10479
Effective Units   163054
   
Dividends/Mining Owed   0.00010645
Total Dividends Owed   17.3570983
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   609,482,680
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00000413
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00020628
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00041257
365 days (Buyback)    0.00150587
405 days (IPO)    0.00167090
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00165027
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00169153

NAV/U    0.00083995    BTC +    0.1598    CIPHERMINE.B1   
NAV/U (if CM.B1 at face)    0.00243795             

"Owed by Deprived" refers to the amount I owe in respect of the last but one difficulty change - where difficulty changed between 16:00 and 00:00 so I personally will be paying the difference between old and new dividends for that date.  I haven't bothered actually transferring the funds into the DMS wallet - as seems silly to pay a fee to transfer there when they'll have to go to an exchange anyway.

Only very minor inaccuracy in the report is that a very small portion of the received CM.B1 dividends are due to an investor who DMS owes 200 Cm.B1 to (he cashed out MINING+SELLING just before transfers got disabled so was unable to send him the shares).  That amount is tiny but will be paid when I transfer him his CM.B1 shares.

Here's the list of dividends included in the above report:

Date   Dividend
04-Nov    0.00000643
05-Nov    0.00000643
06-Nov    0.00000643
07-Nov    0.00000492
08-Nov    0.00000492
09-Nov    0.00000492
10-Nov    0.00000492
11-Nov    0.00000492
12-Nov    0.00000492
13-Nov    0.00000492
14-Nov    0.00000492
15-Nov    0.00000492
16-Nov    0.00000492
17-Nov    0.00000492
18-Nov    0.00000413
19-Nov    0.00000413
20-Nov    0.00000413
21-Nov    0.00000413
22-Nov    0.00000413
23-Nov    0.00000413
24-Nov    0.00000413
25-Nov    0.00000413
   
Total    0.00010645

This.

I'm just back from the pub (full of beer) so not necessarily as coherent as I should be.  But the value of SELLING depends very much now on what CIPHERMINE.B1 is worth.  I can't comment on that more as to do so could jeopardise DMS' position (the conflict of interest I referred to earlier refers, at root, to this - I need to be able to act on behalf of DMS without having a contrary interest from being invested in the new exchange).

Bottom line is that, for dividend purposes, I can only value CIPHERMINE.B1 at whatever the lowest price is that I would have to accept were I to sell all our holdings in it.  In theory that's face-value with a 3 month delay - whether that's the case in practice is something I need to resolve over the next few days.

There won't be any SELLING divs until CIPHERMINE.B1 is liquid, or there is a large enough volume of PURCHASE sales (the former is more likely, though).

You can probably work out for yourself though what dividend SELLING would be due if CIPHERMINE.B1 could be sold at face value. Though there's no saying what it actually will trade for until there's an exchange (and it might take a while for the exchange to achieve liquidity).

Hi Deprived,
I saw your calculation regarding delayed MINING divs. What about SELLING divs? Any numbers? Thanks.

Deprived,
If the MINING dividends become too small, I would be willing to trade for shares or bonds, if that makes life easier.  I have been reinvesting about 50% of my divs anyway so ....

Thank you for the update Deprived.

I appreciate your approach to re-listing.  It's best to be patient and get it right.

(quick note: I sent an updated asset holder list this morning.  Hopefully will help fill in some of the btc address gaps.)

Hopefully everyone who emailed/PMed me now has a response if their mail needed one.  Took me longer than expected to clear the remainder of the back-log and am going out before long so may not get everything posted now that I planned to.  Will see how much I can get done anyway - and do rest tomorrow.

The big question on everyone's mind is, I assume, where (and when) DMS will relist.

The favoured option has been (and remains) the new exchange being developed/run by the Ciphermine team.  But we are NOT committed (in the sense of having promised to go there) to it - and, at present, I am not committed to being involved either as part of the operational team for it OR as an investor in it.  I should be clear that DMS listing there and me being involved in operating/investing in it are NOT tied together - it is possible we may list there without me being otherwise involved in it and it's possible (though unlikely) that DMS could list elsewhere despite me ivnesting in/being involved in operating it.  That's because the criteria for DMS listing there (that it provides the functionaility and enivorment DMS needs) aren't the same as the criteria for my involvement in the site (for me to be involved in operating it, the site needs to match my vision of how an exchange should be run and be something I'm happy to link my name to.  For me to invest in it requires me to be confident that I'll make a profit from my investment).

It IS also possible that if I invest in the exchange it could cause a conflict of interest with my role as a manager of DMS.  The reason for that isn't necessarily obvious - and I'm not going to expand on it - but that's one issue that I do need to sort out before I can make a final decision (if I believe such a conflict of interest is likely then I'd decline to invest - giving precedence to my existing commitment to DMS investors).

The code-base for the initial functionality of the exchange is, to my understanding, fairly complete - requiring just final testing, third-party penetration testing and final user interface implementation.  It's still likely to be a few weeks away.  Right up until it launches I'll be continuing dialogue with other exchanges - if somewhere else provides a better fit for DMS' requirements then I'm in no way averse to listing elsewhere.

Here's the main points I'm considering in respect of exchanges we could list on:

1.  Obviously it needs the basic functionality - ability to trade, pay dividends etc.
2.  The ability to transfer shares is essential for DMS - to split PURCHASE and to redeem pairs of MINING/SELLING (there's no other way of doing these functions).  This rules out a lot of exchanges immediately.
3.  I must have ability to obtain a list of investors (either by email address or by BTC address) - BTC-TC closed down very neatly (nice job by burnside), Bitfunder more messily (continuing excuses why people can't withdraw BTC - I got all mine out a while back luckily) and thoe who have been around for a while will remember GLBSE's shoddy closure where some assets never received lists of investors and many that did receive them had to wait months.  I'm not chancing that with any new place I list - this functionality has to be in place or be promised to be in place shortly.
4.  Accountability.  Kate who runs Ciphermine is based in the UK - as am I.  So if anything gos wrong I have immediate access to a variety of means of recourse.  Knowing the identity of someone in a different country doesn't overcome the practical issues involved in taking action (of whatever nature) should they defraud you.  There's also the linked issue of wanting an exchange operator to have a good reason not to defraud (of particular relevance with relatively new exchanges) - i.e. significant assets other than the exchange which they wouldn't want to jeopardise.  With most operators I have no knowledge sufficient to give me such confidence.
5.  Ciphermine.B1.  With these being a large part of DMS' current assets there is definitely a benefit initially in being on the same exchange as they're listed on.  Redemptions initially would have to be part cash, part bonds - which is far easier where the bonds can be sent back to the same account as sent in the MINING/SELLING/PURCHASE.  This isn't a critical requirement - but rather is something that tips the balance when all other factors are close.

I'm sorry that we aren't relisted yet - I'd expected the exchange to be up at the end of last month.  But lisitng somewhere where we couldn't operate effectively isn't an attractive option.  And do remember that I have probably more reason to want to be relisted than anyone else - all the time we're not listed I earn exactly zero in management fees whilst still havign to expend time and, on occasion, BTC (e.g. the 1/3 of times difficulty change is between 16:00 and 00:00).  Hopefully I'll have more information by the end of the weekend - if I don't have a firm date by middle of next week (when all current changes of BTC addresses will be finalised) then I'll consider doing a payment of existing MINING dividends and accept that there'll be extra hassle and delay when we do get to relist.

Will have to post the updated financials tomorrow - as heading out now.  Have now got exact times for recent difficulty changes so can give precise figures.

Still working through my back-log of non-urgent PMs/mails - but wanted to correct an error in an earlier post by me.

I stated that the largest holder of PURCHASE hadn't provided a BTC address - that's no longer true.  I'd been using an old list from a few days before BTC-TC finally closed - appears they provided an address prior to it finally shutting its doors.  Here's the stats on accounts without BTC addresses:

Mining

152575 shares
193 Investors
16 investors with no BTC address
1933 shares with no BTC address

Selling

152575 shares
153 Investors
5 investors with no BTC address
227 shares with no BTC address

PURCHASE

10479 shares
71 investors
6 investors with no BTC address
40 shares with no BTC address

If you haven't provided a BTC address and want to (or have provided one and need to change it - e.g. because it's an inputs.io address or an address you for some other reason can't sign) then this is the procedure:

1.  Email me (MUST be from the email address you used on BTC-TC) at [email protected] stating the BTC address you want to use and which shares you own.
2.  I'll wait a few days then reply to you.
3.  You then reply to my email (this exchange of emails is necessary to prevent anyone spoofing an email address in the header)
4.  I'll wait another few days then update my records at which point I'll email you again.

If you already emailed me about this and haven't received an initial reply it'll either be because you only emailed me in the last few days OR you'll be being emailed within the next hour or so.
The delays are necessary to ensure someone with short-term access can't change your BTC address on record.

Yeah, send me an email at [email protected] (it MUST be from the email address you used for your BTC-TC account) and tell me which you held shares in (Mining/Selling/Purchase) - and I'll look up how how many you had and reply telling you.

Will be making a more substantive post here in a few hours - just going to finish off replying to all PMs/emails first.

Ideally not.  As mentioned before, if I pay dividends to some shares but not all then the shares stop being fungible (i.e. they aren't interchangable - as some have owed dividends on and others don't) which means they can't be traded on an exchange.  And I can't pay dividends to all - as some people didn't ever specify a BTC address to BTC-TC (it's not just small investors either - the person with the largest number of PURCHASE - a few thousand - hasn't provided a BTC address).  So best solution is to move to an exchange, create accounts for everyone based on email addresses then catch up on MINING dividends there.

Is there a way to find out how much I have invested now?
think i had some 30 or 40 sahres only or even less

Here is your wish fulfilled   

Stripykitteh!  Though shalt not play with FOREX!

Can't wait for DMS to be tradeable again. It's fun. And I think the next six months or so will be very interesting as new players are attracted to mining by the recent appreciation in the btc:fiat exchange rate.

I need something to stop me being tempted into forex speculation...

Any idea if MINING dividend will be sent directly before moving to the new exchange?

Cheers

PS: thanks for not vanishing like other prominent figures of the forum did, worryingly

Thanks for the link.

Here's some info on the new exchange that'll list DMS, CIPHERTRADE, primarily operated by the folks at CIPHERMINE. Deprived is apparently in its advisory board.

https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7176.0.html

ok。。。。fine

Well, you could start selling PURCHASE in blocks of 1000 and, as @eltopo suggested, you could give a time limit to round the amount of owned shares.
After that you don't even need to cut them, just to prevent selling amounts of shares <1000 if you already have >= 1000: doing so will ensure there won't be new people owning <1000 shares, just old ones.

But... yes, it's getting a bit complicated, and maybe it's not worth the effort.

DMS pulled out of CoinLenders after it became a "demo website" some time ago. Right now all assets are in liquid BTC or CIPHERMINE bonds.

Regarding the rounding of mining dividends: Perhaps dividends can be paid once per difficulty-period rather than daily. With a difficulty-period lasting between 10 and 12 days, this gives the one extra significant digit to make rounding errors less pronounced.