[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 20.

Rannasha

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Quote from: DaSheep on November 26, 2013, 04:12:48 PM

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

Read back. SELLING dividends can't be paid until the CIPHERMINE bonds, or at least part of them, can be sold for liquid BTC. Once enough liquid BTC is available, SELLING will gets its dividend payment.

DaSheep

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Ok thanks for the replies but I still have the same question.
What's about (backlogged) SELLING dividends?

I bought SELLING as a kind of hedge against mining difficulty, so I'm only interested in the dividends and not the price of the shares.
So now difficulty exploded but the last dividends I recieved was on 2013-10-27 and since then the difficulty didn't slow down.

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

NineLives

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Hi Deprived,

I emailed you asking for an update? No replay.

I'll send another email. Please confirm what email to use?

I'm a bit behind on what going on and will try to read back as much as I can.

Thanks

PS. This is the email I used: [email protected]

Deprived

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Quote from: LiteBit on November 26, 2013, 02:25:06 PM

Very good! Looking forward to trading stocks and netting dividends again.
Will you post any changes you propose (if any) to original prospectus on BTCT.co to the DMS securities as well?
Such as paying MINING dividends daily again.

I'm not anticipating there being any significant changes to the contract - operational things like precisely how redemptions are handled don't require changes to the contract.

MINING dividends would be paid daily as before regardless of where we relist (once the backlog had been cleared and any teething problems with relisting had been resolved). i.e. I'd likely wait a day or two after relisting to make sure there were no problems with people having wrong number of shares or similar before paying outstanding dividends (though if we relist on the exchange currently planned then I could verify the list myself as I'd have access to a list similar to what I had on BTC-TC, so could check it myself).

Until/unless automated transfers could be implemented I'd likely impose some restrictions on trades of PURCHASE for MINING/SELLING (but anyone already holding PURCHASE would of course be allowed to swap) but everything else would be as before - though with redemption policy reflecting the reality that NAV/U is X BTC + Y CIPHERMINE.B1 until that changes.

LiteBit

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Very good! Looking forward to trading stocks and netting dividends again.
Will you post any changes you propose (if any) to original prospectus on BTCT.co to the DMS securities as well?
Such as paying MINING dividends daily again.

Deprived

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Quote from: stripykitteh on November 25, 2013, 07:18:48 PM

PSA:

https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,4582.msg58859.html#msg58859

TL; DR: New exchange for CIPHERMINE.B1 is planned to go live on Jan 2, 2014.

That's when it'll go fully live (and anyone will be able to submit new securities for listing etc).

CIPHERMINE.B1 (and DMS if we list there - which looks very likely) would be live and traded significantly before that date. As soon as an actual date is finally agreed I'll post it here.

I have also now confirmed that all of the key functionality we need will be present from the start (in fact that had been clarified for some period in documentation - but due to a misunderstanding I didn't have access to that but it was thought that I did.)

Deprived

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Quote from: odolvlobo on November 25, 2013, 02:08:30 AM

Quote from: Rannasha on November 25, 2013, 01:55:03 AM

Quote from: DaSheep on November 25, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

Quote from: Deprived on November 23, 2013, 01:20:53 PM

And yes - I'm only referring to MINING dividends: at present no SELLING dividends can be paid.

Will they be paid (back) once it's possible to do so?
I'm holding >1000 shares of DMS.SELLING, is there anything i should/can do besides just.. waiting?

You could offer to buy CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds at face value from DMS.
Those things are what's holding back SELLING dividends from being payable. The total NAV of the fund is sufficient, but since the shutdown of BTCT it hasn't been possible to rebalance the funds portfolio and now these illiquid assets make up the majority of the NAV.

At the risk of being really annoying... I told you so!
I was totally against investing the fund's assets because of the unnecessary risk, but everyone else let their greed rule them. We took a big loss from Just Dice and now the funds are stuck in limbo. We narrowly missed losing big time with CoinLenders. ... and all for the sake of a few more percent of return.

In fairness you also need to consider the other side of the coin.

DMS made steady and safe profits from the LTC-ATF.B2 - including selling a significant number of them on the market at a good markup to the face value I sold them to DMS for. And DMS made a fast 20 BTC profit from the 24 hour (and 100% secured) loan I took.

The Just-Dice loss was unfortunate - had I not divested when I did we'd now be well into profit on it (but I had to divest given the situation) and the loss that occurred there had a very small likelihood of happening.

Coinlenders we got out of with a decent profit made - as soon as he removed the personal guarantees and started trying to get hold of much cash as he could with inputs.io it was obvious that it was not a good idea to have cash with him and I got us out.

Ciphermine.B1 was a good move that turned into a bad one due to BTC-TC closing - until then we'd been collecting dividends and slowly selling them off at a small markup to what we paid.

All of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. If I was starting DMS afresh now I think I'd not invest at all other than where there was guaranteed 100% backing and significant liquidity - which, in practice, would mean only in bonds/loans to myself (as no amount of accounts/records from someone else can ever provide me with certainty that backing exists and liquidity will be provided). Fundamentally investment wasn't a good idea with DMS as those who don't want a specific investment can end up having to take on the risk of it (due to being outvoted) when all they actually want is the risks associated with their own judgement of the relative values of SELLING/MINING.

stripykitteh

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PSA:

https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,4582.msg58859.html#msg58859

TL; DR: New exchange for CIPHERMINE.B1 is planned to go live on Jan 2, 2014.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: Rannasha on November 25, 2013, 01:55:03 AM

Quote from: DaSheep on November 25, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

Quote from: Deprived on November 23, 2013, 01:20:53 PM

And yes - I'm only referring to MINING dividends: at present no SELLING dividends can be paid.

Will they be paid (back) once it's possible to do so?
I'm holding >1000 shares of DMS.SELLING, is there anything i should/can do besides just.. waiting?

You could offer to buy CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds at face value from DMS.
Those things are what's holding back SELLING dividends from being payable. The total NAV of the fund is sufficient, but since the shutdown of BTCT it hasn't been possible to rebalance the funds portfolio and now these illiquid assets make up the majority of the NAV.

At the risk of being really annoying... I told you so!
I was totally against investing the fund's assets because of the unnecessary risk, but everyone else let their greed rule them. We took a big loss from Just Dice and now the funds are stuck in limbo. We narrowly missed losing big time with CoinLenders. ... and all for the sake of a few more percent of return.

stripykitteh

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Quote from: DaSheep on November 25, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

Quote from: Deprived on November 23, 2013, 01:20:53 PM

And yes - I'm only referring to MINING dividends: at present no SELLING dividends can be paid.

Will they be paid (back) once it's possible to do so?

I'm holding >1000 shares of DMS.SELLING, is there anything i should/can do besides just.. waiting?

I also hold DMS.SELLING.

It's all about the liquidity of CIPHERMINE.B1. Once that is listed on an exchange and has a live quote NAV/U can be calculated and it would be possible to pay DMS.SELLING a dividend (provided that the NAV works out to be more than 410 days of MINING dividends at the time, which it almost certainly would be).

We have to be patient, I'm afraid. Deprived is a dependable asset manager and CIPHERMINE isn't going away so I see the risk of not getting paid as being very low. But Kate and her people have to get their exchange operational first.

Lack of liquidity is frustrating, I agree. I've done a couple of very stupid trades in other things waiting for this to re-list and have been lucky to only lose a little bit.

Rannasha

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Quote from: DaSheep on November 25, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

Quote from: Deprived on November 23, 2013, 01:20:53 PM

And yes - I'm only referring to MINING dividends: at present no SELLING dividends can be paid.

Will they be paid (back) once it's possible to do so?

I'm holding >1000 shares of DMS.SELLING, is there anything i should/can do besides just.. waiting?

You could offer to buy CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds at face value from DMS.

Those things are what's holding back SELLING dividends from being payable. The total NAV of the fund is sufficient, but since the shutdown of BTCT it hasn't been possible to rebalance the funds portfolio and now these illiquid assets make up the majority of the NAV.

DaSheep

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Quote from: Deprived on November 23, 2013, 01:20:53 PM

And yes - I'm only referring to MINING dividends: at present no SELLING dividends can be paid.

Will they be paid (back) once it's possible to do so?

I'm holding >1000 shares of DMS.SELLING, is there anything i should/can do besides just.. waiting?

shmoula

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Do you have some service selected? Or do you have any list of features you want from it? We may help you with searching

Quote from: Deprived on November 23, 2013, 11:59:44 AM

. . . relisting . . .

Deprived

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Quote from: Rannasha on November 23, 2013, 12:56:23 PM

Quote from: Ashitank on November 23, 2013, 12:39:52 PM

I think we should put a deadline may be 15 days from now by when all share holders have to sort them self's out , it is their money & if they don't care about their own BTC then their dividends should be absorbed into DMS.

I'm not sure if 15 days is the right length of time, but some plan on what to do with those investors that haven't provided the relevant information after some time would be useful.

Anyway, @Deprived: I assume the on-request dividend payments are only for MINING holders, since there's not enough liquid BTC for SELLING dividends?

The problem isn't so much those who haven't provided a BTC address at all - as those are obvious. The issue with those is purely that they can't be paid dividends, so as soon as the rest are paid (and they aren't) then shares cease to be fungible. But that problem becomes reality as soon as I allow anyone to claim dividends - so from that point on is moot.

The problem IS that some people's BTC addresses are inputs.io ones - and I have no way of knowing which ones that is. I know that some are - as, even in last few days, I've received more mails stating that to be the case and asking for the address of record to be changed. As noted before I could quite reasonably just pay out and say "tough luck, you should have been paying more attention" to anyone who still hasn't corrected such an error - but I'm reluctant to do that unless/until absolutely necessary as losing investors' funds (even if it's clearly their fault) when avoidable is something I'd prefer not to do.

And yes - I'm only referring to MINING dividends: at present no SELLING dividends can be paid.

Rannasha

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Quote from: Ashitank on November 23, 2013, 12:39:52 PM

I think we should put a deadline may be 15 days from now by when all share holders have to sort them self's out , it is their money & if they don't care about their own BTC then their dividends should be absorbed into DMS.

I'm not sure if 15 days is the right length of time, but some plan on what to do with those investors that haven't provided the relevant information after some time would be useful.

Anyway, @Deprived: I assume the on-request dividend payments are only for MINING holders, since there's not enough liquid BTC for SELLING dividends?

Ashitank

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I think we should put a deadline may be 15 days from now by when all share holders have to sort them self's out , it is their money & if they don't care about their own BTC then their dividends should be absorbed into DMS.

Deprived

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Quote from: inspiredinvestor on November 23, 2013, 03:35:35 AM

is the plan to wait to pay when all have moved to new exchange? or is there a chance of a payout before? or are you still waiting for people to get in touch with there bitcoin address that didn't have them on btct.
I am not desperate for coin, i just was wondering the plan.

I'd far prefer to pay all dividends after we relist - but at the same time it wouldn't be right for me to withhold significant sums from investors that they may need for a long period of time.

I don't see any way that I'd be able to make a general payout of all dividends in the near future - I'm still receiving new contacts from people asking for BTC addresses to be changed because they're inputs.io ones or addresses that they have no control over.

What I will offer next week (if I'm not able to provide a firm date for relisting by then) is to pay back dividends out to anyone who wants them - they'd be processed individually with the recipient paying the .001 (or is it .0001) BTC transaction fee. In any relisting their shares would then NOT be transferred automatically - but would be transferred manually by me after back dividends had been paid to all other shares. This would add significant extra work for me - as once people had requested back dividends on different days the process of importing and paying out back dividends on a new exchange would become progressively longer and more messy. But it would address both issues currently faced:

1. Allowing those owed significant amounts of back dividends to collect them.
2. Avoiding the scenario where I pay dividends to an address no longer under the control of the owner where the BTC vanish.

In theory I could ignore #2 - and claim it's the investor's responsibility to have provided a clean address that they control. But I don't feel comfortable with potentially losing funds where an investor has been away for a while, thought they'd provided a 'safe' address and haven't yet become aware of/dealt with the inputs.io scam/theft.

inspiredinvestor

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Quote from: Deprived on November 21, 2013, 01:16:12 PM

Here's the updated report I promised. This includes MINING dividends up to Monday.

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   0
CIPHERMINE Bonds    260.56000000
BTC Balance (Wallet)    150.79576392
Dividends (Wallet)    3.27310018
Owed by Deprived    0.24621154
TOTAL ASSETS    414.87507564

Outstanding MINING   152575
Outstanding SELLING   152575
Outstanding PURCHASE   10479
Effective Units   163054

Dividends/Mining Owed   0.00010645
Total Dividends Owed   17.3570983

Block reward   25
Difficulty   609,482,680
Hashes per MINING   5000000

Daily Dividend    0.00000413
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00020628
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00041257
365 days (Buyback)    0.00150587
405 days (IPO)    0.00167090
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00165027
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00169153

NAV/U    0.00083995    BTC +    0.1598    CIPHERMINE.B1
NAV/U (if CM.B1 at face)    0.00243795

"Owed by Deprived" refers to the amount I owe in respect of the last but one difficulty change - where difficulty changed between 16:00 and 00:00 so I personally will be paying the difference between old and new dividends for that date. I haven't bothered actually transferring the funds into the DMS wallet - as seems silly to pay a fee to transfer there when they'll have to go to an exchange anyway.

Only very minor inaccuracy in the report is that a very small portion of the received CM.B1 dividends are due to an investor who DMS owes 200 Cm.B1 to (he cashed out MINING+SELLING just before transfers got disabled so was unable to send him the shares). That amount is tiny but will be paid when I transfer him his CM.B1 shares.

Here's the list of dividends included in the above report:

Date   Dividend
04-Nov    0.00000643
05-Nov    0.00000643
06-Nov    0.00000643
07-Nov    0.00000492
08-Nov    0.00000492
09-Nov    0.00000492
10-Nov    0.00000492
11-Nov    0.00000492
12-Nov    0.00000492
13-Nov    0.00000492
14-Nov    0.00000492
15-Nov    0.00000492
16-Nov    0.00000492
17-Nov    0.00000492
18-Nov    0.00000413
19-Nov    0.00000413
20-Nov    0.00000413
21-Nov    0.00000413
22-Nov    0.00000413
23-Nov    0.00000413
24-Nov    0.00000413
25-Nov    0.00000413

Total    0.00010645

is the plan to wait to pay when all have moved to new exchange? or is there a chance of a payout before? or are you still waiting for people to get in touch with there bitcoin address that didn't have them on btct.
I am not desperate for coin, i just was wondering the plan.

HowlingMad

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Quote from: kingfzero on November 21, 2013, 10:39:32 PM

Hi Deprived,I have some new ideas.
can you use the DIV to buy some new equipment to increase the hash?

Please read the very first few entries in this thread, you will get a complete idea of how it works.

BitThink

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Quote from: kingfzero on November 21, 2013, 10:39:32 PM

Hi Deprived,I have some new ideas.
can you use the DIV to buy some new equipment to increase the hash?

There's no hashing. MINING is like a virtual mining bond, and the mining income is supported by the SELLING holders. I suggest you to spend some time learning this fund more first.

Topic: [BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 20. (Read 198958 times)