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Topic: [BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 28. (Read 198958 times)

hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Thanks a lot for your update, Deprived.

The hash rate increase is crazy. The selling dividend this time is even larger than the last one. 

There's one thing. The selling dividend paid next time may be very close to the BTCT closing. How about someone forget to transfer the dividend out? Will BTCT force sending remaining BTC to the withdraw address?

I assume that BTCT will push all remaining balances to the public BTC address associated with the accounts. And since that's the address that Deprived has on file for shareholders, it doesn't make a big difference if he pays dividends on BTCT just before the shutdown or if he does it to the BTC addresses (other than that a BTCT dividend is orders of magnitude less work).
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
Thanks a lot for your update, Deprived.

The hash rate increase is crazy. The selling dividend this time is even larger than the last one. 

There's one thing. The selling dividend paid next time may be very close to the BTCT closing. How about someone forget to transfer the dividend out? Will BTCT force sending remaining BTC to the withdraw address?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
  8fb01b421a5af31022c3320d96e5c05ba126f4e6fcd51a148038441603482c34: Seen by 4 peers. Pending/unconfirmed.
     from 1CzJY7pVkCqDjUtycHzFgeTTbbWokqYuXo / 040ff50735e1c8946f5d038b45b277c69fd68f63989897dd909b34dba718b433:1
       to 16ywYMGVQMepEgUCnQMjM6N4hEGYgXE88Z 120 BTC
       to 1CzJY7pVkCqDjUtycHzFgeTTbbWokqYuXo 33.86126722 BTC

There's the transfer done.  The wallet balance can, as before, still be verified at any time - all assets of DMS are still entirely visible to the public for verification (or will be, once the transfer confirms at the BTC-TC wallet).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
NOT ACTUAL REPORT - PROJECTION OF TOMORROW'S

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   140.1236189
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    260.56000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9    203.64459670
Just-Dice Balance    153.86136722
TOTAL ASSETS    848.89958278
   
Outstanding MINING   152575
Outstanding SELLING   152575
Outstanding PURCHASE   10479
Effective Units   163054
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   267,731,250
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00000939
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00046960
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00093920
365 days (Buyback)    0.00342808
405 days (IPO)    0.00380376
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00375680
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00385072
   
NAV Post MINING Div    847.36817919
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.00519686
Days Dividend Post Div   553.33
SELLING Dividend    0.00144006
NAV Post SELLING Div    612.56143452
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.00375680

That's what tomorrow's report would look like before I moved funds around.  I'll need to move just under 100 BTC on to cover tomorrow's dividends + some more to cover MINING dividends up until next difficulty change.  So I'll transfer 120 BTC from the wallet to BTC-TC (and post the transaction ID here).

NAV etc tomorrow will be almost exactly the same as above - only difference being the loss of a transaction fee for the transfer (I'm not going to bother trying to avoid the default .0001 transaction fee.)
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Paying today's dividend slightly early (which has no impact as there's no trading occurring).

Will then work out what tomorrow's dividends will be and have to move some BTC back onto BTC-TC to cover it.

Asset list will change from tomorrow - the items listed as LTC-ATF.B1, Coinlenders and Just-Dice will be consolidated into "BTC Balance (Wallet)" - which is where those coins have been for a while (address was given earlier).  I left it as it was for a while so people could verify that the wallet balance matched the old entries - but as I'm now going to have to move some of that to BTC-TC for dividends (at least I'm pretty sure I will - won't know for certain until I plug the numers in) the balance will no longer be the total of those three entries.

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   142.288976
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    260.56000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9    203.64459670
Just-Dice Balance    153.86136722
TOTAL ASSETS    851.06493990
   
Outstanding MINING   152575
Outstanding SELLING   152575
Outstanding PURCHASE   10479
Effective Units   163054
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   189,281,249
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00001328
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00066423
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00132846
365 days (Buyback)    0.00484889
405 days (IPO)    0.00538028
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00531385
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00544670
   
NAV Post MINING Div    848.89882679
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.00520624
Days Dividend Post Div   391.90
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    848.89882679
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.00520624
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
Hi guys,

Sorry to be a pain but would someone be so kind and give me a brief update on what we are doing? Moving to another security site?  If so which and how do I inform someone of my shares?

Thanks allot.

As long as you've filled the public BTC address on btct, you don't need to do anything except sending back the BTC on btct before its closing. Moreover, there's an update in just the previous page. If you click it instead of entering so much characters, you would see Deprived said most likely DMS will be relisted in a new exchange. Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Hi guys,

Sorry to be a pain but would someone be so kind and give me a brief update on what we are doing? Moving to another security site?  If so which and how do I inform someone of my shares?

Thanks allot.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Sorry - paying 10 minutes late today.

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   144.4543331
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    260.56000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9    203.64459670
Just-Dice Balance    153.86136722
TOTAL ASSETS    853.23029702
   
Outstanding MINING   152575
Outstanding SELLING   152575
Outstanding PURCHASE   10479
Effective Units   163054
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   189,281,249
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00001328
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00066423
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00132846
365 days (Buyback)    0.00484889
405 days (IPO)    0.00538028
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00531385
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00544670
   
NAV Post MINING Div    851.06418391
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.00521952
Days Dividend Post Div   392.90
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    851.06418391
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.00521952
full member
Activity: 175
Merit: 100
That's pretty much how I see it. While nothing is guaranteed of course, on occasions I've felt like my position in DMS is the nearest thing there is to taking candy from a baby.
You said it Kitteh!!  My sweet tooth has been killing me lately.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
The practical part of me just says "fuck it - I'll continue printing money : if fools insist on throwing away their BTC then I'm at least as deserving to collect some as everyone else".  If only I was willing to lie and/or mislead to make BTC I could do a lot better.

That's pretty much how I see it. While nothing is guaranteed of course, on occasions I've felt like my position in DMS is the nearest thing there is to taking candy from a baby.
full member
Activity: 175
Merit: 100
On a last note let me give a (probably irresponsible - but I've had few beers so who cares) teaser.  
You handle your beer quite well!   Grin
Now I get the point.  Technically, Mining can never reach zero but at some point it will make sense to cancel it all and start from scratch.

With the ridiculous difficulty increases lately (30%+ 3 times a month), I have scrapped any plans to buy mining hardware.  I don't have $100K to make it economically profitable, and then have it drop dead quickly.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
On a last note let me give a (probably irresponsible - but I've had few beers so who cares) teaser.  The biggest profits to be made trading DMS are yet to come - predicting the cross-over point where difficulty ceases rising and the price of MINING gos through the roof (SELLING has no exit route other than paying 90% of NAV/U to MINING).  I don't pretend to know exactly when that occurs but when it does it's going to catch a lot of people by surprise.

Yeah, my crystal ball isn't perfect either but it's bound to happen at some stage. We've gone from 130nm to 28nm in less than a year. The closer we get to ASICs on process sizes rivaling current-spec commercial CPUs, the slower the increase in adoption of smaller sizes as the cost of doing so climbs exponentially. I expect that the highest-ever difficulty increase (in % terms) in the ASIC era is likely to happen in the next 3 months. Of course a complicating factor could be a surge in the price of BTC triggers a future surge in ASIC production before the point is reached when SELLING votes to close the fund.

On ASIC purchases I'm fairly torn in opinion.

A) One part of me says "Surely they;'re going to notice at some point that for the last 6 months next to nothing purchased will ever mine the BTC it cost to buy".
B)  The other part says "Heh - they're just idiots and will continue throwing away BTC in the misguided belief that mining has some divine right to be profitable".

The practical part of me just says "fuck it - I'll continue printing money : if fools insist on throwing away their BTC then I'm at least as deserving to collect some as everyone else".  If only I was willing to lie and/or mislead to make BTC I could do a lot better.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
The only factor you haven't accounted for is BTC/USD ratio. If BTC goes to 1k$, it will subtract another order of magnitude from electricity and hardware prices (in BTC).

Yep - a massive spike in BTC prices WOULD break prices.  But my prediction was (and remains) that isn't going to happen until AFTER difficulty has stagnated.  But, obviously, something could arise to make that wrong.

I'm fairly confident in a medium to long-term rise in BTC price (vs fiat) but short-term I don't see any prospect of a sustained significant rise.  Certainly not of one likely to matter on the scale necessary to have impact here.

As mentioned earlier - in retrospect I should have built provision for this into the contract (though it's actually very hard to do - as any reverse-split is either unnecessarily beneficial to those holding small quantities of shares or unfairly prejudicial towards them).  In theory the current contract could operate right down until MINING dividends fell below half a satoshi (i.e. were rounded down to zero) - in practice I'd want to close the situation out an order of magnitude higher.  I'd also need to correct my spreadsheets to round to what was actually paid at some stage (at present the discrepancy is tiny enough not to make any difference at all).
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
On a last note let me give a (probably irresponsible - but I've had few beers so who cares) teaser.  The biggest profits to be made trading DMS are yet to come - predicting the cross-over point where difficulty ceases rising and the price of MINING gos through the roof (SELLING has no exit route other than paying 90% of NAV/U to MINING).  I don't pretend to know exactly when that occurs but when it does it's going to catch a lot of people by surprise.

Yeah, my crystal ball isn't perfect either but it's bound to happen at some stage. We've gone from 130nm to 28nm in less than a year. The closer we get to ASICs on process sizes rivaling current-spec commercial CPUs, the slower the increase in adoption of smaller sizes as the cost of doing so climbs exponentially. I expect that the highest-ever difficulty increase (in % terms) in the ASIC era is likely to happen in the next 3 months. Of course a complicating factor could be a surge in the price of BTC triggers a future surge in ASIC production before the point is reached when SELLING votes to close the fund.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
The only factor you haven't accounted for is BTC/USD ratio. If BTC goes to 1k$, it will subtract another order of magnitude from electricity and hardware prices (in BTC).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
As soon as I can provide more information I will - but I'd prefer not to give anything detailed until it's finally agreed : better to say nothing than say something which later has to be retracted.  I can confirm all investors would be able to trade without providing ID as that's a precondition on me moving DMS to ANY exchange.  So if it doesn't allow that then we wouldn't list there.
Deprived, I am just happy we are going somewhere!  Don't really care about the verified ID stuff, you know sooner or later ALL countries will be requiring it.  Bankers/politicians need their pound of flesh. 

Just one question though.  What happens when MINING = zero?  Do you shutdown this fund and start with a new one?

You have really been conscientious and certainly someone we can trust through this whole mess. 
 

Good question. I think some form of bundling might be required. E.g., instead of 5mhash PMBs, MINING becomes 50mhash PMBs. Though you'd have to pay out people holding odd lots of MINING.


I've had a few (i.e. a lot of) beers so apologies if I'm not as clear as I could be.  MINING can't ever reach 0 or near to it (relative to the price of PURCHASE).  That's because if there's a massive rise then immediately there's a large dividend to SELLING reducing the NVA/U of PURCHASE.

After EVERY increase i ndifficulty greater than a few % MINING is always going to be paying dividends equal to 1/400th of NAV/U per day.  That sets an absolute minimum on the value/price of MINING (depending on what you believe the minimum to be between dfficulty changes).

Where the contract is currently silent is on the situation where MINING's dividends/value end up being effectively rounding errors (which requires a few orders of magnitude increase in difficulty).  Whilst I believe that unlikely (prices were, in part, set based on what I believed to be best/worst cases in the short-mid term) it obviously isn't theoretically impossible (note that if it occurs then nearly all ASICs produced to date would mine less coins than the power cost of running them let alone any recovery of sunk costs).

My expectation was (and remains) that at some point in the not too distant future MINING will end up being the majority of PURCHASE value - and SELLING will then vote to close the fund (obtainin 10% of NAV/U rather than the 0% they'd receive back if they waited).  I don't want to poison the pool by giving by prediction of when that will occur but rather obviously it would have to occur between difficulty increasing by 1 order of magnitude (which is almost certain) and it increasing by 2 orders of magnitude (which I believe to be highly unlikely with current technology).

If it actually happens that MINING dividends drop below 10 satoshis per day then we DO have a problem that isn't covered by the contract.  I believe it exceedingly unlikely that will happen without a period of stagnation previously (where SELLING should rationally vote to close) as the break-even point for those obtaining free hardware and $0.01/KWh electricity falls before that with current technology (and that's the edge case I used when setting hashes/share initially to avoid this problem).

It may not be the most satisfcatory answer ever - but my response is that:

a) It isn't likely to happen.
b) If it does happen then I'll sort something out.

In retrospect there's a few changes I should have made when designing DMS - one of which definitely IS provision for reverse splits to keep the price of MINING in a sensible range.

Do bear in mind when considering this that you'd only be discussing dividends per month of under 1% of current market value of MINING - whatever else is the case it's entirely trivial when currently assessing the value of MINING.

On a last note let me give a (probably irresponsible - but I've had few beers so who cares) teaser.  The biggest profits to be made trading DMS are yet to come - predicting the cross-over point where difficulty ceases rising and the price of MINING gos through the roof (SELLING has no exit route other than paying 90% of NAV/U to MINING).  I don't pretend to know exactly when that occurs but when it does it's going to catch a lot of people by surprise.

From a management perspective it's been a fun (and profitable) security to run - right up until recently.  Hopefully we can get back to that : it offers a legitimate method for people to bet on their judgment vs others KNOWING in advance the odds they get - which is very rare in BTC land (most betting services either don't give fixed odds, have no market depth or are just random in outcome).
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
As soon as I can provide more information I will - but I'd prefer not to give anything detailed until it's finally agreed : better to say nothing than say something which later has to be retracted.  I can confirm all investors would be able to trade without providing ID as that's a precondition on me moving DMS to ANY exchange.  So if it doesn't allow that then we wouldn't list there.
Deprived, I am just happy we are going somewhere!  Don't really care about the verified ID stuff, you know sooner or later ALL countries will be requiring it.  Bankers/politicians need their pound of flesh. 

Just one question though.  What happens when MINING = zero?  Do you shutdown this fund and start with a new one?

You have really been conscientious and certainly someone we can trust through this whole mess. 
 

Good question. I think some form of bundling might be required. E.g., instead of 5mhash PMBs, MINING becomes 50mhash PMBs. Though you'd have to pay out people holding odd lots of MINING.
full member
Activity: 175
Merit: 100
As soon as I can provide more information I will - but I'd prefer not to give anything detailed until it's finally agreed : better to say nothing than say something which later has to be retracted.  I can confirm all investors would be able to trade without providing ID as that's a precondition on me moving DMS to ANY exchange.  So if it doesn't allow that then we wouldn't list there.
Deprived, I am just happy we are going somewhere!  Don't really care about the verified ID stuff, you know sooner or later ALL countries will be requiring it.  Bankers/politicians need their pound of flesh. 

Just one question though.  What happens when MINING = zero?  Do you shutdown this fund and start with a new one?

You have really been conscientious and certainly someone we can trust through this whole mess. 
 
full member
Activity: 149
Merit: 100
Maybe Kates/CIPHERMINEs creation? 21st we will know more.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Hah, now that you've mentioned it's not Havelock either, I'm even more curious Smiley
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