[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 38.

Rannasha

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Quote from: NineLives on September 23, 2013, 03:20:47 PM

Hi guys,

Please can someone give me an update. I'm a bit lost to whats going on?

BTCT.co is closing so what happens to our shares?
I doubt I goto sell off before it closes so what do I need to do?

Can someone advise pls..

Ta..

There's some discussion about this on the last few pages. The gist of it:
- Most of the funds assets are coins. Only 360 BTC worth of CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds are uncertain.
- The entire fund may move to a different exchange, motions may be posted about this.
- If the fund doesn't move and gets closed down, Deprived will divide the coins in the fund over the shareholders (ratio MINING:SELLING to be determined).
- Trading of MINING & SELLING will continue for 2 more weeks, but PURCHASE has been locked.

Read the last few pages for more info.

Lohoris

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Bitgoblin

Quote from: NineLives on September 23, 2013, 03:20:47 PM

Hi guys,

Please can someone give me an update. I'm a bit lost to whats going on?

BTCT.co is closing so what happens to our shares?
I doubt I goto sell off before it closes so what do I need to do?

Can someone advise pls..

Ta..

Try reading the last few pages, maybe?

NineLives

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Hi guys,

Please can someone give me an update. I'm a bit lost to whats going on?

BTCT.co is closing so what happens to our shares?
I doubt I goto sell off before it closes so what do I need to do?

Can someone advise pls..

Ta..

001sonkit

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Activity: 784

Merit: 1000

Casper - A failed entrepenuer who looks like Zhou

Quote from: Lohoris on September 23, 2013, 10:27:28 AM

I totally don't trust Bitfunder, both for the laughable security bugs found in the past, and for the terribile terrible step of using the horrible weExchange (worse than the inputs.io crap to use coinlenders, lol).

That said, I'm no longer holding DMS shares, simply because I think they matched their real value now, so my opinion in this matter shouldn't have as much weight as that of someone who still has them.

Let's say that if DMS moves to Havelock I might trade it again if in future the price becomes inbalanced again and I see opportunity for profit, while if it moves to Bitfunder I won't touch it no matter what.

Agree with that, Bitfunder sucks on UX UI, Security, how it works blah blah blah. On havelock the seems there isnt fee except withdrwal if i am still up to date... anyway thanks for whoever dropped 0.0045 DMSSELLING on my hand. My Pleasure

Deprived

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DMS' J-D funds have now been withdrawn BTW.

I gave link to the address earlier, here's the transaction ID with the withdrawal : 040ff50735e1c8946f5d038b45b277c69fd68f63989897dd909b34dba718b433

It doesn't show up on blockexplorer yet but my wallet already picked it up so it definitely went.

Deprived

hero member

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Craziness on J-D today BTW.

Think it hadd dropped to about -1500 when we withdrew (I didn't make a note of it). It then fell to worse than -3K but the guy has proceeded to give a chunk back and looks like he just ran out of his current batch of cash with J-D house back up to nearly +3k. So terrible timing for us - but such is life (I wouldn't have pulled our cash if it wasn't for BTC-TC closing of course).

FloatesMcgoates

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Quote

Dear All,

This turn of events is unexpected and I shall not lie: almost certainly pretty bad for most of our shareholders.

As Giles said, we are looking at options as to how to proceed. The options under consideration are (in no particular order):

a) Move to a friedcat-style direct share ownership scheme
b) Migrate to a different exchange such as crypto-trade or Havelock
c) Create a new exchange (can't go into details right now but this is a possibility)
d) Forcibly buy back all shares (at a rate decided by the major shareholders, ie. me, Giles and a couple of others)

However, I must forewarn you that I do not think it is going to be practical to give all shareholders the same levels of attention in this transition. I am committed to looking after our major shareholders (eg. those with >500 or perhaps >1,000 share) but it may not be practical to switch to a friedcat-like system of direct share ownership with the large numbers of shareholders we have, nor to migrate all of you to a new exchange.

I therefore encourage those of you with a small number of shares to take what you can over the next week to get some value from the shares you have (ie. sell them) to avoid potentially being left with nothing at all should we end up in a situation where we cannot look after you all.

To be blunt, this experience has resulted in me getting royally screwed (I have significant holdings in addition to CipherMine on these exchanges). I am angry that this has come to pass and am tempted to take steps to close the door, taking CipherMine in-house with a very small number of investors. In practice, it would be simplest for us to walk away at this point (and with the exchange closing one could deem our contract as coming to a natural end) but I am going to take at least some steps to make good.

Anyway, the above is just me sharing some early, probably emotional, thoughts. I will be discussing the matter with our major investors (both in CIPHERMINE and CIPHERMINE.B1 the BTC bond) in due course. Unfortunately I have other pressing matters to attend to for the next 48 hours so please excuse a lack of comms in the mean time.

Kate.

That was a message from Kate regarding how she is going to proceed with the situation, hopefully Deprived is considered "Major" enough such that the bonds are still worth face value.

Deprived

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I haven't bothered taking a management fee for the few sales yesterday/today prior to BTC-TC's announcement. Obviously there'll be no management in future unless/until sales of PURCHASE reopen.

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   1142.774967
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    360.61000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9   203.0881027
Coinlenders Cash   0
Just-Dice Balance    153.86146722
TOTAL ASSETS    1,951.04453736

Outstanding MINING   210981
Outstanding SELLING   210981
Outstanding PURCHASE   14397
Effective Units   225378

Block reward   25

Difficulty   112,628,549
Hashes per MINING   5000000

Daily Dividend    0.00002233
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00111629
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00223259
365 days (Buyback)    0.00814895
405 days (IPO)    0.00904199
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00893036
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00915361

NAV Post MINING Div    1,946.01277294
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.00863444
Days Dividend Post Div   386.75
SELLING Dividend    -
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,946.01277294
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.00863444 << Now there's no investments/sales this is what MINING+SELLING should add to (less any discount you believe needs to be applied to CIPHERMINE bonds.
PURCHASE selling price    0.009066
PURCHASE buy-back price    0.008462

baloo_kiev

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Quote from: Deprived on September 23, 2013, 10:49:20 AM

For the record I personally hold something like 15-20K SELLING and 0 MINING right now

LOL I had no doubt about it. MINING have always been and are still overpriced like crazy!

Deprived

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Quote from: FloatesMcgoates on September 23, 2013, 10:44:48 AM

How will the value of the ciphermine bonds be calculated for the purposes of the upcoming SELLING dividend?

Short answer is it doesn't matter - as difficulty isn't going to stop rising soon.

For now it'll be listed in the books as full value - and dividends paid accordingly. Those trading SELLING need to apply whatever (if any) discount they believe is appropriate - I won't (and can't) force a market valuation on them, all I can do it do my best to provide as much information as possible for everyone to accurate as best they can.

I won't be personally trading at all for now - as it would be unfair for me to do so given that I may posses slightly more information than the rest of you. For the record I personally hold something like 15-20K SELLING and 0 MINING right now (can't remember exact numbers but it's in that area).

FloatesMcgoates

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How will the value of the ciphermine bonds be calculated for the purposes of the upcoming SELLING dividend?

Deprived

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Quote from: FloatesMcgoates on September 23, 2013, 09:56:24 AM

SELLING should bear the brunt of the NAV/u decline as a result of investment losses, correct?

Yes. Any loss from investments falls on SELLING (unless it zeroed SELLING - which can't possibly be the case at traded prices).

The LTC-ATF.B1 is cashed out and sitting in a wallet controlled by me.
The J-D was divested (and of course the whale then lost some back - but I posted the balance at time of divestment which can be proven from J-D records if necessary) and will be withdrawn as soon as dooglus is around at same time as me.
The last Coinlenders CD runs out in a few days at which point it'll be withdrawn.
It's only really the ~360 BTC of Ciphermine bonds that aren't at present properly determined in terms of status. And there's no reason to believe those will lose significant value - though I obviously can't rule that out.

Until there's clarity on the status of the Ciphermine bonds I can't reopen sales of PURCHASE or redemptions - as I don't want to allow massive trades in both directions based upon a guess, as that could end up with someone losing out without having done anything wrong.

I WOULD recommend NOT to panic sell - worst case is pretty much that the CIphermine bonds are worth zero (and that's HIGHLY unlikely) so noone should sell at a discount below that. Once I have the Coinlenders CD cash back as well I'll offer a cashout at that rate if prices on the market have fallen stupidly - as that can't cost anyone else anything and prevents total desperation sales. Such a buyback would, of course, be for pairs of MINING/SELLING (or PURCHASE).

Lohoris

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Bitgoblin

I totally don't trust Bitfunder, both for the laughable security bugs found in the past, and for the terribile terrible step of using the horrible weExchange (worse than the inputs.io crap to use coinlenders, lol).

That said, I'm no longer holding DMS shares, simply because I think they matched their real value now, so my opinion in this matter shouldn't have as much weight as that of someone who still has them.

Let's say that if DMS moves to Havelock I might trade it again if in future the price becomes inbalanced again and I see opportunity for profit, while if it moves to Bitfunder I won't touch it no matter what.

Ashitank

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I prefer bitfunder over havelock , may be as more securities moves over to bitfunder We-exchange credit time will be reduced in future but I think it is overall a batter trading platform than havelock.

FloatesMcgoates

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SELLING should bear the brunt of the NAV/u decline as a result of investment losses, correct?

Deprived

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Quote from: Rannasha on September 23, 2013, 08:50:07 AM

Quote from: Deprived on September 23, 2013, 08:48:30 AM

IF DMS does relist, where would people prefer?

If you decide on relisting, you can put up a motion for all DMS shareholders. I agree that only Havelock and Bitfunder are viable options.

edit: On another matter: Could you let us know if there is any news regarding the CIPHERMINE bonds that DMS holds? With LTC-ATF.B2 bought back and the JD investment withdrawn, the CIPHERMINE bonds make up the only uncertain factor in the NAV of DMS and it would be good to know how to properly value the shares being traded.

No news on that yet - believe Kate got married this weekend so not expecting any proper resolution of that immediately. Would assume she'll sort out what's happening with Ciphermine itself first - then what happens with the bond will naturally follow on from there. Under the contract I COULD give notice now that I want cash back in 3 months time (and forfeit all interest in the meantime) but I'd prefer to wait a bit and see what happens before doing anything drastic like that. A more friendly solution would be better for all involved : if Ciphermine and the bonds relist elsewhere then we can probably sell on the market at or above face value faster without causing unnecessary grief for Ciphermine (and collect interest in the interim).

If clear direction is provided and I rate the risk low enough then, if DMS closes rather than moves, I could cash out the last chunk to speed the process up a bit. But bailing out the whole 360 BTC myself isn't an option.

At present I'm not attempting to sell below face value at all. I DID sell 9 BTC worth last night/early this morning at a bit over face value:

2013-09-23 06:43:28    Market Sell    200    ฿ 0.01027    ฿ 2.054
2013-09-23 06:43:27    Market Sell    400    ฿ 0.01027    ฿ 4.108
2013-09-23 06:43:26    Market Sell    89    ฿ 0.01028    ฿ 0.91492
2013-09-23 06:43:26    Market Sell    1    ฿ 0.01029    ฿ 0.01029
2013-09-23 06:43:25    Market Sell    200    ฿ 0.0103    ฿ 2.06

Those were our sales - not too long before the announcement it seems : I've been trying to reduce positions where I can since it became apparent last week that this was a significant possibility. I didn't expect it quite so quickly however - and wasn't sure whether close-down was on the books or just getting rid of US investors/issuers. I didn't sell any of our LTC-ATF bonds (or my own) as I knew face value was safe on those.

Deprived

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Deprived on September 23, 2013, 08:48:30 AM

MPEx isn't a valid option as most investors won't have accounts there - and there'd be no point relisting somewhere that most people couldn't access their shares.

They can have accounts on CoinBr.

I like CoinBR but there's a few problem with it which mean I can't consider it for this:

1. Monthly maintenance fee - many investors have tiny holdings which, if they want to sell, would get eaten by the fee.
2. Large withdrawal fee (0.1 BTC from memory). If I relist I have a responsibility to ensure ALL my investors can get their cash out fine.
3. No ability for inter-account transfers on CoinBR - that's the killer as DMS NEEDS that (and for it to be free) to function.

If I decided to move DMS to MPEx then it would have to be a brand new version - not a transfer of the existing one.

Deprived

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Quote from: Progressive on September 23, 2013, 08:54:56 AM

Also there are different fees:
Bitfunder: 0% for buying, 1% for selling (less if you have turnover 50+ BTC)
Havelock 0% for buying, 0.4% for selling (total is the same as BTCT)

I would prefer Havelock.

I believe Havelock also has a maintenance fee for issuers - based on market-cap of the security. Not totally sure on that though.

I'll sling up non-binding motions to get a feel for whether there's a very strong preference for either of them.

Vezunchik

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bitcoin is an expression of freedom.

Also note that this issue still wasn't solved. If DMS will be on site with Ukyo as admin there will be problems again, I am sure.

Quote from: guitarplinker on September 23, 2013, 08:57:52 AM

Quote from: Progressive on September 23, 2013, 08:54:56 AM

Also there are different fees:
Bitfunder: 0% for buying, 1% for selling (less if you have turnover 50+ BTC)
Havelock 0% for buying, 0.4% for selling (total is the same as BTCT)

I would prefer Havelock.

And BitFunder has a messed up way of crediting your wallet, all the coins have to go through WebEx first. :/

cw92

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Don't know if this is a legitimate issue, but I'm wondering if any of the other exchanges could have problems handling the extra volume if they accept a lot of new securities from BTCT?

Topic: [BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 38. (Read 198958 times)