Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM - page 131. (Read 415663 times)
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Oh look, a BFL thread on Bitcointalk with the same old tripe and baseless arguments by trolls. I don't think many of you claiming they are a Ponzi scheme actually know what one is and I'm not sure the people who claim they have been mining with your orders know how to read the network hashrate charts. It would be completely transparent if they were mining as it would add a crap-ton of hashing power to the network. Sure, BFL has experienced delays but calling them incompetent is one thing, but calling them a scam/Ponzi is an entirely different and more serious charge. If you own a BFL preorder and don't feel comfortable with it, ask them for a refund and they will most likely comply as they have been doing for everyone else, from what I've seen. If you don't have a BFL preorder, then quit repeating the same baseless accusations over and over again. It's really as simple as that.
The only way we could prove it is to have BTC break, then everyone will demand a refund. And BFL would be able to refund each and every one of them. =)
Btw, I'm a "sucker" who got into it July-October. As uncomfortable I am with having made an investment that has yet to show promise, I'm more uncomfortable in taking it back, after the fact. It's a catch-22 where I get to watch Josh molest my "investment" before I get what I might have paid for.
Okay. So Josh made a bet for a 1000 BTC, lost, and is now doing his usual spin. BFL is donating 100,000 to BTC "charitY".
I do not know how they aren't under full investigation right now.
I do not know how they aren't under full investigation right now.
HA! very nice point. such statements could very possibly be libel... but that would be up to a court to decide. :p
Even if the statements were defamatory you'd have to prove damages if you expected to get anything out of it. Given the cost of taking a lawsuit to trial (not even considering the fact that there would likely be conflict issues) and that even if they obtained judgment they'd be unlikely to collect anything significant from the average person (ie: not a company with lots of money/assets to seize) I highly doubt the average keyboard commando has to worry about a big defamation suit.
I mean besides porn isn't slander and misinformation what the internet is all about?
So, Butterfly Labs wants to convince us that with 5 of these toasters:
https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/50-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html
We can produce the hash rate of pyramining, that use this hardware:
https://www.bitcoin-italia.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=85
lol
https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/50-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html
We can produce the hash rate of pyramining, that use this hardware:
https://www.bitcoin-italia.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=85
lol
There is just too much 'unknowns' with BFL.. The fact that all 'reviewers' that received their units, also have 'pre-order now' links does not give much confidence!
As long as there is some profit to be made I will mine...to cover my hardware costs.
I'm sure the people standing in line at Jonestown for their cyanide-laced Flavor-Aid had similar hopes.
Buy the Avalon ASIC chips. Problem solved.
they are using the client money for their own investments and for their own mining.
According to you (and many others). There's no factual evidence of that I've ever seen someone share in these threads yet. Just assumptions and opinions. (Or maybe projecting what they would do themselves in BFL's shoes.) Maybe the people who can't understand the definition of a Ponzi scheme should look up "libel" and see if that one is more clear.
HA! very nice point. such statements could very possibly be libel... but that would be up to a court to decide. :p
they are using the client money for their own investments and for their own mining.
According to you (and many others). There's no factual evidence of that I've ever seen someone share in these threads yet. Just assumptions and opinions. (Or maybe projecting what they would do themselves in BFL's shoes.) Maybe the people who can't understand the definition of a Ponzi scheme should look up "libel" and see if that one is more clear.
they are using the client money for their own investments and for their own mining.
The part of the fraud is the part of the Ponzi. In this sense, it is an aspect of potential BFL schematic. But it doesn't mean it isn't going to contribute positive too. The less the better, obviously.
And because Moses is can man see through his eye, and who knows the limits of empathy? Only infinite possibilities of expression. Who is not "I am"?
First line of Wikipedia
Quote
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.
Dude, don't try to use facts and logic to convince Charie; Charlie is immune to logic and facts just bounce right off him.
If the item was paid for using a customer's money who is after in queue, then effectively, it is a ponzi scheme. Jut because there is snake oil in the equation does not mean that there is not fraud. Of course nobody would want to hear what a lawyer has to say.
Moses was a man, all men are mortal, therefore all men are Moses?
Just because there is fraud* doesn't not imply a Ponzi scheme. Do words mean anything to people anymore?
*This is a generalization. I am not saying there is or is not in the case of BFL.
There have been pictures of people unpacking the jalepenos and stuff.
So, I doubt it's all vaporware.
I'm thinking of ordering one myself, once I get my rigs all stable.
So, I doubt it's all vaporware.
I'm thinking of ordering one myself, once I get my rigs all stable.
First line of Wikipedia
Quote
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.
Dude, don't try to use facts and logic to convince Charie; Charlie is immune to logic and facts just bounce right off him.
If the item was paid for using a customer's money who is after in queue, then effectively, it is a ponzi scheme. Jut because there is snake oil in the equation does not mean that there is not fraud. Of course nobody would want to hear what a lawyer has to say.
Saw this eBay listing for "use" of his BFL...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-GH-s-Bitcoin-Mining-for-3-months-24-7-BitForce-Butterfly-Labs-/151034831885?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item232a60a40d
This seems to be some dude trying to hedge his bet against his BFL being shipped to him after it has become unprofitable.
Note at the bottom:
"9) Your mining will start when we get our equipment all set up and working "
Gotta love it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-GH-s-Bitcoin-Mining-for-3-months-24-7-BitForce-Butterfly-Labs-/151034831885?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item232a60a40d
This seems to be some dude trying to hedge his bet against his BFL being shipped to him after it has become unprofitable.
Note at the bottom:
"9) Your mining will start when we get our equipment all set up and working "
Gotta love it.
Wikipedia's definition isn't cannon:
http://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-ponzi.shtml
If I promise you something for amount XYZ and I need a future investor to deliver it and then another another for that investor, I have committed fraud. You can code it anyway you like, it isn't self-sustaining nor ends well for the vast majority of people involved.
But I'm done with this debate. I've had my say and so did Josh. I won't post in this thread anymore.
http://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-ponzi.shtml
If I promise you something for amount XYZ and I need a future investor to deliver it and then another another for that investor, I have committed fraud. You can code it anyway you like, it isn't self-sustaining nor ends well for the vast majority of people involved.
But I'm done with this debate. I've had my say and so did Josh. I won't post in this thread anymore.
Replace money with product.
You can't as it's part of the definition. It's like saying stealing an apple is grand-theft-auto if you replace "Car" with "fruit".
Replace money with product. If I sell something that doesn't exist and I spend all my money trying to develop it, then I don't have enough money to actually built it once its finished. Thus I need more money to service the original orders. And then I need more money to service the new orders. The circle doesn't stop. Unless you make enough money in profit to recoup the original R&D cost. But they are committed to developing the minirig which will likely put them further in the red.
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