Pages:
Author

Topic: Classic or Core? Which one is better? (Read 4868 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
April 03, 2016, 04:42:43 AM
Would it kill us to just *announce* an intent to release a version with 2MB (or even just 1.1MB) block size limit?

Yes, it would kill Bitcoin to reward the whining of the rage-quit brigade.  Thanks for asking!







LOL, the Monero troll quotes Adam the late adopter who bought@alltime high:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/44qr31/gregory_maxwell_unullc_has_evidently_never_heard/czsthhg

Thanks for demonstrating my point by showing us an example of the rage-quit brigade whining I was talking about.

If Bitcoin ever changes due to such nonsense (in which you malign a man cited by Satoshi's Whitepaper), it deserves to die.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
April 03, 2016, 02:16:52 AM
Sth more that speaks for a 2MB HF this spring

http://youtu.be/_NgFIj9dBkQ
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
April 02, 2016, 03:36:17 PM
Would it kill us to just *announce* an intent to release a version with 2MB (or even just 1.1MB) block size limit?

Yes, it would kill Bitcoin to reward the whining of the rage-quit brigade.  Thanks for asking!







LOL, the Monero troll quotes Adam the late adopter who bought@alltime high:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/44qr31/gregory_maxwell_unullc_has_evidently_never_heard/czsthhg
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
April 02, 2016, 03:03:54 PM
One of the intellectual fathers of Bit coin, Luke Jr, sees that blocks are full of mostly spam, they could be cut in half (0.5MB) to better serve the purpose of uncensorable monies. Poors and spammers may use doge. 

The only problem is this decission comes from artifical block size limit which is centralized regulation decision about the max block size.

Satoshi was a central planner, setting the 21 million coin limit with controlled inflation. Engineering is centrally planned. I agree that we would probably be better off if the limit had been set at 0.5MB, but since such a consensus change would obviously be contentious, no one has ever actually bothered writing the code. Classic supporters, on the other hand, are willing to force their changes on people like me, without any real metric to even measure user support. (No, hash power does not say anything about my willingness to support bigger blocks as a user and node operator)

If this value comes from free market, ie no miner wanting to create block sizes over 0.5MB (or whatever size), then this would be fine.

How so? Different miners can set different soft limits. But without a defined hard limit, Miner A can publish a block that violates Miner B's soft limit. Miner B will reject the block. Consider that Miner A has a majority of hash power. Fairly soon then, Miner A's chain will be longer. But since Miner B rejected one of Miner A's oversized blocks (which is still being mined on top of), both miners will be working on two disparate chains. In this way, the network(s) can continue to fork endlessly since there is no agreement on rule enforcement.

"Longest" doesn't mean anything on its own. The only thing that matters is the "longest valid chain." Validity is determined by consensus rules. Even if there is no consensus on a block size limit, that doesn't stop anyone from rejecting blocks on that basis. If one miner accepts that block and builds on it, and another miner rejects it, "longest" chain loses any meaning. The latter miner will never accept the longer invalid chain.

There is not consensus on block size limit today. With Bitcoin Unlimited many people would accept over 1 MB blocks even today.

There is consensus because the network enforces a 1MB limit. That's a consensus rule. Even Classic is enforcing it.

Bitcoin Unlimited would cause a new chain fork to emerge every time a block was published that disagreed with one network's consensus rules, but not its own. If Node A enforces 1MB, Node B enforces 2MB, Node C enforces 8MB and Node D (Unlimited) enforces no limit, this results in at least 3 chain forks--with a new fork for every new limit that emerges that is higher than the last. What possible good can come from that? "Freedom of block size?" Well it results in chain forks and no more single global ledger called "Bitcoin."

The only reason miners dont mine over 1 MB blocks today is because they act rationally, most nodes (thus Bitcoin services) would reject such block and the chance to keep longest chain with mined over 1 MB block is zero today.

And how much of their rationale stems from the fact that they know the network is enforcing a 1MB hard limit?

If there is no limit, how do they agree on what limit (if any) to enforce? How do they know what network nodes will be willing to relay (hence what users are willing to accept)? Any disagreement can easily result in a chain fork.

The market suggests that people are rational, but it certainly doesn't suggest that rational actors must be correct. If they are incorrect, in this case, we will chain fork into multiple networks.

BTW Bitcoin Unlimited is very underestimated client, with good features and development. Definitively worth considering when your undecided whether run Core or Classic.

IIRC even BU developers have admitted that their code is not sufficiently regression tested. Hardly any peer review and no reason to assume the code is thoroughly audited by experts in network security, cryptography, qualified systems/database engineers. Thin blocks is a cool idea, but unfortunately users report that there are widespread data gaps, and technical criticisms say its relay savings can't compete with the relay network, so it's not an adequate replacement for it.
sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
April 02, 2016, 10:26:28 AM
One of the intellectual fathers of Bit coin, Luke Jr, sees that blocks are full of mostly spam, they could be cut in half (0.5MB) to better serve the purpose of uncensorable monies. Poors and spammers may use doge. 

The only problem is this decission comes from artifical block size limit which is centralized regulation decision about the max block size. If this value comes from free market, ie no miner wanting to create block sizes over 0.5MB (or whatever size), then this would be fine.


"Longest" doesn't mean anything on its own. The only thing that matters is the "longest valid chain." Validity is determined by consensus rules. Even if there is no consensus on a block size limit, that doesn't stop anyone from rejecting blocks on that basis. If one miner accepts that block and builds on it, and another miner rejects it, "longest" chain loses any meaning. The latter miner will never accept the longer invalid chain.


There is not consensus on block size limit today. With Bitcoin Unlimited many people would accept over 1 MB blocks even today. The only reason miners dont mine over 1 MB blocks today is because they act rationally, most nodes (thus Bitcoin services) would reject such block and the chance to keep longest chain with mined over 1 MB block is zero today.

BTW Bitcoin Unlimited is very underestimated client, with good features and development. Definitively worth considering when your undecided whether run Core or Classic.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
April 02, 2016, 02:12:32 AM
its been fun, altho i disagree with your position I respect all of you, even the poeple that seemed like assholes at the time, i was attacking their belief system, their arger is to be expected...
goodbye.
If you want a corporation coin, then you are free to fork-off now. I'm pretty certain that the majority of people here hate the idea of a corporation coin (i.e. especially Bitcoin 'morphing' into one).

'Classic or Core? Which one is better?'
ha! like it's even a question...
It would be a question if Classic had a decent team of developers which it doesn't.

One of the intellectual fathers of Bit coin, Luke Jr, sees that blocks are full of mostly spam..
He ain't wrong at times.
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
April 01, 2016, 11:50:16 PM
On the block size increase small scale miners will be much affected.

I agree.

Some small miners are on solar and micro hydro, and they run solo mines, but have somewhat spotty bandwidth.

But increase is needed as high user adoption is taking place regularly.

I agree, adoption is happening. Why does that suggest we should increase block size?

One of the intellectual fathers of Bit coin, Luke Jr, sees that blocks are full of mostly spam, they could be cut in half (0.5MB) to better serve the purpose of uncensorable monies. Poors and spammers may use doge. 
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
April 01, 2016, 11:27:14 PM
On the block size increase small scale miners will be much affected.

I agree.

But increase is needed as high user adoption is taking place regularly.

I agree, adoption is happening. Why does that suggest we should increase block size?
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
April 01, 2016, 10:52:26 PM
There is no better, I believe both teams are trying to do what they believe to be best. I think the biggest problem is they both have different visions, which is ok  Smiley It's ok to disagree but at the end of the day it's important to take stock of all stakeholders and the ethos of what Bitcoin is or perhaps what Bitcoin isn't.

It's important to remember just because we disagree doesn't mean we're on different teams. All of the core/classic stuff, it's all bullshit, all of it. Everyone will look back at this as a small and minor disagreement. Oh and if you think we're done disagreeing, I've got news for you, we're not.

We all want the same thing and while we might disagree about how to get there, we're all on the same team.

Team Bitcoin
hero member
Activity: 2310
Merit: 532
Enterapp Pre-Sale Live - bit.ly/3UrMCWI
April 01, 2016, 10:27:03 PM
The debate for classic and core has been running for a long time. On the block size increase small scale miners will be much affected. But increase is needed as high user adoption is taking place regularly.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
I AM A SCAMMER
April 01, 2016, 08:09:16 PM
prepare for the delirious Lauda to spout his classic doomsdays to try defending why blockstream should win peoples blind faith.

hint. if he tells you classic data bloat of 2mb(4000tx potential) will be too much for the network, tell him his dream of 1mbmaxblocksize+segwit+confidential payment codes = 2.85mb for 3800 transaction potential.

hint. if he tells you it will reduce full node count. tell him his dream of people who usually download core are now prefering pruned mode, and soon no witness mode, will be by far more of a risk to the dilution of true full nodes

hint. if he tells you onchain transactions cannot compete against visa's authorization network. tell him uᴉoɔʇᴉq has 2.5mill users not 900mill(visa quotes). so does not need to be exactly like visa in the next couple years. also the stats about visa's tx/s is based on a lab test of selective 'authorization' equipment in a mock lab test. and then the results multiplied in a flawed manner to the amount of systems they have dotted around the world. also worth highlighting i said it a few times.. the stats are on the AUTHORIZATION network. not the settlement network. so it should not be used in relation to blocks.

hint if he tells you that classic is headed up by a corporations. tell him that core is too (blockstream, ergo PwC, ergo many financial firms, banks)

hint if he tells you that only a couple people are employed by blockstream. tell him to explain the finances of how the $55million is to be spend by supposedly only 2-3 people

hint. if he tells you that its just a shill game and he tries to speak latin. tell him he fails latin. jst like he fails C++, by thinking uᴉoɔʇᴉq core writes its code in java if he read the code he would know its not java. he is simply guessing and needing to be spoonfed info

Thanks for all the hints. I got a kick out of them. I've already been running Classic and think multiple bitcoin clients is good regardless of which one takes the lead right now.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
March 30, 2016, 09:47:46 PM
my opinion is not appreciated   Cry

goodbye.   Cry

legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 07:08:45 PM
Actually, the limit specifically prevents any disagreement over what constitutes a valid block in regards to size. Without that limit, the entire network must trust all miners to never disagree on the size of blocks they are willing to validate and relay.

You dont need trust all minners use the same maximum block size they are willing to validate and relay, because there will be always only one longest chain called Bitcoin

No there won't be. "Longest" doesn't mean anything on its own. The only thing that matters is the "longest valid chain." Validity is determined by consensus rules. Even if there is no consensus on a block size limit, that doesn't stop anyone from rejecting blocks on that basis. If one miner accepts that block and builds on it, and another miner rejects it, "longest" chain loses any meaning. The latter miner will never accept the longer invalid chain.

thats the beauty of PoW and selfish interest of miners to build only on top of longest chain, otherwise their just building worthless chain and miners will quickly learn the hard way to dont build worthless chains for whatever reason, like limiting only to 1 MB.

If a majority of miners fork the rules to add 84 million coins to the supply, who is building on the worthless chain? The ones who broke the rules, or the ones who stayed on the original chain? Okay--now apply that to your example.

You should not be afraid some miners might temporary build on top of smaller chains because of their software having disagreement over what constitutes a valid block in regards to size, because they will learn the hard way by producing worthless blocks, thus they are encouraged to build on top of longest chain only next time (after they realize their mistake).

What evidence do you have that there could not be more than one worthy network to mine on? As long as it is profitable, a rational miner will do so.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 103
March 30, 2016, 07:06:51 PM
'Classic or Core? Which one is better?'

ha! like it's even a question...


'Segnet4, the latest Segwit test network is live, with support for Lightning Network development!'

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cjxnh/segnet4_the_latest_segwit_test_network_is_live/?ref=share&ref_source=link

'CSV softfork is merged to Bitcoin Core'

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cmsji/csv_softfork_is_merged_to_bitcoin_core/?ref=share&ref_source=link


legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
March 30, 2016, 06:44:12 PM
Actually, the limit specifically prevents any disagreement over what constitutes a valid block in regards to size. Without that limit, the entire network must trust all miners to never disagree on the size of blocks they are willing to validate and relay.

You dont need trust all minners use the same maximum block size they are willing to validate and relay, because there will be always only one longest chain called Bitcoin, thats the beauty of PoW and selfish interest of miners to build only on top of longest chain, otherwise their just building worthless chain and miners will quickly learn the hard way to dont build worthless chains for whatever reason, like limiting only to 1 MB.

You should not be afraid some miners might temporary build on top of smaller chains because of their software having disagreement over what constitutes a valid block in regards to size, because they will learn the hard way by producing worthless blocks, thus they are encouraged to build on top of longest chain only next time (after they realize their mistake).


I realize i am in the minority and my opinion is not appreciated, and will never be accepted by this crowd...

I dont think your minority, people tend to post when they disagree, at least I do.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
March 30, 2016, 06:38:39 PM
I realize i am in the minority and my opinion is not appreciated, and will never be accepted by this crowd... i'm going to leave you guys to your own devices.
bitcoin IS what YOU want it to be. who am i to disagree?
truly sorry for the endless debating, i had to at least try.
its been fun, altho i disagree with your position I respect all of you, even the poeple that seemed like assholes at the time, i was attacking their belief system, their arger is to be expected...
goodbye.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 06:35:12 PM
you've convinced me. in order to make life fair we need rules which level the playing field

decentralization is the key to victory, if a there are no miners in africa bitcoin will fail!

Ah, the classic reduction to "omg socialism." Face it: bitcoin is centrally planned. Satoshi was the greatest of all central planners, for he established the money supply of 21 million coins, with controlled inflation. Can't separate engineering from planning.

You can accept that decentralization is a goal to be achieved, or not. If the truth is that you don't care at all how centralized mining becomes (therefore how much control a single entity or cartel may have over all users, include the power to double spend)... then you should come out and say it.

i did!  Cheesy

Okay, so you want all control over the network to be centralized among a few corporations. No thanks. We fundamentally disagree about what bitcoin is, and I will never be swayed to support such horrible, useless ideas.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
March 30, 2016, 06:30:26 PM
you've convinced me. in order to make life fair we need rules which level the playing field

decentralization is the key to victory, if a there are no miners in africa bitcoin will fail!

Ah, the classic reduction to "omg socialism." Face it: bitcoin is centrally planned. Satoshi was the greatest of all central planners, for he established the money supply of 21 million coins, with controlled inflation. Can't separate engineering from planning.

You can accept that decentralization is a goal to be achieved, or not. If the truth is that you don't care at all how centralized mining becomes (therefore how much control a single entity or cartel may have over all users, include the power to double spend)... then you should come out and say it.

i did!  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 06:28:15 PM
you've convinced me. in order to make life fair we need rules which level the playing field

decentralization is the key to victory, if a there are no miners in africa bitcoin will fail!

Ah, the classic reduction to "omg socialism." Face it: bitcoin is centrally planned. Satoshi was the greatest of all central planners, for he established the money supply of 21 million coins, with controlled inflation. Can't separate engineering from planning.

You can accept that decentralization is a goal to be achieved, or not. If the truth is that you don't care at all how centralized mining becomes (therefore how much control a single entity or cartel may have over all users, include the power to double spend)... then you should come out and say it.
Pages:
Jump to: