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Topic: [CLOSED] Bitmine CoinCraft A1 28nm chip distribution / DIY support - page 19. (Read 81190 times)

hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
RFC: Lower bound SPI transfer Volume Estimation for A1 Chip Chains

I have been asked from different parties what the maximum chain length of the A1 chips is, and while the specs limits the addressable number of chips to 254, I tried to approach the potential limit from the communication side.

To have the chip continuously hashing, for each nonce range the absolute minimum command sequence consists of
  • 1x 07 to send the job; command length: 30 words
  • 1x 08 to get the result; command length: 4 words
    Note: this is the average - some jobs have more than one result, others have zero
  • 1x 0a to get the queue state; command length: 5 words
    Note: this is the absolute minimum, might need to cycle poll

To get a command pushed through the chain of M chips, we need to push
  • 2M words for broadcast commands
  • 2N-1 words for unicast commands to chip N

With that, the number of word to write per job to chip N in a M-chip chain is
 (30 + 2N - 1) + (4 + 2M) + (5 + 2N - 1)
= (29 + 2N) + (4 + 2M) + (4 + 2N)
= 37 + 4N + 2M

For all chips in chain of M chips:
W = sum(N = 1..M) {37 + 4N + 2M}
  = M * (37 + 2M) + 4 * (M * (M + 1) / 2)
  = 37M + 2M^2 + 2M^2 + 2M
  = 4M^2 + 39M
  = M * (4M + 39)

For the ease of calculations, we assume W = 4M * (M + 10)

The lower bound of required words W to transmit for continuous hashing a chain of M chips with that is
 1: 44
  2: 96
  4: 224
  8: 576
 10: 800
 16: 1664
 20: 2400
 32: 5376
 40: 8000
 64: 18944
 80: 28800
128: 70656


A chip running at 800MHz finishes a nonce range in 4/25 seconds or 160ms.

Assuming an SPI duty cycle of D = 20% (polling causes idle times) the minimum SPI host clock to serve a chain of M chips is

W * 16 * 1/D * 1000 / 160 = W * 500Hz

Minimum host SPI clock frequency to operate a chain of M chips:
 1: 0.02MHz
 4: 0.11MHz
 8: 0.29MHz
16: 0.83MHz
32: 2.69MHz
40: 4.00MHz
64: 9.47MHz

At 800MHz core clock, the A1 internal SPI clock is 12.5MHz. Since it is required to keep external SPI clock below internal, we shall assume 64 chips to be the upper bound chain length to try.


Please review and let me know if something is wrong.




Having our guys have a look will respond this weekend. Thanks for the info Zefir.

----

[edit] Looks ok from what our EE said. Carry ON!
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
hi all

i wrote this week a mail on bitmine for a 500 Chips order. Answer:

"Dear Mr XX XXXXX,
There no more delays for the chips.
If you order them this week,then will be ready for shipping the last week of January,
depending on the shipping method that you will choose,they will arrive to you from 2 to 5 days after the part from our warehouse."

@Zefir
Is that the same batch you get?


AFAIK, my order is the very first chip order, so yes, that should be the same.

But frankly speaking: after the recent experiences I made with the habits in global chip business (I don't refer to Bitmine who themselves are only customers), I won't bet on ETAs or expectations given. The chains are that long that you need only one person within that chain to miss his bus to work and your ETAs become moot. That's why I stopped asking for delivery dates - chips will be here when they will be here.

This is not meant to discourage your efforts, just saying that it is not advised to order PCB assembly slots based solely on the expected dates given.
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
RFC: Lower bound SPI transfer Volume Estimation for A1 Chip Chains

I have been asked from different parties what the maximum chain length of the A1 chips is, and while the specs limits the addressable number of chips to 254, I tried to approach the potential limit from the communication side.

To have the chip continuously hashing, for each nonce range the absolute minimum command sequence consists of
  • 1x 07 to send the job; command length: 30 words
  • 1x 08 to get the result; command length: 4 words
    Note: this is the average - some jobs have more than one result, others have zero
  • 1x 0a to get the queue state; command length: 5 words
    Note: this is the absolute minimum, might need to cycle poll

To get a command pushed through the chain of M chips, we need to push
  • 2M words for broadcast commands
  • 2N-1 words for unicast commands to chip N

With that, the number of word to write per job to chip N in a M-chip chain is
  (30 + 2N - 1) + (4 + 2M) + (5 + 2N - 1)
= (29 + 2N) + (4 + 2M) + (4 + 2N)
= 37 + 4N + 2M

For all chips in chain of M chips:
W = sum(N = 1..M) {37 + 4N + 2M}
  = M * (37 + 2M) + 4 * (M * (M + 1) / 2)
  = 37M + 2M^2 + 2M^2 + 2M
  = 4M^2 + 39M
  = M * (4M + 39)

For the ease of calculations, we assume W = 4M * (M + 10)

The lower bound of required words W to transmit for continuous hashing a chain of M chips with that is
  1: 44
  2: 96
  4: 224
  8: 576
 10: 800
 16: 1664
 20: 2400
 32: 5376
 40: 8000
 64: 18944
 80: 28800
128: 70656


A chip running at 800MHz finishes a nonce range in 4/25 seconds or 160ms.

Assuming an SPI duty cycle of D = 20% (polling causes idle times) the minimum SPI host clock to serve a chain of M chips is

W * 16 * 1/D * 1000 / 160 = W * 500Hz

Minimum host SPI clock frequency to operate a chain of M chips:
 1: 0.02MHz
 4: 0.11MHz
 8: 0.29MHz
16: 0.83MHz
32: 2.69MHz
40: 4.00MHz
64: 9.47MHz

At 800MHz core clock, the A1 internal SPI clock is 12.5MHz. Since it is required to keep external SPI clock below internal, we shall assume 64 chips to be the upper bound chain length to try.


Please review and let me know if something is wrong.


full member
Activity: 163
Merit: 100
hi all

i wrote this week a mail on bitmine for a 500 Chips order. Answer:

"Dear Mr XX XXXXX,
There no more delays for the chips.
If you order them this week,then will be ready for shipping the last week of January,
depending on the shipping method that you will choose,they will arrive to you from 2 to 5 days after the part from our warehouse."

@Zefir
Is that the same batch you get?
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
do you think Chinese New Year will add further delays to chips/units?

Well, if that happens my chip order runs into the 60+ days delay window given by the CPP and I will have the choice to take the full refund instead. I don't want to speculate on that, since still my hopes are to get supplied soon.
legendary
Activity: 1378
Merit: 1003
nec sine labore

No further news about delivery dates of chips in volumes - still expecting them this month.

Cheers,
zefir

Hi zefir,

do you think Chinese New Year will add further delays to chips/units?

spiccioli
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
My apologies guys.

I should have followed up on this as well to make sure all the docs were properly revised I just assumed that it was all corrected.

How goes it Zefir...

Quote
At that frequencies and with so much heavy power around, getting this part stable is not exactly trivial.

Would that require a board redesign do you think?

Maybe you want to chat with our EE on Teamspeak this Saturday he might be able to give some insight into how we are trying to handle that.
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
The pdf on the github you linked to (CoinCraft+A1.pdf, size 1454.789 kb) on page 16 shows dimension e (the pad to pad pitch for the IO) as 0.4BSC (0.4mm). In the image intron and Bick posted, it's listed as 0.5BSC (0.5mm) which is what the package actually is.
I was just checking that since I was sure I have the last version:)

BTW are 50 chips slot available at the moment or are you sold out. Or is everything on hold?

On hold until chip delivery - everything else makes no sense.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
The pdf on the github you linked to (CoinCraft+A1.pdf, size 1454.789 kb) on page 16 shows dimension e (the pad to pad pitch for the IO) as 0.4BSC (0.4mm). In the image intron and Bick posted, it's listed as 0.5BSC (0.5mm) which is what the package actually is.
I was just checking that since I was sure I have the last version:)

BTW are 50 chips slot available at the moment or are you sold out. Or is everything on hold?
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
The pdf on the github you linked to (CoinCraft+A1.pdf, size 1454.789 kb) on page 16 shows dimension e (the pad to pad pitch for the IO) as 0.4BSC (0.4mm). In the image intron and Bick posted, it's listed as 0.5BSC (0.5mm) which is what the package actually is.

Aaargh, too tired to notice the difference. You're right, which means something went really wrong with keeping the docs up-to-date Sad  Will push to fix.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Folks,

sorry for the troubles and not getting back in time, but I have a tough fight with the A1 which takes every minute of my time.

First for the documentation: the picture intron posted above is exactly the one included in the latest spec document (https://github.com/bitmine-ch/bitmine/tree/master/Specs), or do I miss something? Please ignore other versions of that document, Bitmine did some modifications on packaging following community feedback after their initial post of the specs and updated the git repository.

As for the status of my fight: the chip hashes as expected - with proper cooling I got it running at 800MHz / 25GHps. What is more challenging is the chip-chaining, which in the current eval boards used for bring-up is unstable. The chips use their own SPI clock that is derived from system clock with a clock divider of 64 or 128. At that frequencies and with so much heavy power around, getting this part stable is not exactly trivial. I successfully run a 16-chip chain at lower clocks (somewhere around 250MHz), which proves that the chaining mechanism works in general, so all work left is to tweak the layout and get it operational at full speed.


Not sure how far your design is and whether you started testing, but I guess everyone else following this thread is eager to hear about results from independent parties.


No further news about delivery dates of chips in volumes - still expecting them this month.


Cheers,
zefir
The pdf on the github you linked to (CoinCraft+A1.pdf, size 1454.789 kb) on page 16 shows dimension e (the pad to pad pitch for the IO) as 0.4BSC (0.4mm). In the image intron and Bick posted, it's listed as 0.5BSC (0.5mm) which is what the package actually is.

I emailed them to let them know, hopefully they pull it ASAP and correct it, in case anyone is about the send boards off to be made. You might want to PM everyone who got sample chips if they haven't posted here to point it out in case they don't know yet.
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
There are two version of the documenatation:
one with 0.4 mm pitch and with 0.5 mm pitch.
I was confused also, so I waited for the samples
to arrive before sending the boards out. And I
was wrong, had to redo the A1 footprint.

Can you provide the link to the updated pdf, and are there any other changes?

No idea how to upload a PDF. Hope this helps:


Folks,

sorry for the troubles and not getting back in time, but I have a tough fight with the A1 which takes every minute of my time.

Edit: see posts below
First for the documentation: the picture intron posted above is exactly the one included in the latest spec document (https://github.com/bitmine-ch/bitmine/tree/master/Specs), or do I miss something? Please ignore other versions of that document, Bitmine did some modifications on packaging following community feedback after their initial post of the specs and updated the git repository.

As for the status of my fight: the chip hashes as expected - with proper cooling I got it running at 800MHz / 25GHps. What is more challenging is the chip-chaining, which in the current eval boards used for bring-up is unstable. The chips use their own SPI clock that is derived from system clock with a clock divider of 64 or 128. At that frequencies and with so much heavy power around, getting this part stable is not exactly trivial. I successfully run a 16-chip chain at lower clocks (somewhere around 250MHz), which proves that the chaining mechanism works in general, so all work left is to tweak the layout and get it operational at full speed.


Not sure how far your design is and whether you started testing, but I guess everyone else following this thread is eager to hear about results from independent parties.


No further news about delivery dates of chips in volumes - still expecting them this month.


Cheers,
zefir
sr. member
Activity: 427
Merit: 251
- electronics design|embedded software|verilog -
There are two version of the documenatation:
one with 0.4 mm pitch and with 0.5 mm pitch.
I was confused also, so I waited for the samples
to arrive before sending the boards out. And I
was wrong, had to redo the A1 footprint.

Can you provide the link to the updated pdf, and are there any other changes?

No idea how to upload a PDF. Hope this helps:



legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
There are two version of the documenatation:
one with 0.4 mm pitch and with 0.5 mm pitch.
I was confused also, so I waited for the samples
to arrive before sending the boards out. And I
was wrong, had to redo the A1 footprint.

Can you provide the link to the updated pdf, and are there any other changes?
legendary
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
I wanted to send my test PCB today, good that I had a little delay Wink Back to drawing board again....
sr. member
Activity: 427
Merit: 251
- electronics design|embedded software|verilog -
Well, this is more than a little disappointing. The datasheet is incorrect; the pad spacing is not 0.4mm it is 0.5mm.
Any chance we can get an updated and correct datasheet uploaded onto the Bitmine website?

Oh! my god....

I looked at my sample chips to measure. You are right.

The gap is 3.0mm (6 * 0.5) between the seven pins.

I'll have to stop making PCB. Modifications are needed....

Thank you for your information.



Will the next batch be correct?
Or are the documents wrong?

There are two version of the documenatation:
one with 0.4 mm pitch and with 0.5 mm pitch.
I was confused also, so I waited for the samples
to arrive before sending the boards out. And I
was wrong, had to redo the A1 footprint.







hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Will the next batch be correct?
Or are the documents wrong?
I just finished reading through both threads, and it seems they did change the package in response to your request to use the more standard 0.5mm spacing.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3777863
They just never updated the datasheets or posted a final specification.

Ouch! Didn't realize that, I had thought they had done that already in terms of revision of the PDF.

Yup, there were going to be some serious issues given the narrower pads detail and even now they still might have issues. There is a lot of heat getting generated.

Quote
Our EE's advice: The 2 - A1 samples got delivered today. Our feeling is that a Metal-core PCB for the A1s and their buck controllers is necessary, and then cutting slots in the FR4 Wasp will allow us to attach copper heatsinks to the metalcore, and Bergquist pads to the tops of the chips and the passives, filling the gap for an aluminum sink for the top. Hoping this initial prototype design keep the temps down in the 40s, with air. All this is necessary so as to increase the potential lifetime of these A1 first run prototype chips...


RF/MW and High Performance PCBs...an uncertain future

Quote
Darren Smith
Sr. Design Engineer at AllWin Group

I think the future of FR-4 as a industry-dominating solution is what is on shaky ground. The size of the weave (or grain) of the FR-4 material itself is too large to support an order of magnitude shift in size & precision of fine pitch geometries.

Much smaller than 3mil trace & space with 2mil vias & FR-4 is typically no longer appropriate.

Over 150 deg C, wire bonding for example, and traditional FR-4 is no longer viable...Yes I know about FR-4-06. But I am talking about its less expensive, now ubiquitous brother: Regular old FR-4.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Will the next batch be correct?
Or are the documents wrong?
I just finished reading through both threads, and it seems they did change the package in response to your request to use the more standard 0.5mm spacing.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3777863
They just never updated the datasheets or posted a final specification.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Well, this is more than a little disappointing. The datasheet is incorrect; the pad spacing is not 0.4mm it is 0.5mm.
Any chance we can get an updated and correct datasheet uploaded onto the Bitmine website?

Oh! my god....

I looked at my sample chips to measure. You are right.

The gap is 3.0mm (6 * 0.5) between the seven pins.

I'll have to stop making PCB. Modifications are needed....

Thank you for your information.



Will the next batch be correct?
Or are the documents wrong?
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
BitFury and A1's in hand.



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