We may disagree about it, but my personal opinion as Avalon offered refund is that Yifu is off the hook.
This thread was created for a reason to show how orders are being late and to measure it, and now when refund is offered it means Avalon contacted us in try to undo their wrongs and we had choice to make. It doesn't mean all disputes are solved, all refunds are received, it means they are listening and reacting. I am sure at the end all refunds will be received, and still it will left bitter taste in our mouth knowing it could be allot better with little more effort.
Those who don't want to be dealing with Avalon, are free to make such a choice, but I see Avalon will fix many of their mistakes in next generation chips.
Did they made all mistakes intentionally or not, we can speculate. Should they compensate at least to people who suffered losses because of their broken promises? If I would have funds I would compensate or donate to those customers of Avalon rig batch #3 and to those who put so much effort to design and produce working boards based on Avalon chips like burnin and bkkcoins. On other hand Avalon isn't obligated to do so, as they never promised you will be making money.
I am closing this thread now when refunds are granted, this thread have no meaning anymore.
Thanks to all that helped getting wider picture of colossal fail and cluster*ck these Avalon chips deliveries have been.
Topic: [CLOSED-refunds process]Avalon - Chips group buy order time frame and deliveries (Read 10997 times)
September 04, 2013, 09:57:45 AM
September 03, 2013, 01:14:06 AM
September 02, 2013, 11:45:28 PM
"Off" the hook?
Not until everyone of his customers is properly refunded or compensated.
I would suggest the community to refrain from doing any further business with him and his company until there is clear evidence that he he has addressed the woefully inadequate communication / customer service. He will certainly be on the hook for some time to come given there a still hundreds of thousands of dollars or product to be delivered or refunded.
Some people have been compensated but let us not give praise just yet if at all.
Not until everyone of his customers is properly refunded or compensated.
I would suggest the community to refrain from doing any further business with him and his company until there is clear evidence that he he has addressed the woefully inadequate communication / customer service. He will certainly be on the hook for some time to come given there a still hundreds of thousands of dollars or product to be delivered or refunded.
Some people have been compensated but let us not give praise just yet if at all.
September 02, 2013, 03:44:09 PM
When refund is offered for chips shipments that were delayed, once we accept refund or carry on with waiting for delivery, Avalon and Yifu did their parts to undo (at least partly) wrongs they did.
I agree on the partly, but not that they've done their part.
I've explained how losing your place in queue is adding one wrong to another, and that by refunding the first batches before the later ones (or if you display it as such), you're letting Avalon off easy, and allowing this mess to be partly swept under the rug. You appear to be disagreeing with me, but offering no real argument to support your point.
Quote from: tiros
Anyway since chips from various buyers and batches are mixed now, batch number have no meaning anymore.
Mixed how?
Quote from: tiros
Yifu is of the hook now, as he did right thing.
I most certainly disagree about the "off the hook" part. He's taken one step in the right direction.
Anyway, if you still disagree with me, perhaps the most neutral way to display things will be to show the refunds separately, and not assign them to individual orders in your OP? Then readers can draw their own conclusions.
Quote from: tiros
Could it been better? It probably could, but we don't have all the info and know stuff that were happening behind closed doors so all we can do is to guess.
Now one thing remains and that is for Yifu to process refund request and give BTC back. He did so for few batches, but zefir didn't got his and right now he is refunding his customers out of his own pocket.
Now one thing remains and that is for Yifu to process refund request and give BTC back. He did so for few batches, but zefir didn't got his and right now he is refunding his customers out of his own pocket.
September 02, 2013, 03:22:56 PM
It would be nice if this list could track refund status.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
I will be adding refunds in OP.
Refunds will be noted in a way - first in, first out - so shipping delay can be calculated fairly.
tiros, thanks for putting this together. I do agree that refund requests and completion should be tracked in the OP.
However, I don't think that FIFO is the fair way to do it. Seems like it's letting Yifu off easy--which appears to be what's he's trying to make happen.
Suppose you had two spots in Avalon's queue (among many other buyers), and Yifu says, "sorry we're delayed, you'll have to give up your first spot (refund), but keep your second," (EDIT: which is behind many other buyers) would you really think that was fair? The buying should remain FIFO (first-come, first served); thus the refunds should be LIFO. This also shows the full extent of the delay, which I think is appropriate.
When refund is offered for chips shipments that were delayed, once we accept refund or carry on with waiting for delivery, Avalon and Yifu did their parts to undo (at least partly) wrongs they did.
Anyway since chips from various buyers and batches are mixed now, batch number have no meaning anymore.
Yifu is of the hook now, as he did right thing.
Could it been better? It probably could, but we don't have all the info and know stuff that were happening behind closed doors so all we can do is to guess.
Now one thing remains and that is for Yifu to process refund request and give BTC back. He did so for few batches, but zefir didn't got his and right now he is refunding his customers out of his own pocket.
September 02, 2013, 03:10:28 PM
It would be nice if this list could track refund status.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
I will be adding refunds in OP.
Refunds will be noted in a way - first in, first out - so shipping delay can be calculated fairly.
tiros, thanks for putting this together. I do agree that refund requests and completion should be tracked in the OP.
However, I don't think that FIFO is the fair way to do it. Seems like it's letting Yifu off easy--which appears to be what's he's trying to make happen.
Suppose you had two spots in Avalon's queue (among many other buyers), and Yifu says, "sorry we're delayed, you'll have to give up your first spot (refund), but keep your second," (EDIT: which is behind many other buyers) would you really think that was fair? The buying should remain FIFO (first-come, first served); thus the refunds should be LIFO. This also shows the full extent of the delay, which I think is appropriate.
September 01, 2013, 05:55:02 AM
*** FYI ***
Quote
Avalon ASIC
Chips Delivery Update, September Edition
Due to events outside of our control, the delivery of chips have been delayed so far. While the situation are improving and chips are shipping, we have ultimately decided to revert our policy on no refunds and offer the option for customers to request a full refund(in bitcoin) if so desired.
The link to the request form is below, please note this only applies to orders made earlier than June 1st.
In other news, for those who decided to wait or wish to know more about delivery schedule will be glad to note we are receiving a batch of 400,000+ chips on Wednesday, with that we expect to be in good shape for meeting the upcoming deadlines of chip deliveries for orders made in June and later.
In addition, we hope to wrap up generation one, finish shipping the chips, construct the modules and build the 2 module Avalon mini, put this pre-order mess behind us in general and switch gear into 55nm production, tape out generation 3, and start work on improving chip design for generation 4. Only sell what we can produce in a day on the assembly line, and only what's in stock.
Chips Delivery Update, September Edition
Due to events outside of our control, the delivery of chips have been delayed so far. While the situation are improving and chips are shipping, we have ultimately decided to revert our policy on no refunds and offer the option for customers to request a full refund(in bitcoin) if so desired.
The link to the request form is below, please note this only applies to orders made earlier than June 1st.
In other news, for those who decided to wait or wish to know more about delivery schedule will be glad to note we are receiving a batch of 400,000+ chips on Wednesday, with that we expect to be in good shape for meeting the upcoming deadlines of chip deliveries for orders made in June and later.
In addition, we hope to wrap up generation one, finish shipping the chips, construct the modules and build the 2 module Avalon mini, put this pre-order mess behind us in general and switch gear into 55nm production, tape out generation 3, and start work on improving chip design for generation 4. Only sell what we can produce in a day on the assembly line, and only what's in stock.
Best Regards!!!
-anykeywhy-
Thanks, I got it also.
It would be nice if this list could track refund status.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
I will be adding refunds in OP.
Refunds will be noted in a way - first in, first out - so shipping delay can be calculated fairly.
September 01, 2013, 02:39:22 AM
It would be nice if this list could track refund status.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
I think 3 of SebastianJu group buys have been refunded.
August 31, 2013, 04:57:31 PM
*** FYI ***
Quote
Avalon ASIC
Chips Delivery Update, September Edition
Due to events outside of our control, the delivery of chips have been delayed so far. While the situation are improving and chips are shipping, we have ultimately decided to revert our policy on no refunds and offer the option for customers to request a full refund(in bitcoin) if so desired.
The link to the request form is below, please note this only applies to orders made earlier than June 1st.
In other news, for those who decided to wait or wish to know more about delivery schedule will be glad to note we are receiving a batch of 400,000+ chips on Wednesday, with that we expect to be in good shape for meeting the upcoming deadlines of chip deliveries for orders made in June and later.
In addition, we hope to wrap up generation one, finish shipping the chips, construct the modules and build the 2 module Avalon mini, put this pre-order mess behind us in general and switch gear into 55nm production, tape out generation 3, and start work on improving chip design for generation 4. Only sell what we can produce in a day on the assembly line, and only what's in stock.
[/quote]Chips Delivery Update, September Edition
Due to events outside of our control, the delivery of chips have been delayed so far. While the situation are improving and chips are shipping, we have ultimately decided to revert our policy on no refunds and offer the option for customers to request a full refund(in bitcoin) if so desired.
The link to the request form is below, please note this only applies to orders made earlier than June 1st.
In other news, for those who decided to wait or wish to know more about delivery schedule will be glad to note we are receiving a batch of 400,000+ chips on Wednesday, with that we expect to be in good shape for meeting the upcoming deadlines of chip deliveries for orders made in June and later.
In addition, we hope to wrap up generation one, finish shipping the chips, construct the modules and build the 2 module Avalon mini, put this pre-order mess behind us in general and switch gear into 55nm production, tape out generation 3, and start work on improving chip design for generation 4. Only sell what we can produce in a day on the assembly line, and only what's in stock.
Best Regards!!!
-anykeywhy-
August 31, 2013, 01:30:59 PM
This:
and this:
REFUNDS for CHIPS... when?
and this:
If these were really shipping at 40-50k daily more group buys would have received shipping notification by this point... (Zefir batch 3 and batch 4).
August 30, 2013, 03:06:07 PM
I am afraid you might be right.
Maybe it did not make sense to manufacture the 110 nm chips since the 55 nm chips are so close to delivery.
Maybe it did not make sense to manufacture the 110 nm chips since the 55 nm chips are so close to delivery.
August 30, 2013, 02:46:49 PM
As group-buy organizer and large-scale buyer I would like to suggest you several options to compensate chip-buyers for the late delivery:
a) refund: no chips, full refund
b) compensation in BTC: deliver chips, compensate XX% of the initial price
c) compensation in chips: deliver chips, add YY% more chips as compensation
d) compensation by upgrades: no chips, convert orders to next-gen chip orders
a) refund: no chips, full refund
b) compensation in BTC: deliver chips, compensate XX% of the initial price
c) compensation in chips: deliver chips, add YY% more chips as compensation
d) compensation by upgrades: no chips, convert orders to next-gen chip orders
I'm glad the group buyer leaders are more understanding.
a) I am very open to this, this is what I suggest.
b) I am not a fan of this, on a principle level I rather do a full refund. plus, I rather sell the chips once we have them in hand at a discount, instead of letting people wait.( which is about the same as doing a partial refund in my opinion.)
c) this will not be good, as you know the chips isn't going to get here any faster, and ordering more would run into more delays ( this is the worst option, do not offer.)
d) while in theory this option sounds the best for us right? we keep the money, tout our gen2/3/4 chips and etc etc, but reality is we want to stay away from all pre-orders in the future. as you can imagine, all the problems, rumors and just about everything is caused by the fact we took pre-orders, and we will no longer be doing this.
you are welcome to post this in your thread.
August 30, 2013, 02:11:11 PM
If these were really shipping at 40-50k daily more group buys would have received shipping notification by this point... (Zefir batch 3 and batch 4).
I am thinking the same thing.It would be nice to get a realistic update on when to expect batch arrivals.
August 30, 2013, 11:59:32 AM
If these were really shipping at 40-50k daily more group buys would have received shipping notification by this point... (Zefir batch 3 and batch 4).
August 30, 2013, 09:50:10 AM
an idea for the spreadsheet:
Maybe also add a colum 'Asked for refund' and 'Refund received' ?
So we can track the orders that need delivery
Maybe also add a colum 'Asked for refund' and 'Refund received' ?
So we can track the orders that need delivery
August 29, 2013, 12:42:18 PM
Looks like group buy organizers will get their chance to get refund on delayed deliveries as per Yifu's say or chance to choose what to do.
How fast those refund will be processed is another question having in mind that not many (I know for only one) refund for Avalon batch #3 miner was processed. Today also it came to Yifu's knowledge (as he says) that those Avalon batch #3 miners refunds has not been processed and he will be working hard to accelerate that process.
Not sure but if refunds get stuck in customsTM it's going to be a problem.
To be honest I was surprised to see people logging in and saying they got their refund. Well, I didn't doubt that refund would be processed but also didn't expect such a speed. Looks at Yifu being so responsive is so nice to see.
Ok, now its time to decide what to do!
I would take the chips if exact shipping date (1-3 days precise) is near or few days from now, otherwise refund. You can all imagine that Yifu could answer that question if he wold take a look at his orders backlog but I don't think he will because of the noise.
completely my fault there. I would visit forum more to see problems, but the noise...
Ok guys you know it now! All of us should blame the noise and keep quiet. Yifu's prerequisite for conducting healthy business is that you can't complain and make noise.
One would say he could ignore nasty comments that were out of line and answer to customers that placed few orders of Avalon chips, but noise was preventing him for doing so.
One who don't want to do something will find thousand of excuses not to do it, and one who want to do something will find thousand of ways to do it.
I look at such an issue as a matter of your own will to make an effort, and once if all resorts fail you, you can always reply on email or bloody support ticket.
Right now I guess we should all be thankful Yifu decided to reply to zefir and give us chance to decide are we going to wait for chips or grab our BTC back.
So to conclude this, thank you Yifu for finally doing the right thing and ask as for our opinion.
He isn't on the list for a reason I don't know when he ordered chips. If you know just link to such post I will be happy to add it to OP.
I believe his order could be found in google spreed-sheet posted by paul3, but I have no way to identify it.
Thank you for your effort and time to post this info.
Regards,
tiros
FYI
I'm glad the group buyer leaders are more understanding.
a) I am very open to this, this is what I suggest.
b) I am not a fan of this, on a principle level I rather do a full refund. plus, I rather sell the chips once we have them in hand at a discount, instead of letting people wait.( which is about the same as doing a partial refund in my opinion.)
c) this will not be good, as you know the chips isn't going to get here any faster, and ordering more would run into more delays ( this is the worst option, do not offer.)
d) while in theory this option sounds the best for us right? we keep the money, tout our gen2/3/4 chips and etc etc, but reality is we want to stay away from all pre-orders in the future. as you can imagine, all the problems, rumors and just about everything is caused by the fact we took pre-orders, and we will no longer be doing this.
you are welcome to post this in your thread.
Dear BitSyncom,
I organized one of the first group-buys for Avalon ASICs with a total of 80k chips during the second half of April. I already received the first two orders, and while they arrived later than agreed, I understand the difficulties you faced with delivery and am happy to have enabled some DIY projects to produce boards with an expected break-even potential.
With the further delays and the recent development in the mining market, we already passed the point where your chips will ever see a ROI. While the accelerated development of next-gen ASICs and the resulting increase in difficulty is every miners' risk issue, the delay is not. Decision to order the chips was based on your ToS giving a 9-10 weeks delivery time, and with the remaining orders being late for at least 8 weeks you for sure are aware that the chips lost their chance to make back their investment.
As you can imagine, all users desperately waiting for their chips are becoming more and more impatient. I personally have ~200 very sad and upset people in my group-buy and I feel very desperate and helpless not being able to do anything about it.
Yifu, it is only some months ago where you have been one of the most respected and honored person in Bitcoinland. I strongly believe that all this mess is a result of issues out of your control. Nevertheless with power comes responsibility, and now it is on you to take responsibility for the masses of folks out there who put serious amount of coins into your chips. If you really care about Bitcoin and its community, you can't just stand there and watch how disappointed users leave the scene.
As group-buy organizer and large-scale buyer I would like to suggest you several options to compensate chip-buyers for the late delivery:
a) refund: no chips, full refund
b) compensation in BTC: deliver chips, compensate XX% of the initial price
c) compensation in chips: deliver chips, add YY% more chips as compensation
d) compensation by upgrades: no chips, convert orders to next-gen chip orders
Would you be willing and capable to consider those suggestions? If so, I'd be glad to negotiate between my group-buyers and you to reach some agreement acceptable for both sides. Also, I would include other group-buy organizers to come to a generic agreement. For the sake of Bitcoin, please come back to me and let's bring this, that poisoned the community already enough, to an end.
Best Regards
zefir
I organized one of the first group-buys for Avalon ASICs with a total of 80k chips during the second half of April. I already received the first two orders, and while they arrived later than agreed, I understand the difficulties you faced with delivery and am happy to have enabled some DIY projects to produce boards with an expected break-even potential.
With the further delays and the recent development in the mining market, we already passed the point where your chips will ever see a ROI. While the accelerated development of next-gen ASICs and the resulting increase in difficulty is every miners' risk issue, the delay is not. Decision to order the chips was based on your ToS giving a 9-10 weeks delivery time, and with the remaining orders being late for at least 8 weeks you for sure are aware that the chips lost their chance to make back their investment.
As you can imagine, all users desperately waiting for their chips are becoming more and more impatient. I personally have ~200 very sad and upset people in my group-buy and I feel very desperate and helpless not being able to do anything about it.
Yifu, it is only some months ago where you have been one of the most respected and honored person in Bitcoinland. I strongly believe that all this mess is a result of issues out of your control. Nevertheless with power comes responsibility, and now it is on you to take responsibility for the masses of folks out there who put serious amount of coins into your chips. If you really care about Bitcoin and its community, you can't just stand there and watch how disappointed users leave the scene.
As group-buy organizer and large-scale buyer I would like to suggest you several options to compensate chip-buyers for the late delivery:
a) refund: no chips, full refund
b) compensation in BTC: deliver chips, compensate XX% of the initial price
c) compensation in chips: deliver chips, add YY% more chips as compensation
d) compensation by upgrades: no chips, convert orders to next-gen chip orders
Would you be willing and capable to consider those suggestions? If so, I'd be glad to negotiate between my group-buyers and you to reach some agreement acceptable for both sides. Also, I would include other group-buy organizers to come to a generic agreement. For the sake of Bitcoin, please come back to me and let's bring this, that poisoned the community already enough, to an end.
Best Regards
zefir
I'm glad the group buyer leaders are more understanding.
a) I am very open to this, this is what I suggest.
b) I am not a fan of this, on a principle level I rather do a full refund. plus, I rather sell the chips once we have them in hand at a discount, instead of letting people wait.( which is about the same as doing a partial refund in my opinion.)
c) this will not be good, as you know the chips isn't going to get here any faster, and ordering more would run into more delays ( this is the worst option, do not offer.)
d) while in theory this option sounds the best for us right? we keep the money, tout our gen2/3/4 chips and etc etc, but reality is we want to stay away from all pre-orders in the future. as you can imagine, all the problems, rumors and just about everything is caused by the fact we took pre-orders, and we will no longer be doing this.
you are welcome to post this in your thread.
How fast those refund will be processed is another question having in mind that not many (I know for only one) refund for Avalon batch #3 miner was processed. Today also it came to Yifu's knowledge (as he says) that those Avalon batch #3 miners refunds has not been processed and he will be working hard to accelerate that process.
ok. this is pretty stupid of me, and completely my fault.
the system is designed to move cold storage to hot wallet -> then send out refunds.
but apparently the move failed and the script tried to send a bunch of refunds while the input contained no coins...
1000 coins have been moved and script resumed, I'm sure people should see refunds instantly and can vouch. and once I get back on location I can enable more coins to be moved and thus refund resumed.
again, I apologize for the long delay.
the system is designed to move cold storage to hot wallet -> then send out refunds.
but apparently the move failed and the script tried to send a bunch of refunds while the input contained no coins...
1000 coins have been moved and script resumed, I'm sure people should see refunds instantly and can vouch. and once I get back on location I can enable more coins to be moved and thus refund resumed.
again, I apologize for the long delay.
Not sure but if refunds get stuck in customsTM it's going to be a problem.
so all the refunds went out, aside from 2 orders which bugged out for whatever reason, and is looking into it now, those are 6997 and 6817.
To be honest I was surprised to see people logging in and saying they got their refund. Well, I didn't doubt that refund would be processed but also didn't expect such a speed. Looks at Yifu being so responsive is so nice to see.
Ok, now its time to decide what to do!
I would take the chips if exact shipping date (1-3 days precise) is near or few days from now, otherwise refund. You can all imagine that Yifu could answer that question if he wold take a look at his orders backlog but I don't think he will because of the noise.
Confirmed by block chain. Refund already has one confirmation. Phew... That is a relief..
completely my fault there. I would visit forum more to see problems, but the noise...
Ok guys you know it now! All of us should blame the noise and keep quiet. Yifu's prerequisite for conducting healthy business is that you can't complain and make noise.
One would say he could ignore nasty comments that were out of line and answer to customers that placed few orders of Avalon chips, but noise was preventing him for doing so.
One who don't want to do something will find thousand of excuses not to do it, and one who want to do something will find thousand of ways to do it.
I look at such an issue as a matter of your own will to make an effort, and once if all resorts fail you, you can always reply on email or bloody support ticket.
Right now I guess we should all be thankful Yifu decided to reply to zefir and give us chance to decide are we going to wait for chips or grab our BTC back.
So to conclude this, thank you Yifu for finally doing the right thing and ask as for our opinion.
just wandering how come terrahash is not on this list
see here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198489.3720
regards
see here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198489.3720
regards
He isn't on the list for a reason I don't know when he ordered chips. If you know just link to such post I will be happy to add it to OP.
I believe his order could be found in google spreed-sheet posted by paul3, but I have no way to identify it.
Thank you for your effort and time to post this info.
Regards,
tiros
August 29, 2013, 10:17:25 AM
Is this just for group buys?
with all due resect buddy, the title suggests just that...
Thanks, and I sincerely deserved that. Was just wondering if there was anyway to make the list incorporate the other 75 percent of the total order list. Without hijacking this thread of course. At this point in time the onus is no longer on group buy folks anymore is it?
August 29, 2013, 07:47:45 AM
Is this just for group buys?
with all due resect buddy, the title suggests just that...
August 29, 2013, 03:39:35 AM
Is this just for group buys?
August 28, 2013, 09:57:45 AM
just wandering how come terrahash is not on this list
see here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198489.3720
regards
see here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198489.3720
regards
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