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Topic: CoinGator - page 3. (Read 20318 times)

Matthew N. Wright
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Re: CoinGator
June 12, 2013, 03:03:27 AM
#87
Quote from: ranlo on June 11, 2013, 08:25:12 PM
Quote from: ruggedman_dan on June 11, 2013, 08:23:33 PM
crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.



I wasn't aware of this. It would help explain why they screw over so many people though.

With bounds of class action lawsuits against them, all settled out of court to avoid being shut down. (pro-tip: Don't settle or be a part of a class action suit because it skirts judgements and keeps you from suing them again when they do the same thing in the future)
MicroGuy
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Re: CoinGator
June 08, 2013, 11:59:04 AM
#86
It has been decided that the CoinGator project will be discontinued until further notice.
ranlo
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Activity: 1974
Merit: 1007
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 08:25:12 PM
#86
Quote from: ruggedman_dan on June 11, 2013, 08:23:33 PM
crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.



I wasn't aware of this. It would help explain why they screw over so many people though.
ruggedman_dan
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Activity: 1012
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We on P. Sherman 42 Wallaby Way, Sydney
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 08:23:33 PM
#85
crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.

MicroGuy
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Merit: 1030
Twitter @realmicroguy
Re: CoinGator
June 06, 2013, 07:03:15 PM
#84
Quote from: gektek on June 06, 2013, 05:14:25 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 06, 2013, 04:05:12 PM
The current plan is to reopen next week to a few US states where we can operate legally. Then we will expand the service as we add additional states. We will not be available to customers in states where we are unlicensed as money transmitters due to various legal ambiguities. After we receive additional clarification we will look again into servicing those states.

hmm...alrighty well...how about the state of Washington? Yay or Nay?

The greatest likelyhood is that that state will not be included.
Cyberdyne
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Activity: 630
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Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 06:26:01 AM
#84
Thanks for your efforts Matthew. I'm sure there are many newbies that have taken your words of warning seriously, despite not being able to post in this thread.
Matthew N. Wright
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Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 04:26:28 AM
#83
Quote from: crazylikeafox on June 11, 2013, 04:20:06 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:40:26 AM

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

BitInstant is registered as a money services business. https://mega.co.nz/#!E99RzY6B!Mol5t0UtPPLb9epFgbgxrhojhfcrk41W51Bybp0YsXs

Do they hold individual state licenses as well?  If they did, why would they publish such statements about "acting as agents" of other state licensees?

That is something you'd need to ask BitInstant. I am not affiliated with them.
crazylikeafox
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Activity: 798
Merit: 251
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 04:20:06 AM
#82
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:40:26 AM

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

BitInstant is registered as a money services business. https://mega.co.nz/#!E99RzY6B!Mol5t0UtPPLb9epFgbgxrhojhfcrk41W51Bybp0YsXs

Do they hold individual state licenses as well?  If they did, why would they publish such statements about "acting as agents" of other state licensees?
MicroGuy
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Re: CoinGator
June 06, 2013, 04:05:12 PM
#82
Quote from: gektek on June 06, 2013, 03:58:36 PM
*Knock Knock Knock*

CoinGater

*Knock Knock Knock*

CoinGater

*Knock Knock Knock*

CoinGater

...any chances of opening back up before the weekend? ty ty! Cheesy

The current plan is to reopen next week to a few US states where we can operate legally. Then we will expand the service as we add additional states. We will not be available to customers in states where we are unlicensed as money transmitters due to various legal ambiguities. After we receive additional clarification we will look again into servicing those states.
ranlo
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Merit: 1007
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 04:00:51 AM
#81
Thanks Matthew! That's pretty crazy. If you're going to crowd-fund you pretty much have to get an accountant/lawyer involved, o.o. This means you lose a (possibly large) portion of the funds that are raised!

BTW, for anyone else who wants a tl;dr, check out this image below. The second column is the one that matters (and first so you know what it's referring to):

Matthew N. Wright
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Activity: 588
Merit: 500
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Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:55:16 AM
#80
Quote from: ranlo on June 11, 2013, 03:54:28 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: ranlo on June 11, 2013, 03:46:40 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:40:26 AM
You can register state-wide, but then you need to get proof from each customer that they don't live outside that state, and risk losing your license, fines and imprisonment if you're caught doing business with any customers outside the states you're licensed in.

That's crazy. They aren't even that strict against casinos. Ex. it's illegal to gamble but you can go to another state to do it, and they even take down all your information and there's nothing done to stop it.

It is crazy, it is a scam, it's designed to keep small businesses (who are not so easily influenced by politicians) out of the mix. It's kind of like what is happening in Bitcoin with all these big shouldered businesses, "foundations", and boys clubs. The US government only cares about you if you can make them a profit, and even then only if you're a pushover to their policies. Just look at recently passed crowd funding legislation if you're in the mood to vomit.

Happen to have a link to a good article/overview of the crowd-funding legislation? The last thing I heard/read was a few weeks ago and it just dealt with making it illegal to do crowd-funding for equity.

Here's a pretty good, up-to-date writeup that explains the gist of it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2013/04/17/the-trouble-with-crowdfunding/
ranlo
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Activity: 1974
Merit: 1007
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:54:28 AM
#79
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: ranlo on June 11, 2013, 03:46:40 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:40:26 AM
You can register state-wide, but then you need to get proof from each customer that they don't live outside that state, and risk losing your license, fines and imprisonment if you're caught doing business with any customers outside the states you're licensed in.

That's crazy. They aren't even that strict against casinos. Ex. it's illegal to gamble but you can go to another state to do it, and they even take down all your information and there's nothing done to stop it.

It is crazy, it is a scam, it's designed to keep small businesses (who are not so easily influenced by politicians) out of the mix. It's kind of like what is happening in Bitcoin with all these big shouldered businesses, "foundations", and boys clubs. The US government only cares about you if you can make them a profit, and even then only if you're a pushover to their policies. Just look at recently passed crowd funding legislation if you're in the mood to vomit.

Happen to have a link to a good article/overview of the crowd-funding legislation? The last thing I heard/read was a few weeks ago and it just dealt with making it illegal to do crowd-funding for equity.
Matthew N. Wright
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:49:40 AM
#78
Quote from: ranlo on June 11, 2013, 03:46:40 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:40:26 AM
You can register state-wide, but then you need to get proof from each customer that they don't live outside that state, and risk losing your license, fines and imprisonment if you're caught doing business with any customers outside the states you're licensed in.

That's crazy. They aren't even that strict against casinos. Ex. it's illegal to gamble but you can go to another state to do it, and they even take down all your information and there's nothing done to stop it.

It is crazy, it is a scam, it's designed to keep small businesses (who are not so easily influenced by politicians) out of the mix. It's kind of like what is happening in Bitcoin with all these big shouldered businesses, "foundations", and boys clubs. The US government only cares about you if you can make them a profit, and even then only if you're a pushover to their policies. Just look at recently passed crowd funding legislation if you're in the mood to vomit.
MicroGuy
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Merit: 1030
Twitter @realmicroguy
Re: CoinGator
June 03, 2013, 10:13:32 PM
#77
In the next few days, we will adding a user registration requirement and prohibiting transactions from states where we don't hold money transmitters licenses. And users will be required to verify their place of residence before being permitted to conduct a transaction.

International sales will no longer be supported.
ranlo
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 1007
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:46:40 AM
#77
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:40:26 AM
You can register state-wide, but then you need to get proof from each customer that they don't live outside that state, and risk losing your license, fines and imprisonment if you're caught doing business with any customers outside the states you're licensed in.

That's crazy. They aren't even that strict against casinos. Ex. it's illegal to gamble but you can go to another state to do it, and they even take down all your information and there's nothing done to stop it.
Matthew N. Wright
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:40:26 AM
#76
Quote from: ranlo on June 11, 2013, 03:38:22 AM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:27:11 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 11:59:04 AM
It has been decided that the CoinGator project will be discontinued until further notice.
Did Paypal close your account already? Jesus christ that was fast.

No. This is unrelated to PayPal. It was determined that the cost of regulatory compliance would be cost prohibitive.

Oh well if that's all you're worried about, use a different country's paypal. That's not the least of the problems though.

This decision was based on costs exceeding $250,000 USD to operate legally in the United States.

Is there a way to get registered in just one or two states, or is it all or nothing?

You can register state-wide, but then you need to get proof from each customer that they don't live outside that state, and risk losing your license, fines and imprisonment if you're caught doing business with any customers outside the states you're licensed in.

Quote from: crazylikeafox on June 11, 2013, 03:33:53 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:28:50 AM
Quote from: crazylikeafox on June 11, 2013, 03:27:19 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:27:11 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 11:59:04 AM
It has been decided that the CoinGator project will be discontinued until further notice.
Did Paypal close your account already? Jesus christ that was fast.

No. This is unrelated to PayPal. It was determined that the cost of regulatory compliance would be cost prohibitive.

Oh well if that's all you're worried about, use a different country's paypal. That's not the least of the problems though.

This decision was based on costs exceeding $250,000 USD to operate legally in the United States.


Yea, the US has built up a pretty nice scam for themselves. They get to keep mom'n'pop shops down, and only allow the people with the most to lose to operate (so that they are nice and complacent). Like I said though, Paypal themselves solved that one by incorporating in Singapore and not serving Singaporean citizens. There are always ways around it, but using Paypal as a way to buy bitcoins is the problem, not the MSB licensing imo. At least now I don't need to bump this thread with timers.

Good luck on any other endeavors here in the community, you might be surprised to see even me supporting a few of them if they have sound business models that don't require trust etc.

Here is a little tidbit from https://new.bitinstant.com/whatwedo:

"BitInstant acts as an agent of its partners in all states in which its partners hold a current money transmitter license. In the limited states where BitInstant's partners do not currently have a required money transmitter license, BitInstant will not act as an agent of it's partners and may rely upon other payment methods to legally fulfill Bitcoin purchase orders."

In other words, they aren't MSB's either.  By that logic, since PayPal is licensed, your business should be fine.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/

Well, somehow they are getting away with it and are not licensed. All I'm saying.

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

BitInstant is registered as a money services business. https://mega.co.nz/#!E99RzY6B!Mol5t0UtPPLb9epFgbgxrhojhfcrk41W51Bybp0YsXs
ranlo
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 1007
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:38:22 AM
#75
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:27:11 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 11:59:04 AM
It has been decided that the CoinGator project will be discontinued until further notice.
Did Paypal close your account already? Jesus christ that was fast.

No. This is unrelated to PayPal. It was determined that the cost of regulatory compliance would be cost prohibitive.

Oh well if that's all you're worried about, use a different country's paypal. That's not the least of the problems though.

This decision was based on costs exceeding $250,000 USD to operate legally in the United States.

Is there a way to get registered in just one or two states, or is it all or nothing?
crazylikeafox
sr. member
Activity: 798
Merit: 251
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:33:53 AM
#74
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2013, 03:28:50 AM
Quote from: crazylikeafox on June 11, 2013, 03:27:19 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:27:11 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 11:59:04 AM
It has been decided that the CoinGator project will be discontinued until further notice.
Did Paypal close your account already? Jesus christ that was fast.

No. This is unrelated to PayPal. It was determined that the cost of regulatory compliance would be cost prohibitive.

Oh well if that's all you're worried about, use a different country's paypal. That's not the least of the problems though.

This decision was based on costs exceeding $250,000 USD to operate legally in the United States.


Yea, the US has built up a pretty nice scam for themselves. They get to keep mom'n'pop shops down, and only allow the people with the most to lose to operate (so that they are nice and complacent). Like I said though, Paypal themselves solved that one by incorporating in Singapore and not serving Singaporean citizens. There are always ways around it, but using Paypal as a way to buy bitcoins is the problem, not the MSB licensing imo. At least now I don't need to bump this thread with timers.

Good luck on any other endeavors here in the community, you might be surprised to see even me supporting a few of them if they have sound business models that don't require trust etc.

Here is a little tidbit from https://new.bitinstant.com/whatwedo:

"BitInstant acts as an agent of its partners in all states in which its partners hold a current money transmitter license. In the limited states where BitInstant's partners do not currently have a required money transmitter license, BitInstant will not act as an agent of it's partners and may rely upon other payment methods to legally fulfill Bitcoin purchase orders."

In other words, they aren't MSB's either.  By that logic, since PayPal is licensed, your business should be fine.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/

Well, somehow they are getting away with it and are not licensed. All I'm saying.
Matthew N. Wright
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
Re: CoinGator
June 11, 2013, 03:28:50 AM
#73
Quote from: crazylikeafox on June 11, 2013, 03:27:19 AM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:27:11 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2013, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: MicroGuy on June 08, 2013, 11:59:04 AM
It has been decided that the CoinGator project will be discontinued until further notice.
Did Paypal close your account already? Jesus christ that was fast.

No. This is unrelated to PayPal. It was determined that the cost of regulatory compliance would be cost prohibitive.

Oh well if that's all you're worried about, use a different country's paypal. That's not the least of the problems though.

This decision was based on costs exceeding $250,000 USD to operate legally in the United States.


Yea, the US has built up a pretty nice scam for themselves. They get to keep mom'n'pop shops down, and only allow the people with the most to lose to operate (so that they are nice and complacent). Like I said though, Paypal themselves solved that one by incorporating in Singapore and not serving Singaporean citizens. There are always ways around it, but using Paypal as a way to buy bitcoins is the problem, not the MSB licensing imo. At least now I don't need to bump this thread with timers.

Good luck on any other endeavors here in the community, you might be surprised to see even me supporting a few of them if they have sound business models that don't require trust etc.

Here is a little tidbit from https://new.bitinstant.com/whatwedo:

"BitInstant acts as an agent of its partners in all states in which its partners hold a current money transmitter license. In the limited states where BitInstant's partners do not currently have a required money transmitter license, BitInstant will not act as an agent of it's partners and may rely upon other payment methods to legally fulfill Bitcoin purchase orders."

In other words, they aren't MSB's either.  By that logic, since PayPal is licensed, your business should be fine.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/
MicroGuy
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1030
Twitter @realmicroguy
Re: CoinGator
May 31, 2013, 08:42:13 PM
#72
Thanks for the timers. But they are heavy on effect and light on substance.

Randomly pulling "180 days" out of the PayPal terms of service as it applies to account closures and suggesting that somehow it applies to payment reversals seems to me misguided or maybe even a bit disingenuous.

Currently our greatest challenge is bearing the numerous compliance/regulatory costs recently imposed upon the industry. We have recently hired a legal consulting firm and are working with various licensing agencies to ensure we are in full compliance as our long term goal is to provide a reliable and invaluable service to the bitcoin community.

We appreciate those of you with words of encouragement, and thank you all for your business and support.
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