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Topic: Collapse of crude oil prices - page 5. (Read 1608 times)

legendary
Activity: 2842
Merit: 1130
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
April 21, 2020, 03:03:55 PM
#50
Oil prices may not recover forever as world automobile industry slowly started adopting renewable energy resources wherever possible.

One day or other, crude oil producing countries must need to face the situation like this as all petroleum related resources are limited but unfortunately they might not be expecting this much drastic fall of crude prices due to a pandemic. I guess this covid19 outbreaks shows some trailer of what are things we may go facing in next decade or in 25 years if we keep ignoring destroying nature and not thinking about making use of renewable energy possibilities. Not sure how many governments will learn lessons from this pandemic.
member
Activity: 1204
Merit: 38
April 21, 2020, 02:44:24 PM
#49
Everyone now is asking how to buy some oil barrels lol.
Production >> demand, no place to store it as it is barely full, long term contracts are getting hard to be signed and the producers are paying you to do this. That's a nightmare for them!
lol yeah, I've seen some folks talking about where they can buy stock of oil as if there is a person who sells for free The oil price crash is not what it really looks like, the price did crash because there were no demands so as you guys can see there is a massive price dump from oil industry but it does not mean anything.
The dump created due to oil trade war, if they acted early and reduced the production level then they are not in such situation as now.Anyway the country USA is going to get affected due to the crude oil price collapse but in reality no people in this world will get the benefit for the price decrease because they were forced to buy for higher prices even when the barrel price is in negative value.
sr. member
Activity: 1876
Merit: 370
April 21, 2020, 01:32:02 PM
#48
Everyone now is asking how to buy some oil barrels lol.
Production >> demand, no place to store it as it is barely full, long term contracts are getting hard to be signed and the producers are paying you to do this. That's a nightmare for them!
lol yeah, I've seen some folks talking about where they can buy stock of oil as if there is a person who sells for free The oil price crash is not what it really looks like, the price did crash because there were no demands so as you guys can see there is a massive price dump from oil industry but it does not mean anything.
member
Activity: 560
Merit: 13
April 21, 2020, 01:19:21 PM
#47
Well, no one expected this as the price drops massively after 20 years if I am not wrong, With the global economy in a complete stand there no demand for any new oil. So undoubtedly the price might drop this also collapse will be unforgettable for everyone, however let's believe things will get sorted out in few days!!!

legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 1124
April 21, 2020, 01:10:36 PM
#46
I really don't know what caused the prices to dump like that and increased but I can only speculate on what could happened in between at the very least. You can have crude oil not only in physical format but also you can get some from the stock market type investment banks as well, not really that common but crude oil is a commodity that you could purchase there, you are not really the owner of physically a barrel for example but you do have digitally purchased one, can't cash it out, can't call it to your house for example, but they just assume there is a barrel out there which is owned by you.

If the prices dropped so low that one liter of WATER is more expensive than a liter of crude oil, that means a lot of people all around the world, a big huge global movement happened that bought oil right away yesterday which caused it to go back up a bit.
sr. member
Activity: 951
Merit: 259
April 21, 2020, 12:57:17 PM
#45
Uhh, what?


source

I woke up this morning, checked Yahoo and it was $10, now it's under $1 a barrel. And it's taking a toll on the stock market.

edit¨* @LoyceV beat me to it...but my pic isn't accurate, it's actually -137% wtf!??

It's insane. They literally have to stop production instantly else their storage would be filled with oil that no one wants to buy at the moment. China could take up all the oil they could get while the prices are low, but even then I think that they would have a limiting capacity for oil storage. Just a month ago, Saudi announced that they will be ramping up their oil production by 3 million barrels/day. That seemed to be not a good idea after all.

LE:
Out of curiosity, I checked and it seems the dam has a storage capacity of around 3500 days of global oil production.  Grin


Ahh, a fiery dam of oil.. What could go wrong if any country decides to try this? Grin

What a week ago OPEC (Oil producing and Exporting countries ) has agreed to cut the production of oil for about 10Million barrels per day in the month of May and June which is around 20% of their production level and literally the demand has seen a sharp fall because of the pandemic situation so things might improve a bit in the May and June but it will take few more months for the demand to return
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
April 21, 2020, 11:41:57 AM
#44
Your argument doesn't actually suggest the oil industry is in any way robust in the face of collapsing oil prices, or that banks would be unaffected. You're just saying, "hey look over there, fraud!"

Hihi, first you would have to realize that I'm not at all arguing at how robust the oil industry or the banking industry is or how invincible and unpenetrable and unfu$#$ it is, they can be hit they can bleed money but not just from this little blow.
I'm just pointing at the overreacting and exaggerations that have made ZH such garbage, and I'm also pointing at some flaws you have in your reasoning. Rather than trying to arrive at a conclusion based on the information, you are trying to pick bits of info so that you arrive at the point you want to!

Take for example your starting point, you've selected a troubled company (which cooked its books with a lot of sauce)  and you're trying to paint this situation all over the industry. At the same time, when I give you a good example, you dismissed it because one company out of 100 is not relevant, this is not analyzing facts, it's picking the facts that back up your analysis.

Are you?
The point of this thread is that banks are heavily exposed to oil companies, who are unprofitable or collapsing due to low oil prices, which poses systemic risk to the banking system.

So it is a risk or a certitude? Because you were pretty certain things will happen! That's why we have this debate after all!

I would change my tune on the oil industry when WTI is trading above $50 a barrel again, because that's the minimum before even the most profitable US producers can get cash flow positive.

You know that's not true and you know that oil is just like bitcoin mining, You're not making money at 6 cents per kWh normally but if enough people drop out of mining you might make profits even at 8. If some of them shut off their production the supply and demand ration will take care of the rest.

I really don't know what's going to happen but it seems silly to assume oil prices are just going to skyrocket in the near future to bail out the oil industry. Most of the commodity markets I watch are standing on the edge of a cliff too. Anything can happen, even a miraculous recovery from here, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand given the market conditions. 2008 is still fresh in my mind.
The sentiment I see when I look around also seems way too optimistic. So many analysts are like, "Crude oil just dumped below $0 for the first time ever? Nothing to see here, move along! Everything goes back to normal next month!" We'll see about that.

Let me tell you something, I've been through a lot of far worse situations in my life, not family or personally related.
I've endured the communist regime, I saw the warsaw and caer pacts crumble, I saw inflation above 1000%, I saw a recovery period and another crash at the end of the '90, I lived through 2008 which was like a breeze compared to the previous ones and every time people were acting like it is the end of the world.

It wasn't! Nor were the hundreds of pandemics not the hundreds of crashes, life will go on, the economy will recover and we will be back consuming and producing and drilling for oil and burning it..... If AOC won't be elected president!
You're underestimating the recovery potential of this flawed (considered by some) economic model.

But as you've said, I'll have to add some tickers and let you know when WTI hits 30$ and 50$!  Grin
And you own me a PM when the entire shale sector is dead for good!

it will cost probably an insane amount to store it anywhere if there is still room for any.
I can see a business model where you fill abandoned oil wells with fresh oil again, and make a profit doing so Smiley

Unfortunately, it won't work for most oil wells at the end of their life circle. Most of the late recovery oil is forced out through different methods from water to thermal heating, so trying to inject oil back it will be more costly from an energy consumption point of view than getting it out in the first place.
The simple solution would be oil pits, dig 5m deep pools over a 1km2 area and be careful not to let gas accumulation happen.
Venezuela actually used open-air oil pits to store a lot of oil when its infrastructure crumbled and they weren't able to move it from the exploration areas. But good luck dealing with the environmentalists.

It is strange. I believe that this is the first time something like this happened. Not two World Wars has crashed the Crude Oil market to negative prices.

There was no "oil price" during the world wars, nor were the same markets as we have now in place.
And if they were, the demand for oil would have pushed the price at insane levels, remember that Nazi Germany was trying to produce synthetic fuel at insane costs just because they didn't have any alternative. And,even by ww2, the Saudis couldn't flood the market with oil  Grin
 
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
April 21, 2020, 11:10:58 AM
#43
is this market manipulation?
OPEC is a cartel, of course they manipulate the market!
full member
Activity: 1568
Merit: 100
COMBONetwork
April 21, 2020, 10:57:17 AM
#42
I really do not know what happened to OIL prices, had experienced a terrible decline throughout history, and a very drastic increase up to 200000% in a day, that's a new record in my opinion, is this market manipulation?
legendary
Activity: 3178
Merit: 1140
#SWGT CERTIK Audited
April 21, 2020, 10:47:19 AM
#41
Everyone now is asking how to buy some oil barrels lol.
Production >> demand, no place to store it as it is barely full, long term contracts are getting hard to be signed and the producers are paying you to do this. That's a nightmare for them!
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
April 21, 2020, 10:09:56 AM
#40
Everything's "fine" now, boys  Grin


We're green!

But more importantly, June's future contracts, even though they took a big hit over the last 36hours or so, are still in somewhat good levels (price):

Anything is better than -$40 I guess. Grin

As far as "good levels" go, US producers need $50+ a barrel to get profitable again. That's 330% away from the current price. Everything in between just represents a sector operating with major losses, on high yield debt.
hero member
Activity: 2086
Merit: 994
Cats on Mars
April 21, 2020, 09:51:24 AM
#39
Everything's "fine" now, boys  Grin


We're green!

But more importantly, June's future contracts, even though they took a big hit over the last 36hours or so, are still in somewhat good levels (price):


Brent Crude oil went down by A LOT as well so it's not like we're out of the danger zone.

Another thought: if the shale oil producers spend around $50 per barrel of oil they produce, and the guy who buys it only wants it if someone gives him $20, can't the oil producer himself "buy" his own oil on the market, and leave it in the ground? He'll earn $20 instead of losing $50!
Or would that be considered some fraud in some way?
Hmm, that sounds like the perfect way to get fined thousands of dollars  Cheesy
I'm pretty sure the specs of oil future contracts have some specific rules about the price and procedures of physical delivery, so it's not like either party can work something outside of what's in the contract, plus everything it's well documented so if something looks odd, well, prepare for the consequences.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
April 21, 2020, 09:18:43 AM
#38
I guess that's one way to describe a $3.34 billion shortfall. Smiley

A Big Four auditor also signed off on their books 6 months ago, which just goes to show how easy it is to hide major frauds even at audited public companies. Crashes and liquidity crises often bring major insolvencies like this to a head. That's what happened here. At $60/barrel they were able to keep the fraud going, but not at these prices.

Yeah, because the barrel was already full, you used the word "fraud" yourself.
So the fund was nothing more than a Ponzi scheme, Ponzi schemes also keep going if people pour money, they won't fail unless one thing happens, let's be real, the main reason was the fraud in the books.
Otherwise, the entire sector would be dead.

Again, you missed the point: the collapse of oil prices can act as a catalyst for shuttering already struggling oil companies. ~100 bankruptcies are expected, along with 30% of junk energy bonds expected to default. https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/business/oil-crash-bankruptcies-whiting/index.html

That's how economic crashes work. Troubled firms can survive during boom years but go bankrupt when the tide goes back out. When they all crash at the same time (like 2008) we have a financial crisis. If there were more firms like Hin Leong engaging in Enron-style fraud, it would only exacerbate the systemic risk already posed by the oil industry.

Your argument doesn't actually suggest the oil industry is in any way robust in the face of collapsing oil prices, or that banks would be unaffected. You're just saying, "hey look over there, fraud!"

And how is that the most important takeaway? Whether there is fraud underlying a bankruptcy doesn't make any difference.
Are you serious? Tongue

Are you?

The point of this thread is that banks are heavily exposed to oil companies, who are unprofitable or collapsing due to low oil prices, which poses systemic risk to the banking system.

The point of this thread is not whether Hin Leong had fraudulent books. That is tertiary to the above question. If anything, the fact that Deloitte signed off on Hin Leong's books raises questions about how prevalent Enron-style fraud is at public companies audited by the Big Four, i.e. virtually the entire US oil industry.

The issue is the systemic risk the oil industry poses to banks.

I went through the articles you've quoted:
Quote
North American oil exploration and production companies have $86 billion in debt that will mature between 2020 and 2024, and pipeline companies have an additional $123 billion in debt coming due over the same period, according to Moody’s.

So, that's 40 billion a year...some from companies that don't have any problems in repaying their debt.
What's 40 billion a year for the entire banking industry? EOS raised 4 billion, EOS!!!!!!!!

+$32 billion in the oil field services sector.

What's $241 billion, in a high leverage and potentially low liquidity environment where bonds are securitized and sold? Not nothing. It's something like 1.13% of the country's 2019 GDP, and much more significant than that in terms of banking liquidity.

Certainly not comparable to $4 billion. EOS? Shaking my head at that comparison.

I'm talking about crude oil because there are banks like Goldman Sachs who have more than 11% of outstanding loans tied to the oil sector. And none of these numbers include unfunded Q4 commitments either. It is too large to wave away if the banks are "too big to fail."

I'm not saying the oil industry is the only sector banks will see defaults in either, the opposite in fact. This is one systemic risk among several to consider. Residential mortgage delinquencies pose another major risk. Then there is commercial real estate. The potential loss rate on consumer loans and credit cards is even worse. It seems worthy of speculation which of these factors, if any, might cause a tipping point for a banking crisis. Considering what happened in 2008, it would be silly to write off this possibility, especially when looking around at what's happening in the world.

Banks are bracing for the impact, because they are smart enough to see the collapse in Q2 will be epic. They've set aside ~$35 billion among themselves to cover anticipated defaults. Will it be enough? We'll see. In times of crisis, the markets always look liquid until all of a sudden they aren't anymore.

I would change my tune on the oil industry when WTI is trading above $50 a barrel again, because that's the minimum before even the most profitable US producers can get cash flow positive. That's a huge impediment to recovery. Surviving for a couple months is one thing, surviving longer term at these prices will prove challenging. Unfortunately there are strong signs of economic deflation now, so a swift V-shaped recovery in prices looks less likely every day.

And again.. you've omitted a paragraph:
Quote
But the entire energy industry is adjusting. Parsley Energy, a leading West Texas oil and gas producer, has devised its 2020 capital budget assuming that oil prices will be in the range of $30 to $35 for the remainder of the year.
Parsley refinanced its debt in February and won’t face a crunch for at least five years.

That's one company, who managed to refinance its debt in February. Literally no bonds are being issued to energy companies anymore. Oil companies can't refinance their debt.

And let me know when WTI is trading in the $30 to $35 range again. It's trading at $15 and touched $11 a few hours ago.

I really don't know what's going to happen but it seems silly to assume oil prices are just going to skyrocket in the near future to bail out the oil industry. Most of the commodity markets I watch are standing on the edge of a cliff too. Anything can happen, even a miraculous recovery from here, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand given the market conditions. 2008 is still fresh in my mind.

The sentiment I see when I look around also seems way too optimistic. So many analysts are like, "Crude oil just dumped below $0 for the first time ever? Nothing to see here, move along! Everything goes back to normal next month!" We'll see about that.
hero member
Activity: 3038
Merit: 647
April 21, 2020, 07:13:38 AM
#37
Now I guess we all know that oil too is pump and dump  Grin. Oil price hit zero while a bitcoin is still trading above $6k so who is the boss ? We will all see what will happen after this pandemic
It's not a pump and dump because it dump for a reason, there's less demand of oil now so it's normal that the price will fall down, but it does not fall to zero, at this time, for countries that are not affected with covid or there is no lock down, they can enjoy the price of the crude oil now, and personally I got my car full tank and bought some reserve in my house as this is the first time I saw the price is this low.
full member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 129
April 21, 2020, 07:01:38 AM
#36
Now I guess we all know that oil too is pump and dump  Grin. Oil price hit zero while a bitcoin is still trading above $6k so who is the boss ? We will all see what will happen after this pandemic
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
April 21, 2020, 05:43:51 AM
#35

Black gold is experiencing its worst days, but this is not strange considering that most of the world is in a quarantine and most of the passenger and freight traffic is suspended.


It is strange. I believe that this is the first time something like this happened. Not two World Wars has crashed the Crude Oil market to negative prices.

Quote

It is a classic example of supply and demand, and what happens when something becomes almost worthless.


It's not just about simple economics. It's the logisitcs. Storage capacity has run out! Oil buyers can't take the oil anymore.
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 269
April 21, 2020, 05:25:01 AM
#34
New update about oil is that it crush below to negative territory the price is $0 per barrel the effects of corona virus really hit the oil industry. This will a trigger a much more major uncertainty and fear towards investors. Though the dow and S&P wasn't affected for now the stock market is safe. Im expecting the Fed to do more extreme actions and mass money printing in coming days of trillions of dollars.

It's quite amusing how most bankers and Institutional investors expected Bitcoin to drop to zero in this financial crisis but look at Oil in had a flash crash and immediately dump to negative value.

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1655
To the Moon
April 21, 2020, 05:06:10 AM
#33
This the right time to buy crude oil.
The price of crude oil is minus, you will get payed by buying crude oil. Cool

You can buy oil now at such a low price, but then you will face the problem of selling it. There are currently no available storage tanks for oil, so if you need to take a tanker, you will have nowhere to unload it. But at the same time, oil producers cannot stop the process of its production.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
April 21, 2020, 04:03:50 AM
#32
This the right time to buy crude oil.
The price of crude oil is minus, you will get payed by buying crude oil. Cool
Then what? Store it in your garage?

Image loading...

Daily oil production is around 100 million barrels. The data in the graph is 2 weeks old by now, and I've seen estimates stating supply is currently close to 30 million barrels per day larger than demand. Even if I reduce the almost 10 million barrels per day OPEC+ production cuts, that leaves around 20 million barrels per day. That's 3.18 hm3 (cubic hectometer).
The volume of the Empire State Building is 37 million cubic feet, or 1.048 hm3.

In short, this is the volume of the oil you'll need to store every 8 hours to make up for the difference between supply and demand:

full member
Activity: 1540
Merit: 219
April 21, 2020, 03:43:40 AM
#31

So, this crisis was just the last drop in a 1000 gallon barrel.

I really thought that the situation in the oil industry was pretty bad, but now seeing that ZH is again going full throttle about another disaster I'm thinking nothing will happen. Contrarian betting against ZH's agenda is probably the only thing more profitable thing, I doubt even buying BTC at 1 cent would match that.


But how come it doesnt matter to oil industry in the long run? Surely the industry way to big and it can easily overcome the losses they are recurring right now. But lets just consider the current scenario heading up for over few months since pandemic is severe and we have no antidote for it.
We've been hit by this disastrous pandemic, every one is not prepared on this that's why every one is struggling, every market is collapsing and every one is panicking. For some time, Stock and oil market has a pattern, when stock is up and so does the oil market too, vice versa. We're on a month after some countries declared a nationwide quarantine, we might have not seen the worst effect that it could give the markets yet.
Considering use of crude oil in making the fuel, there is no rocket launch, no airplane taking off, no cars/trucks/bikes running for next few months and thus kings barrels are just waste with zero demand. This can rupture the shares for oil industry pretty badly I guess.
Considering this too, maybe oil market is quite safe even the prices is low since there are no consuming of it that much during this times.

The price of oil is really unpredictable and no one is expecting that this will happen. Imagine the price of oil goes down and becomes zero, these collapses are really shocking. This is the time where people are overwhelmed about the volatility of bitcoin, they know that there's something more worst than the price of bitcoin if it crashes. No one is expecting it and no one is prepared as this pandemic really spread faster than we think. Market, Government, and people are really struggling to recover and fight this virus because of the lack of funds that's why people do panic selling of their coins. I think this collapse in crude oil's price is just the beginning and based on my prediction, there are more bad things that will come to us.
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