Some social distancing stuff out of Peru.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rWgO8gTq2Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyrTP9ipuqM
Interesting (and pitiful and shameful to see what the peeps have been reduced to.)
I could not help but notice in the second video the particularly heavy looking EMF towers that the drone picked up on it's way in. The '2 meter seperation' always seemed to me more of a triangulation/tracking MIMO cell technology thing than an epidemiological thing to me, and many doctors say that it is stupid in the context of biologicals. It would be interesting to note if there is a correlation between places where 5G is ready for testing and where 'social distancing' is heavily enforced. A friend of mine just sent me a picture from Baguio City in the Philippines, and I recall that Baguio and Clark were going to be the first test cities for 5G.
I didn't (and don't) think that 5G is causing the 'pandemic' mostly because I don't think that 5G would be cranked up yet or that dangerous power levels, formed beams, and frequency ranges in places where it is installed. Not yet. But then I also don't think that there is an actual pandemic caused by coronavirus or anything else.
That said, amidst the storm of crazy information/mis-information flying around, certain things which are supposed to represent 'covid-19' do seem a much better match for EMF injury than anything seen of any coronavirus yet studied. This would include
- 'crushed glass lung'
- hemoglobin molecule damage
- loss of taste/smell
- toe lesions,
- and most recently, blood clots.
I very well could imagine certain of these being a result of small-scale system testing of the 5G systems which are clearly being super-fast-tracked in the media induced panic of 'covid-19'.
Topic: Coronavirus Outbreak - page 81. (Read 29937 times)
Since the CDC absolutely DID publish information telling doctors to call it Covid-19 (as Bigtree and others showed) no matter what it was, this STILL doesn't control what any individual doctor will do. Perhaps every doctor will disregard what Dr. Brix and the CDC said, and will do the honest thing.
The point that TECSHARE and I have been attempting to point out, doesn't have anything to do with what a doctor will do. Rather, it has to do with what they are instructed by the CDC and Dr. Brix to do.
The point that TECSHARE and I have been attempting to point out, doesn't have anything to do with what a doctor will do. Rather, it has to do with what they are instructed by the CDC and Dr. Brix to do.
no no no and no
bigtree did not understand, read and reiterate what the CDC advice actually said
you conspiracy idiots drummed up that fake narrative
and it has become very obvious now that trump and his advisers get their info from conspiracy websites and fox news..
yep trump stupidly advising brix to investigate injecting bleach into patients.
yep brix not being sure. she is not a scientist.
trump has been shown to just repeat fox news stupidity, near word for word
the CDC report is clear to list the actual symptoms a person suffers from
you have been shown links and quotes and many times of the actual report.
yet your ingorance only wants to follow bigtree's mis-information
^^^ I take it back... much of what I said about you. Here you are, advertising for Freedom's Phoenix. Keep up the good work.
Check out Ernie Hancock and the gang at Freedom's Phoenix - http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/. Ernie is the guy who coaxed Ron Paul into running for President in '08. Ernie and his team find some of the best info around.
Don't change what you believe. Stay ignorant, and away from the real world. There are enough crackpots out there, who don't know what is going on. You'd simply make the conspiracy worse than it is, if you thought you had found out that it was all a conspiracy.
You're right, those guys are gems.
I'm sure I'll get yelled at for throwing shade when its way more funny than insulting but this was reported on a month ago https://local.theonion.com/man-just-buying-one-of-every-cleaning-product-in-case-t-1842493766
A state mandate however is literally force, as in if you disobey it men with guns come and force you comply.
.......
Yes, those precious stats you have so much confidence in are flawed. That is right. Some one who was a car accident, but tested positive for COVID, then later died of the trauma injuries is counted as a COVID death.
.......
Yes, those precious stats you have so much confidence in are flawed. That is right. Some one who was a car accident, but tested positive for COVID, then later died of the trauma injuries is counted as a COVID death.
1. state mandate is not the same as marshal law
no michigans go shot by cops during protests
2. no, someone involved in a road traffic accident will not be classed as a covid death if the only covid symptom is a cough and they die due to injurys from road accident.
you have been watching the same crap as badecker and i debunked his ignorance many times
here is the summary
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54301190
3. no one is forcing you to stay home. you can actually adapt your 'business' to tender to people during this event
#2...
Nobody knows what will happen in any specific car accident until it happens.
Del Bigtree isn't good enough to create a video of Dr. Deborah Brix telling people and doctors to call it Covid-19 if they aren't sure.
Since the CDC absolutely DID publish information telling doctors to call it Covid-19 (as Bigtree and others showed) no matter what it was, this STILL doesn't control what any individual doctor will do. Perhaps every doctor will disregard what Dr. Brix and the CDC said, and will do the honest thing.
The point that TECSHARE and I have been attempting to point out, doesn't have anything to do with what a doctor will do. Rather, it has to do with what they are instructed by the CDC and Dr. Brix to do.
Since we don't know what the conscience and honesty of any doctor will cause him to do - obey his superiors, or simply be honest - there is no way we can tell for sure what the Covid-19/Coronavirus death count really is... not in the USA, anyway.
So, answer three simple questions for me:
1. Will the doctors obey their superiors and call it Covid-19 no matter what it is?
2. Or will they obey their conscience and call it what it really looks like it is to them?
3. How do you know for a fact? I mean, we need facts, not unknowns, like the real Covid-19 death-count is... an unknown.
^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.
Proof that he is an avid reader of conspiracy/pseudo science blogs. Right up your alley.
So, if it doesn't fit your nice little idea of what the world really is, it has to be a conspiracy, right?
^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.
https://www.theonion.com/u-s-blowjobless-rate-at-all-time-high-1819567963
Proof:
Fine, how about the best middle ground reasonable compromise that I can think of because we really aren't going to change each others minds and we're just going to frustrate each other. Don't listen to me or any official reports or media be it what I'd consider credible media or what you consider credible media. Talk to someone directly involved in this that you 100% absolutely trust, be it your personal doctor/nurse that I hope you've built up a long relationship with, or a trusted family friend/neighbor that happens to be a first responder, just someone from an involved field.
No egghead statisticians, TV producers, incomprehensible evil scientists or government lackeys, just someone you personally know with firsthand experience. If they tell you its all a bunch of nonsense then go with it.
Check out Ernie Hancock and the gang at Freedom's Phoenix - http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/. Ernie is the guy who coaxed Ron Paul into running for President in '08. Ernie and his team find some of the best info around.
Don't change what you believe. Stay ignorant, and away from the real world. There are enough crackpots out there, who don't know what is going on. You'd simply make the conspiracy worse than it is, if you thought you had found out that it was all a conspiracy.
With regards to risk analysis, its a game of balancing the risk and reward. The convenience of motor vehicles is something we've agreed is worth taking the risk of dying in a car crash, but we wear seat belts and strive for higher safety engineering. 1 in 900,000 people will choke to death this month. Last month, 1 in 82,500 died of Covid. So far this month it was 1 in 6600. Absolutely, certain things in life are unavoidable. We live surrounded by dogs, vehicles, fast food, bath tubs all things that can kill you. You can't live paralyzed by fear, but we typically strive to make the best possible choices for our own well being.
You brought up an interesting point about the asymptomatic thing. On one hand, we may consider ourselves lucky that Covid doesn't have the 35% mortality rate of MERS. On the other hand, when you catch the flu, you know within a day or two and are then on your couch eating soup until you're feeling better. With Covid, you're running around feeling fine exposing other people who may or may not end up feeling fine. You could go out for a jog and then go chat with Grandma or little Timmy, and then they've croaked. The death statistics are important, but the hospitalization rate is also incredibly important. Assuming medical care is available, its not cheap. The things that put you in the high risk category for Covid aren't just rare lung diseases or being 97 years old. They're things like obesity, asthma, high blood pressure, and diabetes, things that effect more than 50% of Americans. There are essentially four outcomes with Covid, either you are asymptomatic and don't get sick at all, you get a really shitty but not life threatening two week illness, you end up in the hospital with a mountain of medical bills, or you die (and still wrack up medical bills). Three out of four of those are bad options, and option #1 isn't fantastic either for the sake of spread of contagion.
Every decision we will ever make is based on predictions. We predicted and are still predicting the effects of Covid, time will tell how things end up, but its typically better to contain the problem rather than try to deal with it later if its possible to at all. We can both throw out a million what if scenarios, what if we had shut down all international travel in January, or if New York's travel restrictions weren't put in place and we had hundreds of thousands of people traveling from New York to our states today? What I'm finding interesting is that people want to compare based on the results right this moment rather than the predictions. There were 4000 deaths last month, 50,000 so far this month, shouldn't we wait until the number stops jumping before we start drawing conclusions about mission success? I'm glad it hasn't been climbing exponentially to this point but what number next month do you think would justify the current measures? If we stay level and tack on another 50,000 next month would we be winning the battle? If it hops up to 500,000 are we losing?
I'd have to look at a lot of data before making a statement about empty hospitals, that hasn't been my experience, but I'm also looking at the mid Atlantic to northeast corridor, not the country as a whole in depth. We've got fancy statistics here on hospital capacity, death demographics and all sorts of other interesting things if you'd like to take a look. https://coronavirus.maryland.gov/
Ah, quick final thought, its a prediction that having covid right now will leave you immune next month. Its a fairly new development that covid is causing blood clots in patients. We don't know for certain whether covid will become a seasonal thing like the flu, we don't know if it'll be convenient like the flu and give us a full year before a new strain makes its way around, we don't know know for certain that this isn't a one and done situation.
*edit*
Would you mind sharing where you're finding hospital bed availability data? I'm trying to search by state, in general, but I'm not finding anything besides buzzfeed articles from March.
*edit edit*
When I say I'm supporting a unified effort, I mean this is acceptable: https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/#criteria
I'm good with following this plan. What I'm not content with is disregarding the plan because individuals decide for themselves that they're tired of staying home and the beaches are nice this time of year. Letting individuals pick and choose what criteria they feel like following puts the entire country's health in jeopardy. The white house put together their team, they made a plan of action for how we can tell we're ready to reopen and how to safely reopen and monitor to make sure it stays within expectations. If things start getting out of hand, we step backward rather than jumping to stage 3 right now and then spending the next year playing containment and dealing with collateral damage.
*edit edit edit*
So I did find some information on hospital bed availability. https://covidtracking.com/data this site redirects you to each individual state's "best current data source for ____" and maybe half or so have information on availability of hospital beds. I'm seeing pretty consistent 33-50% availability in non heavily impacted states. Colorado, Illinois, Alaska, Indiana, etc.
You brought up an interesting point about the asymptomatic thing. On one hand, we may consider ourselves lucky that Covid doesn't have the 35% mortality rate of MERS. On the other hand, when you catch the flu, you know within a day or two and are then on your couch eating soup until you're feeling better. With Covid, you're running around feeling fine exposing other people who may or may not end up feeling fine. You could go out for a jog and then go chat with Grandma or little Timmy, and then they've croaked. The death statistics are important, but the hospitalization rate is also incredibly important. Assuming medical care is available, its not cheap. The things that put you in the high risk category for Covid aren't just rare lung diseases or being 97 years old. They're things like obesity, asthma, high blood pressure, and diabetes, things that effect more than 50% of Americans. There are essentially four outcomes with Covid, either you are asymptomatic and don't get sick at all, you get a really shitty but not life threatening two week illness, you end up in the hospital with a mountain of medical bills, or you die (and still wrack up medical bills). Three out of four of those are bad options, and option #1 isn't fantastic either for the sake of spread of contagion.
Every decision we will ever make is based on predictions. We predicted and are still predicting the effects of Covid, time will tell how things end up, but its typically better to contain the problem rather than try to deal with it later if its possible to at all. We can both throw out a million what if scenarios, what if we had shut down all international travel in January, or if New York's travel restrictions weren't put in place and we had hundreds of thousands of people traveling from New York to our states today? What I'm finding interesting is that people want to compare based on the results right this moment rather than the predictions. There were 4000 deaths last month, 50,000 so far this month, shouldn't we wait until the number stops jumping before we start drawing conclusions about mission success? I'm glad it hasn't been climbing exponentially to this point but what number next month do you think would justify the current measures? If we stay level and tack on another 50,000 next month would we be winning the battle? If it hops up to 500,000 are we losing?
I'd have to look at a lot of data before making a statement about empty hospitals, that hasn't been my experience, but I'm also looking at the mid Atlantic to northeast corridor, not the country as a whole in depth. We've got fancy statistics here on hospital capacity, death demographics and all sorts of other interesting things if you'd like to take a look. https://coronavirus.maryland.gov/
Ah, quick final thought, its a prediction that having covid right now will leave you immune next month. Its a fairly new development that covid is causing blood clots in patients. We don't know for certain whether covid will become a seasonal thing like the flu, we don't know if it'll be convenient like the flu and give us a full year before a new strain makes its way around, we don't know know for certain that this isn't a one and done situation.
*edit*
Would you mind sharing where you're finding hospital bed availability data? I'm trying to search by state, in general, but I'm not finding anything besides buzzfeed articles from March.
*edit edit*
When I say I'm supporting a unified effort, I mean this is acceptable: https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/#criteria
I'm good with following this plan. What I'm not content with is disregarding the plan because individuals decide for themselves that they're tired of staying home and the beaches are nice this time of year. Letting individuals pick and choose what criteria they feel like following puts the entire country's health in jeopardy. The white house put together their team, they made a plan of action for how we can tell we're ready to reopen and how to safely reopen and monitor to make sure it stays within expectations. If things start getting out of hand, we step backward rather than jumping to stage 3 right now and then spending the next year playing containment and dealing with collateral damage.
*edit edit edit*
So I did find some information on hospital bed availability. https://covidtracking.com/data this site redirects you to each individual state's "best current data source for ____" and maybe half or so have information on availability of hospital beds. I'm seeing pretty consistent 33-50% availability in non heavily impacted states. Colorado, Illinois, Alaska, Indiana, etc.
The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.
When you're dealing with something figure out when something that's growing exponentially is going to end, being off by a factor of 10 isn't some huge miss. From March 15 till the first week of April the number of Cases and Deaths increased by ~100x, they had run out of hospital rooms , doctors, nurses and PPE, shutting down public transportation is not an option and nobody knows how many of the 9 million residents were still in the city.Preparing for the worst case scenario isn't wrong just because it didn't happen.
With coronavirus, people are being put out of work, and are having their rights stripped. Many people also have increased anxiety due to fear of not being able to provide for their families, and for catching coronavirus. This increased anxiety is going to cause an increase in heart attacks. On the topic of heart attacks, hospital admissions for heart attacks are way down; this is likely a result of people choosing to not go to the hospital. This will inevitably lead to more heart attack deaths. This is a small sample of the real costs of doing too much.
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths.
I'm sure there are some people that tested positive and then got hit by a bus or ODed or something, but in NY (and I think NJ), they stopped testing dead bodies found in their home. They were estimating 150-200 a day likely Covid deaths were not reported when NY was on that stretch of 700-800 deaths every day for a while.To respond to your comment, there are a lot of people that die every year. Based on a life expectancy of 78.5, about 12k people die every day in the US. Health officials are giving priority to people who are more likely to die (vulnerable groups) for testing, so they are probably catching a higher percentage of people who will soon die who have coronavirus than the population as a whole.
As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
I don't think people congregating in public negate effects of keeping non essential businesses closed.Most will hang out with the same people, close to their home.
If you just open everything up there will be tons more interactions among strangers coming from far and wide. Best case is everything just kind of works out - and that's possible. Worst case is the economy takes even more damage and takes many times longer to recover than if we just did things slowly and methodically.
There also doesn't appear to be a link between when lockdowns were put into effect and death rates measured by population.
Based on various antibody studies, it appears likely that most people who have coronavirus will not even know they have it. Around 70% of the population or so need to either be vaccinated or have recovered from the virus in order for it to stop spreading. If we can predict who will be seriously ill with reasonable certainty, people not in these categories should go about their business, and return to work. Some of these people may still die, however, if we don't open up our economy, these people will be more likely to die from the side effects of the lockdown, and if they survive the lockdown, they will likely contract the virus anyway...
edit:
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths. The number of deaths in nursing homes is being increased by an executive order from Cuomo that forces nursing homes to admit patients regardless of their status of having coronavirus. People in nursing homes are the most vulnerable to die if they get coronavirus, and Governor Cuomo is forcing nursing homes to receive patients with coronavirus, and prohibiting nursing homes from even asking if a patient has been tested for coronavirus.
As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
Your statement regarding unemployment in parentheses is correct. The conditions for getting unemployment were changed due to corona virus. When you legally can work whether every doctor (and the federal government) is saying DO NOT, your unemployment stops getting paid to you. The legal protections in place now keeping the utility companies from turning off service and all of the other related emergency measures dry up when the emergency measures end. So, while you in theory have a choice whether you go back to work or not, your real choice is go back to work or have your lights turned off. I quickly digress that unemployment is not welfare because someone will bring it up if I dont. A portion of your paycheck is withheld from you to pay you in case you end up needing it. No one is sitting on their asses collecting checks, they're just getting their own money back without interest. Its as much a gift from the government as your tax refund when they overcharge you the rest of the year.
. The thing that kills me about the predictions being called unreliable is how linear regression works. You get a bunch of statisticians in a room that ask for raw data on how infection travels from people who specialize in the spread of viruses. Check out the yearly flu prediction competitions and you'll see that these same people often end up off by a few thousand cases world wide. What people are finding fault in isn't the models, its that the models cannot predict parameters that aren't given to it. They couldn't predict mandatory social distancing measures before the idea of mandatory social distancing measures were considered.
The models have actually included assumptions that people would be forced to social distance and be forced into lockdowns. If the models are not reliable, they should not be used to make public policy decisions that force people out of work and that remove their rights. If someone does not have reliable data, or cannot make an accurate prediction with given inputs, they should decline to make a prediction. Frankly, the politicians are making a predetermined decision would get the basis for their predetermined decision from another "expert" who is willing to support the decision.
When the actual values fall well outside of the 95% confidence of a model after multiple revisions, the best course of action is for the people creating the models to find a new line of work.
Just imagine how many people would get the flu if we went through these lengths? You'd likely see the ~45 million yearly cases become substantially less, though we don't need to because the real risk is mitigated by the vaccine. The predictions decreasing from the worst case scenario means that we're doing something right. When the predictions go in the opposite direction, that means we're likely doing something wrong.
I am not sure what you are saying here. The models are taking everything we are doing into account. There were an estimated 56 million flu cases last year -- with a vaccine. Keeping the patient load under hospital capacity is incredibly important as you mentioned. I don't know where the hospitals are empty, but I'm glad they aren't having corona issues at this time and I hope it remains that way.
Hospitals are empty in the majority of the country, basically everywhere except New York. In New York, most of the 'field hospitals' were not utilized. Several field hospitals were set up throughout the county without tending to a single patient. Quote
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus.
*edit* Heres what should be an acceptable source for the NY dying at home thing I mentioned. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/08/829506542/after-deaths-at-home-in-nyc-officials-plan-to-count-many-as-covid-19
Dr.Birx is part of the corona virus task force, she does not have the authority to set any standards for the CDC to follow.*edit* Heres what should be an acceptable source for the NY dying at home thing I mentioned. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/08/829506542/after-deaths-at-home-in-nyc-officials-plan-to-count-many-as-covid-19
Not everyone who dies at home died from the coronavirus. As discussed in my response to twitchy, many people are not seeking medical care for heart attacks (and other things) when they should be.
The number of people who die from coronavirus is being watched closely by most Americans. The number of people who die from heart attacks is not.
Quote
As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
And your final point that I was excited to get to. While your conclusion is slightly different than mine, this is the whole point I've been trying to get across. A good solid brief period of lockdown would help out immensely. Every time people ignore the recommendations and get themselves or others sick, they extend the lockdown for everyone. Our choices are a shorter and effective unified effort, or a surprisingly small number of jerks can extend this out for months for us. If we could trust everyone to take personal responsibility, we'd have recommendations, not orders. So now we have to put up with orders instead of recommendations, and the clock starts going again. The goal is to move away from orders and back to recommendations. If we don't move forward with this, we get more strict orders. In Europe they actually enforced stay at home orders, here they're nicely telling us to stay at home unless your travel is essential. It'd be awfully nice if we could avoid that.
....instead of lashing out like an angry child that got told he is too big for his binky. This is just pathetically weak.
My irony meter just pegged and broke.
You know what dude? Everytime I read your rebuttals and I hit this type of shit , you just lose all credibility in my eyes.
Why do you always have to be a prick when putting forth your argument?
I'm fine with Tecshare being a prick, what gets to me is how you act like a prick, someone responds in kind, and then you pull the victim card and can immediately discredit anything anyone says because they had the audacity to criticize you (or others apparently). You would disagree with someone reading you the dictionary if they prefaced it with an insult.
I would point out that if the economy were to reopen today, those who choose not to return to work would be in the same situation they are in today -- without a way to earn an income or support their family. They would still receive unemployment benefits (even though they are technically ineligible due to declining work, but I doubt states are checking/care).
If the economy were to open up, people would have the choice to either continue staying home or return to work.
The initial argument to close the economy was not to prevent people from getting infected, it was to cause infections to spread over a longer period of time so the healthcare system can operate at under 100% capacity, and provide care for everyone who might be saved from receiving care. In most of the country, hospitals are sitting empty, and many medical professionals are being furloughed.
The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths. The number of deaths in nursing homes is being increased by an executive order from Cuomo that forces nursing homes to admit patients regardless of their status of having coronavirus. People in nursing homes are the most vulnerable to die if they get coronavirus, and Governor Cuomo is forcing nursing homes to receive patients with coronavirus, and prohibiting nursing homes from even asking if a patient has been tested for coronavirus.
As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
If the economy were to open up, people would have the choice to either continue staying home or return to work.
The initial argument to close the economy was not to prevent people from getting infected, it was to cause infections to spread over a longer period of time so the healthcare system can operate at under 100% capacity, and provide care for everyone who might be saved from receiving care. In most of the country, hospitals are sitting empty, and many medical professionals are being furloughed.
The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths. The number of deaths in nursing homes is being increased by an executive order from Cuomo that forces nursing homes to admit patients regardless of their status of having coronavirus. People in nursing homes are the most vulnerable to die if they get coronavirus, and Governor Cuomo is forcing nursing homes to receive patients with coronavirus, and prohibiting nursing homes from even asking if a patient has been tested for coronavirus.
As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
Your statement regarding unemployment in parentheses is correct. The conditions for getting unemployment were changed due to corona virus. When you legally can work whether every doctor (and the federal government) is saying DO NOT, your unemployment stops getting paid to you. The legal protections in place now keeping the utility companies from turning off service and all of the other related emergency measures dry up when the emergency measures end. So, while you in theory have a choice whether you go back to work or not, your real choice is go back to work or have your lights turned off. I quickly digress that unemployment is not welfare because someone will bring it up if I dont. A portion of your paycheck is withheld from you to pay you in case you end up needing it. No one is sitting on their asses collecting checks, they're just getting their own money back without interest. Its as much a gift from the government as your tax refund when they overcharge you the rest of the year.
A unified plan keeps people from being tossed out on the street until the conditions are met to safely reopen. The thing that kills me about the predictions being called unreliable is how linear regression works. You get a bunch of statisticians in a room that ask for raw data on how infection travels from people who specialize in the spread of viruses. Check out the yearly flu prediction competitions and you'll see that these same people often end up off by a few thousand cases world wide. What people are finding fault in isn't the models, its that the models cannot predict parameters that aren't given to it. They couldn't predict mandatory social distancing measures before the idea of mandatory social distancing measures were considered. Just imagine how many people would get the flu if we went through these lengths? You'd likely see the ~45 million yearly cases become substantially less, though we don't need to because the real risk is mitigated by the vaccine. The predictions decreasing from the worst case scenario means that we're doing something right. When the predictions go in the opposite direction, that means we're likely doing something wrong.
Keeping the patient load under hospital capacity is incredibly important as you mentioned. I don't know where the hospitals are empty, but I'm glad they aren't having corona issues at this time and I hope it remains that way. I obviously understand that New York is going to be hit harder than Montana, so it absolutely makes sense to have Montana open up on a different date than New York. I'm advocating that we all follow the same federal guidelines regarding conditions for opening and not letting Jim the plumber decide when hes ready to go back to work. It should make sense that Montana being impacted less so than New York would also reach those conditions sooner. I'm in Maryland and we've been hit fairly hard because of interstate travel. A lot of people here travel for work, lots of government employees and such, and thats why we're disproportionately effected despite aggressive measures to slow it down. Maryland and Virginia are working on our states situations jointly because both governors understand that if you lift restrictions in border states, people will travel from one to another and if both aren't ready, we get a few more months of lockdown instead of steady cautious reopening. Georgia for example has a vested interest in also monitoring whats going on in Alabama, Florida, North Carolina, and Tennessee. The goal is that nice steady reopening, not going "Oh shit, we opened a week early, quick we need to contain" mode."
Quote
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus.
Dr.Birx is part of the corona virus task force, she does not have the authority to set any standards for the CDC to follow. The CDC reported statistics are by their own standards as others have posted in this thread. Each state, the CDC, the media, etc has their own method of reporting. For the sake of consistency, I've used the CDC's report when talking about any numbers as they are the most universally trustworthy source we can go for. There are absolutely errors in the numbers, the people who are getting tested are those deemed necessary of getting tested. I got tested and had my results back within 24 hours, other people are just told, yeah sounds like you've got covid, stay home (they aren't counted). On the other hand, there are a lot of unexplained deaths that may or may not be covid related. New York had significantly more people found dead at home than normal (I want to say it was 8x greater than normal but I'll update with the number after finding a reputable source) , we don't know what portion of them died due to the flu, covid, etc. I'll just say its likely that we are under reporting deaths, and under reporting the number of cases. I don't know about the nursing home thing, I'll just say thats awfully shitty.Quote
As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
And your final point that I was excited to get to. While your conclusion is slightly different than mine, this is the whole point I've been trying to get across. A good solid brief period of lockdown would help out immensely. Every time people ignore the recommendations and get themselves or others sick, they extend the lockdown for everyone. Our choices are a shorter and effective unified effort, or a surprisingly small number of jerks can extend this out for months for us. If we could trust everyone to take personal responsibility, we'd have recommendations, not orders. So now we have to put up with orders instead of recommendations, and the clock starts going again. The goal is to move away from orders and back to recommendations. If we don't move forward with this, we get more strict orders. In Europe they actually enforced stay at home orders, here they're nicely telling us to stay at home unless your travel is essential. It'd be awfully nice if we could avoid that.
*edit* Heres what should be an acceptable source for the NY dying at home thing I mentioned. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/08/829506542/after-deaths-at-home-in-nyc-officials-plan-to-count-many-as-covid-19
im starting to think these ignorant people dont want business to open up for economic growth. thy instead are just immature and sad that they cant go to disneyworld this summer
The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.
When you're trying to figure out when something that's growing exponentially is going to end, being off by a factor of 10 isn't as big of a miss as it sounds. From March 15 till the first week of April the number of Cases and Deaths increased by ~100x, they were about to run out of hospital rooms , doctors, nurses and PPE, shutting down public transportation is not an option and nobody knewhow many of the 9 million residents were still in the city. There were a shitload of unknowns.Preparing for the worst case scenario isn't wrong just because it didn't happen - the whole narrative of making him out to be 'wrong' is purely political.
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths.
I'm sure there are some people that tested positive and then got hit by a bus or ODed or something, but in NY (and I think NJ), they stopped testing dead bodies found in their home. They were estimating 150-200 a day likely Covid deaths were not reported when NY was on that stretch of 700-800 deaths every day for a while.As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
I don't think people congregating in public negate effects of keeping non essential businesses closed.Most will hang out with the same people, close to their home.
If you just open everything up there will be tons more interactions among strangers coming from far and wide. Best case is everything just kind of works out - and that's possible. Worst case is the economy takes even more damage and takes many times longer to recover than if we just did things slowly and methodically.
The no one is being forced to come to work thing is an absolute joke, you know just as well as I do the power employers hold over their employees. Look at the meat processing plants where they were told to come in sick otherwise they'd risk losing their jobs.
I would point out that if the economy were to reopen today, those who choose not to return to work would be in the same situation they are in today -- without a way to earn an income or support their family. They would still receive unemployment benefits (even though they are technically ineligible due to declining work, but I doubt states are checking/care). If the economy were to open up, people would have the choice to either continue staying home or return to work.
The initial argument to close the economy was not to prevent people from getting infected, it was to cause infections to spread over a longer period of time so the healthcare system can operate at under 100% capacity, and provide care for everyone who might be saved from receiving care. In most of the country, hospitals are sitting empty, and many medical professionals are being furloughed.
The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.
Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths. The number of deaths in nursing homes is being increased by an executive order from Cuomo that forces nursing homes to admit patients regardless of their status of having coronavirus. People in nursing homes are the most vulnerable to die if they get coronavirus, and Governor Cuomo is forcing nursing homes to receive patients with coronavirus, and prohibiting nursing homes from even asking if a patient has been tested for coronavirus.
As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.
A state mandate however is literally force, as in if you disobey it men with guns come and force you comply.
.......
Yes, those precious stats you have so much confidence in are flawed. That is right. Some one who was a car accident, but tested positive for COVID, then later died of the trauma injuries is counted as a COVID death.
.......
Yes, those precious stats you have so much confidence in are flawed. That is right. Some one who was a car accident, but tested positive for COVID, then later died of the trauma injuries is counted as a COVID death.
1. state mandate is not the same as marshal law
no michigans go shot by cops during protests
2. no, someone involved in a road traffic accident will not be classed as a covid death if the only covid symptom is a cough and they die due to injurys from road accident.
you have been watching the same crap as badecker and i debunked his ignorance many times
here is the summary
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54301190
3. no one is forcing you to stay home. you can actually adapt your 'business' to tender to people during this event
....instead of lashing out like an angry child that got told he is too big for his binky. This is just pathetically weak.
My irony meter just pegged and broke.
You know what dude? Everytime I read your rebuttals and I hit this type of shit , you just lose all credibility in my eyes.
Why do you always have to be a prick when putting forth your argument?
^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.
https://www.theonion.com/u-s-blowjobless-rate-at-all-time-high-1819567963
Proof:
Fine, how about the best middle ground reasonable compromise that I can think of because we really aren't going to change each others minds and we're just going to frustrate each other. Don't listen to me or any official reports or media be it what I'd consider credible media or what you consider credible media. Talk to someone directly involved in this that you 100% absolutely trust, be it your personal doctor/nurse that I hope you've built up a long relationship with, or a trusted family friend/neighbor that happens to be a first responder, just someone from an involved field.
No egghead statisticians, TV producers, incomprehensible evil scientists or government lackeys, just someone you personally know with firsthand experience. If they tell you its all a bunch of nonsense then go with it.
^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.
Proof that he is an avid reader of conspiracy/pseudo science blogs. Right up your alley.
^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.
As to the self declared superiority claim, I'm claiming that the thousands of people who's job it is to do the analysis are superior to both of us at the task of advising on what our best course of action is. I'm just curious how many millions of hours you've spent sifting through the raw data, talking to individual business owners to see what losses they're experiencing, and where you've gathered your data that you're drawing all of your conclusions from? Unfortunately, I don't have the resources, ability, or personnel to do that personally, so I rely on others to do that for me, and hope that discrepancies found between Team USA and Team Canada for example would help to clear up any errors along the way.
I apologize for the ad hominem comments, stupid people don't frustrate me, smart people that act stupid do. I feel it absolutely unnecessary to explain why your claims about probable corona virus deaths and reporting is an outright lie because again, I don't believe that you believe what you are saying. You know as well as I do how pathologists do post mortem reports, they don't spin the wheel to decide what to write down as a cause of death. If you come into a hospital with a stab wound, cancer, seasonal allergies, and a cavity and you bleed out from your stab wound, your cause of death is not listed as seasonal allergies. Please look again at what your own CDC link says about the separation between probable and confirmed corona virus cases, as well as the part about data lagging up to a week and being constantly amended. If you die of pneumonia from the flu and it gets listed as probable corona virus death, what happens next week when you test negative? Ah, the number gets amended, fantastic.
That is absolutely reasonable, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, and you call it a duck only later to find out it was a quacking waddling chicken, the record gets changed when you find out its a chicken. Hospitals have oversight committees, its a group of jackasses that represent the hospital and watch for lawsuit risks. If Coroner A is doing something that could get them sued, they cut that out.
This is literally a job people do every single day when they make forecasts on the economy. Calculus and computers make magic! My only point that I've now brought up literally four times now in this thread, is that while it might be asinine for me to claim that I've done all of these calculations personally, its business as usual for the people who's job it is to map out the correlation between how often people change their underwear and how well the economy is doing. Do you know how much more complicated predicting the weather is than this?
Just keep in mind that if you have a pet dog and you're eating a chocolate bar and refusing to give any to the dog, from the dog's point of view, you're just an asshole who doesn't want to share.
I apologize for the ad hominem comments, stupid people don't frustrate me, smart people that act stupid do. I feel it absolutely unnecessary to explain why your claims about probable corona virus deaths and reporting is an outright lie because again, I don't believe that you believe what you are saying. You know as well as I do how pathologists do post mortem reports, they don't spin the wheel to decide what to write down as a cause of death. If you come into a hospital with a stab wound, cancer, seasonal allergies, and a cavity and you bleed out from your stab wound, your cause of death is not listed as seasonal allergies. Please look again at what your own CDC link says about the separation between probable and confirmed corona virus cases, as well as the part about data lagging up to a week and being constantly amended. If you die of pneumonia from the flu and it gets listed as probable corona virus death, what happens next week when you test negative? Ah, the number gets amended, fantastic.
That is absolutely reasonable, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, and you call it a duck only later to find out it was a quacking waddling chicken, the record gets changed when you find out its a chicken. Hospitals have oversight committees, its a group of jackasses that represent the hospital and watch for lawsuit risks. If Coroner A is doing something that could get them sued, they cut that out.
Quote
Once again, this is not just about a 1 dimensional cost benefit analysis. The claim that these analyses factor in long term macro economic factors is not only asinine, but is factually impossible. There is NO WAY such a complex system of inter-dependencies were factored into this equation, because the market effects on a macro scale are not quantifiable in any reliable sense.
This is literally a job people do every single day when they make forecasts on the economy. Calculus and computers make magic! My only point that I've now brought up literally four times now in this thread, is that while it might be asinine for me to claim that I've done all of these calculations personally, its business as usual for the people who's job it is to map out the correlation between how often people change their underwear and how well the economy is doing. Do you know how much more complicated predicting the weather is than this?
Quote
Your rights end when they infringe on the rights of others.
I could not agree with you more. Your right to enjoy a nice bowling game does not outweigh the life of the guy handling the ball after you. Everyone is dealing with this together, grow up, deal with it like an adult and not an angry kid that can't deal with being told what to do. We can all stay home for a month, or half of the population can stay home for a year while the other half disregards the order and takes up precious resources that they don't deserve.Just keep in mind that if you have a pet dog and you're eating a chocolate bar and refusing to give any to the dog, from the dog's point of view, you're just an asshole who doesn't want to share.
Yes, any opinion you have on someone is an attack. If you disagree or think someone is a moron, its an attack. Keep playing the victim card, its a pretty strong tool to gather sympathy for shallow arguments. The USA is not powerful, its one of the most fragile nations in the world because our citizens outright hate each other. We've got a government thats accountable to no one and makes us look like fools, while starting fires all over the world. Travel outside of your bubble and see how much people despise us, its sort of a bummer having to claim to be Canadian when you travel to Europe at the risk of your safety, or having suppliers in China/India/Pakistan not want to do business with you because they don't like Americans.
You are outright lying about caring about other people and all of your bullshit about covid statistics, no one of sound mind is buying it. You obviously have no idea what medical oversight boards and hospital standards are. Your statements about causes of death are demonstrably false. Again, in case I haven't made it abundantly clear, the economic impact has already been factored in. I doubt you need a simple math lesson, but when opening a business that creates $100k per year in wealth costs the country $280k, that is bad. Remember the middle school economics example where there is a graph of supply and demand for a CD at different price points, and they find that intersection where demand and price is maximized to create the most profit? The thousands of medical professionals, business leaders, and statisticians all worked together to do one of those fancy graphs on when it makes sense to reopen the government. When the expected cost of reopening becomes lower than the cost of staying closed, and the conditions that we'll need to see for that to be the case. Opening too early causes more homelessness, poverty, and all of that other stuff you are pretending to care about for the sake of your half assed argument. Lets put the flames out with gasoline is not a valid game plan, it sucks that the world is dealing with a global crisis, but its embarrassing that we are the only country with any significant amount of nut jobs protesting while nurses desperately try to keep them alive. If you want to get sick, chances are you'll just be ill for a couple of weeks but be fine. Don't expose others, and don't go to the hospital and take the resources that should be devoted to people who aren't rushing to their own deaths because they can't trust the big bad gubmint. For literally once in our lifetimes, the government plan aligns with our own interest, but we're so used to getting boned by them that we've got to express ourselves against them like some rebellious goth teenager that wants a nose ring. Theres wisdom in questioning and selectively fighting battles. You're just a brat if you're fighting for the sake of fighting.
I'm not saying who gives a shit about the economy, I'm saying we can deal with it in the near future. Its hard to come together and fix a problem if we're at each other's throats because your decisions have negative impacts on society as a whole. Even harder if we aren't alive to fix the problem. Again, if you want to be a realists, we can even toss out the whole emotional aspect of people dying and just talk about the chances you run of racking up a life time of medical debt. This isn't the sniffles, something that holds a significant percent chance of hospitalization is a big deal. How many people will go bankrupt and become homeless because they can't pay their ICU bills? We've actually got those statistics, and they aren't very happy.
Look at you bowing to authority is not an argument, the authority is telling us not to die and we're telling them, you can't tell us what to do! They've got a vested interest in not tanking the economy, in keeping you alive to continue paying your taxes, but nah, lets not listen to them because we are the authority now. Why is no one protesting bridges? Why do you trust engineers that think they are the authority on what can keep a building from falling down or a bridge from collapsing? Do your own electrical work, put out your own house fires, do your own architecture work, and manage the treatment of your own water, otherwise you are a authority bowing stooge the same way I am. Sadly we don't live long enough lives to become experts on all subjects, so we rely on other people to figure some things out for us. Don't get onto an airplane or into a car until you know for certain they aren't designed to kill us. When the government doesn't have a reason to screw us over, what they have is the resources to gather real data and pay teams of people that can put millions of man hours into solving a problem.
This isn't a safe time to throw your tinfoil hat on and think about all the ways the man is trying to get you. If you want to theorize about the moon landing or 9/11 you aren't actively endangering anyone. Think and do whatever you want as long as you aren't a burden on others. If trusting thousands of professionals that are collaborating with thousands of other professionals in other fields, with the gathered resources of a government entity, and in general collaboration with independent teams of other professionals/business leaders rather than listening to Jim the pissed off tattoo artist makes me a fool, I'm good with being a fool.
*edit*
Just thought I'd add, I'm in Maryland and am incredibly pleased with how the response has been. Governor Hogan is a republican governor in a blue state that has been exceedingly popular because hes willing to put aside infighting to deal with whatever the issue is. He said from the onset that he's got a staff hes confident with and is following the advise of the world's leading medical facilities here in the state. He was treated by Johns Hopkins for cancer so he knows just how incredibly competent they are. Hes put out his road map for opening back up the state which I'm assuming you are approving of since you posted a link about it. I too approve of it because its responsibly crafted and appears to have a good measure of safety and realism factored in. I'm not saying we should keep everything shut down forever, but we should be listening to the teams of competent people we put in charge because they're competent, rather than refusing to follow their orders because we can't comply or we'll be government toadies.
Remember friends, the government says that drinking and driving and smoking cigarettes is bad for you. They also say you should eat fruit and vegetables, and take it easy on the fats and sugars, but if you agree with any of that, you're a government stooge. If you aren't smoking crack and eating slim jims, you're part of the problem.
You are outright lying about caring about other people and all of your bullshit about covid statistics, no one of sound mind is buying it. You obviously have no idea what medical oversight boards and hospital standards are. Your statements about causes of death are demonstrably false. Again, in case I haven't made it abundantly clear, the economic impact has already been factored in. I doubt you need a simple math lesson, but when opening a business that creates $100k per year in wealth costs the country $280k, that is bad. Remember the middle school economics example where there is a graph of supply and demand for a CD at different price points, and they find that intersection where demand and price is maximized to create the most profit? The thousands of medical professionals, business leaders, and statisticians all worked together to do one of those fancy graphs on when it makes sense to reopen the government. When the expected cost of reopening becomes lower than the cost of staying closed, and the conditions that we'll need to see for that to be the case. Opening too early causes more homelessness, poverty, and all of that other stuff you are pretending to care about for the sake of your half assed argument. Lets put the flames out with gasoline is not a valid game plan, it sucks that the world is dealing with a global crisis, but its embarrassing that we are the only country with any significant amount of nut jobs protesting while nurses desperately try to keep them alive. If you want to get sick, chances are you'll just be ill for a couple of weeks but be fine. Don't expose others, and don't go to the hospital and take the resources that should be devoted to people who aren't rushing to their own deaths because they can't trust the big bad gubmint. For literally once in our lifetimes, the government plan aligns with our own interest, but we're so used to getting boned by them that we've got to express ourselves against them like some rebellious goth teenager that wants a nose ring. Theres wisdom in questioning and selectively fighting battles. You're just a brat if you're fighting for the sake of fighting.
I'm not saying who gives a shit about the economy, I'm saying we can deal with it in the near future. Its hard to come together and fix a problem if we're at each other's throats because your decisions have negative impacts on society as a whole. Even harder if we aren't alive to fix the problem. Again, if you want to be a realists, we can even toss out the whole emotional aspect of people dying and just talk about the chances you run of racking up a life time of medical debt. This isn't the sniffles, something that holds a significant percent chance of hospitalization is a big deal. How many people will go bankrupt and become homeless because they can't pay their ICU bills? We've actually got those statistics, and they aren't very happy.
Look at you bowing to authority is not an argument, the authority is telling us not to die and we're telling them, you can't tell us what to do! They've got a vested interest in not tanking the economy, in keeping you alive to continue paying your taxes, but nah, lets not listen to them because we are the authority now. Why is no one protesting bridges? Why do you trust engineers that think they are the authority on what can keep a building from falling down or a bridge from collapsing? Do your own electrical work, put out your own house fires, do your own architecture work, and manage the treatment of your own water, otherwise you are a authority bowing stooge the same way I am. Sadly we don't live long enough lives to become experts on all subjects, so we rely on other people to figure some things out for us. Don't get onto an airplane or into a car until you know for certain they aren't designed to kill us. When the government doesn't have a reason to screw us over, what they have is the resources to gather real data and pay teams of people that can put millions of man hours into solving a problem.
This isn't a safe time to throw your tinfoil hat on and think about all the ways the man is trying to get you. If you want to theorize about the moon landing or 9/11 you aren't actively endangering anyone. Think and do whatever you want as long as you aren't a burden on others. If trusting thousands of professionals that are collaborating with thousands of other professionals in other fields, with the gathered resources of a government entity, and in general collaboration with independent teams of other professionals/business leaders rather than listening to Jim the pissed off tattoo artist makes me a fool, I'm good with being a fool.
*edit*
"Maryland Joins Push To End Lockdowns"
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/maryland-joins-push-end-lockdowns-china-claims-coronavirus-has-been-eradicated-wuhan
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/maryland-joins-push-end-lockdowns-china-claims-coronavirus-has-been-eradicated-wuhan
Just thought I'd add, I'm in Maryland and am incredibly pleased with how the response has been. Governor Hogan is a republican governor in a blue state that has been exceedingly popular because hes willing to put aside infighting to deal with whatever the issue is. He said from the onset that he's got a staff hes confident with and is following the advise of the world's leading medical facilities here in the state. He was treated by Johns Hopkins for cancer so he knows just how incredibly competent they are. Hes put out his road map for opening back up the state which I'm assuming you are approving of since you posted a link about it. I too approve of it because its responsibly crafted and appears to have a good measure of safety and realism factored in. I'm not saying we should keep everything shut down forever, but we should be listening to the teams of competent people we put in charge because they're competent, rather than refusing to follow their orders because we can't comply or we'll be government toadies.
Remember friends, the government says that drinking and driving and smoking cigarettes is bad for you. They also say you should eat fruit and vegetables, and take it easy on the fats and sugars, but if you agree with any of that, you're a government stooge. If you aren't smoking crack and eating slim jims, you're part of the problem.
I don't really care about Trump one way or another so I don't need to attack or defend him, I think the man is a moron personally, but I also respect people's right to vote for a moron if they so choose.
I would say your naivety is cute, but I know you are smarter than some of the others here, and you are deliberately leaving things out to make an argument to what you feel has more importance. My point about every other country in the world was to say that its ridiculous to think that this is an internal political game we're playing when nearly every other country in the world is dealing with the same problem and rallying together to deal with the problem rather than polarizing things even further. Everyone else in the world wants to laugh at our incompetence, but our health effects them as well so the laughing is a bit more stifled than it would be otherwise.
Globalism happens when transportation gets better. Staying as the good ole 1800s America protected by a sea gets tricky when we have airplanes that'll get us to Europe in 6 hours. If the global dictator's plan was to breed a country stupid enough to kill itself in order to stay out of their clutches, they're doing a fantastic job. We're tanking our own economy and killing our own people faster than they possibly could, so congratulations! We don't have time to play around with the spooky possibilities when we have an immediate threat. I actually agree with a lot of your thoughts at least to a degree in a regular situation, but its not the time to figure out what to have for dinner when you're inside of a burning building.
The no one is being forced to come to work thing is an absolute joke, you know just as well as I do the power employers hold over their employees. Look at the meat processing plants where they were told to come in sick otherwise they'd risk losing their jobs. We like to say idealistic things about how everyone has free will and slavery is illegal, but wage/debt slavery is a very real concept thats absolutely cemented as part of human nature. Why did we ever allow ourselves to be serfs, why did we ever allow ourselves to be slaves, I certainly would never have been a slave, yet these things keep repeating. As soon as the government says we're ready to open up, whether thats ill advised or not, every company where the decisionmaking body isn't right on the front line with the minimum wage slaves will be opening up. In states that open too soon, unemployment benefits dry up for those that know that they should not return back to work. Just a reminder, unemployment is something they take out of your paycheck and hold onto, it is your money, its not the government giving you a handout. I'm not sure why you think I'm comfortable, I pretty explicitly said that I was not, and my situation isn't all that great, but it beats being dead! Again, I repeat, going against "the plan" makes things worse. We've all got a shitty situation and we can deal with it, or we can make it worse.
I'm actually pretty glad you brought up risk analysis. In New York right now, Corona virus is on track to kill more people than every single cause of death.
in 2017 155,000 people died in New York of all causes. Old age, heart disease, cancer, etc. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2017/#mort
in 2016 154,000 people died in New York of all causes. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2016/table31a.htm
in 2015 154,000 people as well https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2015/table31a.htm
Yeah yeah I know the risk isn't the same for population dense areas versus rural Montana, but you'll see similar results for all of the states that have been hit hard, and again we're just at the beginning of this.
I'm floored by your statement about, staying at home and collecting checks. I'd rather earn 10x more money working and not have to worry about how I'll be able to square the debts I'm incurring now. What I do agree with is simple math and risk analysis, insurance companies have been doing it successfully forever, so I'm fairly confident that the US government has the ability to weigh the risks. Follow me here cameraman, we reopen everything back up, and the statisticians predict that every 1 in X people will end up hospitalized as the result, we estimate how many people it'll spread to from them and their risk of hospitalization, we then figure out how many people total will likely end up hospitalized/dead. Add in the effect of people missing 2-3 weeks of work home sick, etc. We tally up all of the bills versus all of the economic benefit of them going back to work, and if we tally it all up and its negative, they tell us to stay home or we'll make things worse. We've got a baseline of lives lost, short term/long term economic damage. Measures are in place to minimize all of that. Losing a job for 2 months due to a natural disaster sucks, losing it for 40 years because it kills the person working there is worse.
If I was making $10/hr checking tickets at the movie theater, I'd like to say I'd be in a position to weigh the chances of me incurring $140k worth of medical debt versus the value of my paycheck, but a rumbling stomach makes that decision for you sometimes. Or, we can listen to the medical professionals that are collaborating with the government and their statisticians to follow a responsible reopening plan that minimizes economic impact and fatalities. Or we can throw temper tantrums and starve and infect more people than the absolute minimum.
I would say your naivety is cute, but I know you are smarter than some of the others here, and you are deliberately leaving things out to make an argument to what you feel has more importance. My point about every other country in the world was to say that its ridiculous to think that this is an internal political game we're playing when nearly every other country in the world is dealing with the same problem and rallying together to deal with the problem rather than polarizing things even further. Everyone else in the world wants to laugh at our incompetence, but our health effects them as well so the laughing is a bit more stifled than it would be otherwise.
Globalism happens when transportation gets better. Staying as the good ole 1800s America protected by a sea gets tricky when we have airplanes that'll get us to Europe in 6 hours. If the global dictator's plan was to breed a country stupid enough to kill itself in order to stay out of their clutches, they're doing a fantastic job. We're tanking our own economy and killing our own people faster than they possibly could, so congratulations! We don't have time to play around with the spooky possibilities when we have an immediate threat. I actually agree with a lot of your thoughts at least to a degree in a regular situation, but its not the time to figure out what to have for dinner when you're inside of a burning building.
The no one is being forced to come to work thing is an absolute joke, you know just as well as I do the power employers hold over their employees. Look at the meat processing plants where they were told to come in sick otherwise they'd risk losing their jobs. We like to say idealistic things about how everyone has free will and slavery is illegal, but wage/debt slavery is a very real concept thats absolutely cemented as part of human nature. Why did we ever allow ourselves to be serfs, why did we ever allow ourselves to be slaves, I certainly would never have been a slave, yet these things keep repeating. As soon as the government says we're ready to open up, whether thats ill advised or not, every company where the decisionmaking body isn't right on the front line with the minimum wage slaves will be opening up. In states that open too soon, unemployment benefits dry up for those that know that they should not return back to work. Just a reminder, unemployment is something they take out of your paycheck and hold onto, it is your money, its not the government giving you a handout. I'm not sure why you think I'm comfortable, I pretty explicitly said that I was not, and my situation isn't all that great, but it beats being dead! Again, I repeat, going against "the plan" makes things worse. We've all got a shitty situation and we can deal with it, or we can make it worse.
I'm actually pretty glad you brought up risk analysis. In New York right now, Corona virus is on track to kill more people than every single cause of death.
in 2017 155,000 people died in New York of all causes. Old age, heart disease, cancer, etc. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2017/#mort
in 2016 154,000 people died in New York of all causes. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2016/table31a.htm
in 2015 154,000 people as well https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2015/table31a.htm
Yeah yeah I know the risk isn't the same for population dense areas versus rural Montana, but you'll see similar results for all of the states that have been hit hard, and again we're just at the beginning of this.
I'm floored by your statement about, staying at home and collecting checks. I'd rather earn 10x more money working and not have to worry about how I'll be able to square the debts I'm incurring now. What I do agree with is simple math and risk analysis, insurance companies have been doing it successfully forever, so I'm fairly confident that the US government has the ability to weigh the risks. Follow me here cameraman, we reopen everything back up, and the statisticians predict that every 1 in X people will end up hospitalized as the result, we estimate how many people it'll spread to from them and their risk of hospitalization, we then figure out how many people total will likely end up hospitalized/dead. Add in the effect of people missing 2-3 weeks of work home sick, etc. We tally up all of the bills versus all of the economic benefit of them going back to work, and if we tally it all up and its negative, they tell us to stay home or we'll make things worse. We've got a baseline of lives lost, short term/long term economic damage. Measures are in place to minimize all of that. Losing a job for 2 months due to a natural disaster sucks, losing it for 40 years because it kills the person working there is worse.
If I was making $10/hr checking tickets at the movie theater, I'd like to say I'd be in a position to weigh the chances of me incurring $140k worth of medical debt versus the value of my paycheck, but a rumbling stomach makes that decision for you sometimes. Or, we can listen to the medical professionals that are collaborating with the government and their statisticians to follow a responsible reopening plan that minimizes economic impact and fatalities. Or we can throw temper tantrums and starve and infect more people than the absolute minimum.
No need to attack or defend him! [proceeds to attack him] This is why I have no respect for you in spite of being intelligent, you talk out of both sides of your face. I am not leaving anything out, you are 100% projecting. I am specifically pointing out the facts you wish to ignore. Me pointing out the things you would rather gloss over is not leaving anything out, it is me saying your premise does not outweigh what I am presenting. That is called presenting an argument.
It is both an internal and an international game. The USA is still the most powerful nation in the world, and as a result international forces have a stake in what happens here. To pretend this is not the case is asinine. The world wants to laugh at us because it is fucking trendy, and it gives them the opportunity to ignore and deflect from their own domestic issues. The rest of the world doesn't get to decide which rights and freedoms we have, sorry.
I like your false choice fallacy here insinuating that resisting globalism is equivalent to going back to the 1800's. Yes, we are tanking our own economy. That was exactly my premise, thanks for reinforcing it. Fear and panic is being used to con people like you into supporting this suicidal economic policy. You keep talking about all kinds of hypothetical situations of what could occur, I am telling you what IS occurring, right now, and what will continue to occur even if this policy is reversed immediately. It is not theoretical, it is factual. These lock downs are destroying our economy and that will result in MILLIONS of lost lives, homelessness, and poverty which hasn't been seen in generations.
No, no one is forced to go to work. They still have a choice. Just because it is a hard choice doesn't make it force. A state mandate however is literally force, as in if you disobey it men with guns come and force you comply. This isn't idealism, this is a fact. No, actually it isn't my money or anyone's money. It is created out of thin air, and is debt on the future. Not only is this irresponsible to future generations, that has been the case for generations, it is so over the top it is driving us to hyperinflation at warp speed. It is destroying any of what was left of price signalling and making our heavily inflated currency create totally irrational markets. Irrational markets means that the system fails. The system failing means the supply chain, which is a very complex system breaks down. That means the products we need to survive simply are not being produced. I could sleep on a bed of $100 bills, it means nothing if there is no food to buy. What you don't get is what you are advocating for IS making it worse, and your irrational fear is blinding you to that.
Interesting... since you brought up the numbers (which again ignore the bell curve but lets leave that aside for a moment). Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls57z3RXcOc
Yes, those precious stats you have so much confidence in are flawed. That is right. Some one who was a car accident, but tested positive for COVID, then later died of the trauma injuries is counted as a COVID death. Dying of cancer and in hospice, but test positive for COVID? Another COVID death. Even if your stats were 100% accurate, the impact that this will have on the economy DWARFS those death rates. It is impossible to make accurate projections with flawed base statistics.
You are ignoring the resulting poverty, suicides, homelessness, and deaths from people not being able to scheduled regular medical treatments, not because of resources being maxed out, but as a matter of policy. You keep making appeals to authority that they already accounted for all of this, but it simply doesn't wash even under moderate scrutiny.
Good for you, such a noble soul you are. Are you really telling me you think most people would prefer to work rather than sit home and earn MORE than they were paid to work? Now you are just being disingenuous. This is not just about the individual people suffering economic hardship, this is about the totality of the organs of the economy dying, and this is not something you just easily replace. This is the economic equivalent of organ failure. We depend on those organs to survive. Command economies kill those organs faster than anything.
"We are from the government, we are here to help!"
"Do not run, we are your friends!"
"...listen to the medical professionals that are collaborating with the government and their statisticians to follow a responsible reopening plan that minimizes economic impact and fatalities."
Famous last words.
You are a fucking fool if you believe this. Again, you appeal to authority and then proceed to project upon me the results your own favored policy will cause. I don't care how many experts you have. The economy can not be managed this way. If you know anything about economics you know the repeating theme of it throughout history is that it is too complicated to be effectively centrally managed, and that is exactly what you are advocating for. There is a difference between BELIEVING they accounted for all the variables, and actually accounting for all the variables. What you have here is a religion based on your faith in authority, not a factually based premise no matter how much you kick and scream about it.
More related:
"UV Light Flu Treatment"
https://youtu.be/ugRLoikr_-4
"Twitter Suspends Account Of Biotech Company Testing UV Light To Treat Coronavirus"
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/twitter-suspends-account-biotech-company-testing-uv-light-treat-coronavirus
"Maryland Joins Push To End Lockdowns"
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/maryland-joins-push-end-lockdowns-china-claims-coronavirus-has-been-eradicated-wuhan
"Coronavirus: France bans online sales of nicotine products"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52415793
"American Farms Cull Millions Of Chickens Amid Virus-Related Staff Shortages At Processing Plants"
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/farms-across-delmarva-cull-millions-chickens-amid-virus-related-staff-shortages-processing
"At Least 10 Meatpacking Plants Close In Weeks Across America Stoking Food Shortage Fears"
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/tyson-close-its-largest-pork-plant-over-coronavirus-fears
"Dr. Birx Slams "Slicey & Dicey" Mainstream Media For Fixation On Trump's 'Sunlight' Comments"
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/dr-birx-slams-slicey-dicey-cnn-media-fixation-trumps-sunlight-comments
"The COVID-19 Crisis Is Driving the EU to the Brink"
https://mises.org/wire/covid-19-crisis-driving-eu-brink
"Ending the Lockdowns Isn't about Saving Money. It's about Saving Lives. "
https://mises.org/wire/ending-lockdowns-isnt-about-saving-money-its-about-saving-lives
"How Shutdowns Will Keep Killing the Economy, Even When They're Over"
https://mises.org/wire/how-shutdowns-will-keep-killing-economy-even-when-theyre-over
Jump to: