That picture...
...too true. I wish I had thought of that picture *I have it saved somewhere in my JPGs folder* and posted it earlier.
Topic: Corporal Punishment (Re: Our response to Dmytri Kleiner's misunderstanding of money - page 9. (Read 24725 times)
December 10, 2012, 03:47:49 AM
That picture...
...too true. I wish I had thought of that picture *I have it saved somewhere in my JPGs folder* and posted it earlier.
December 10, 2012, 02:15:09 AM
December 09, 2012, 09:47:36 PM
Oh, MoonShadow... you were the last person I expected to use this one with...
Your logical fallacy is...
Your logical fallacy is...
Nonsene. I don't put any words into your mouth. I din't claim that you would do something that you didn't state. You said it, should I quote you?
Here, let me help: This is the post in which I first stated that I would intervene if I saw you beating your child, just as I would intervene if I saw a mugging or assault...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333595
And here is the reply in which you immediately jumped to the conclusion that I would be snatching your child from you...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333687
The response to that one, in which I explicitly deny that claim...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333819
And your response to my response, in which you stated you would reply with deadly force...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333845
(Note, the quotes are messed up, so that your response comes under the heading "Quote" and my statement to which you are responding comes under the heading "Quote from MoonShadow," because you cut out a reply of your own - specifically, the one from the second link, above - and incorrectly judged the number of tags to remove.)
I'll accept apology in the form of a public statement, and/or monetary compensation.
I'll review this at a later date.
You'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath.
December 09, 2012, 07:15:20 PM
Oh, MoonShadow... you were the last person I expected to use this one with...
Your logical fallacy is...
Your logical fallacy is...
Nonsene. I don't put any words into your mouth. I din't claim that you would do something that you didn't state. You said it, should I quote you?
Here, let me help: This is the post in which I first stated that I would intervene if I saw you beating your child, just as I would intervene if I saw a mugging or assault...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333595
And here is the reply in which you immediately jumped to the conclusion that I would be snatching your child from you...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333687
The response to that one, in which I explicitly deny that claim...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333819
And your response to my response, in which you stated you would reply with deadly force...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333845
(Note, the quotes are messed up, so that your response comes under the heading "Quote" and my statement to which you are responding comes under the heading "Quote from MoonShadow," because you cut out a reply of your own - specifically, the one from the second link, above - and incorrectly judged the number of tags to remove.)
I'll accept apology in the form of a public statement, and/or monetary compensation.
I'll review this at a later date.
December 09, 2012, 07:14:49 PM
You keep switching from this argument to a "practical" argument "corporeal punishment is harmful" and back. It's the practical argument for which you are false that such things are black and white. Such risks of harm run along a continuum, for which I am aware.
Your "corporal punishment is abuse" argument is invalid simply because you don't get to decide that question. Again I do, not you. Period.
I have to agree with MoonShadow here. One funny thing about libertarians is that they often start from the proposition that everyone is free to do as they like and then end with the conclusion that everyone must behave in exactly the same way.
Though I think MoonShadow is an idiot and making bad decisions about how to raise his children, I don't think the children should take them away from him or that any other kind of intervention should take place. Children should only be removed if the corporal punishment MoonShadow's children suffer is sufficiently bad that they would be better off in foster homes. Evidence suggests that abuse has to be very severe before children are better off being separated from their parents.
MoonShadow is nowhere near as stupid as Myrkul.
My home is a foster home. I agreed, by contract and in advance, to monthly visits by social workers. My methods are not considered abuse by the state social structure. Even so, I additionally agreed to not use corporal punishment of any form on the two foster boys, because they were removed from a physically abusive home. The father avoided prison by surrendering his parental rights. I abide by my agreements.
December 08, 2012, 10:41:28 PM
MoonBeaterOfChildren doesn't accept "your definitions" (translation: the normal meanings of the words you're using) because your definitions trivially prove him malevolent. Sorta like the famous sociopath who said "well, no, I've never done anything violent, I killed a guy once, but nothing violent".
You, myrkul, clearly are an evil dictionarynoid oppressing Mr. Beating Children Is Not Violent Because I SAY SO, what with you bringing up your Fallacious Fascist Dictionary Authorities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLODu02R_gA&feature=youtu.be&t=17m13s
Sociopathy at play, my man, sociopathy at play.
You, myrkul, clearly are an evil dictionarynoid oppressing Mr. Beating Children Is Not Violent Because I SAY SO, what with you bringing up your Fallacious Fascist Dictionary Authorities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLODu02R_gA&feature=youtu.be&t=17m13s
Sociopathy at play, my man, sociopathy at play.
December 08, 2012, 10:33:08 PM
Oh, MoonShadow... you were the last person I expected to use this one with...
Your logical fallacy is...
Your logical fallacy is...
Nonsene. I don't put any words into your mouth. I din't claim that you would do something that you didn't state. You said it, should I quote you?
Here, let me help: This is the post in which I first stated that I would intervene if I saw you beating your child, just as I would intervene if I saw a mugging or assault...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333595
And here is the reply in which you immediately jumped to the conclusion that I would be snatching your child from you...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333687
The response to that one, in which I explicitly deny that claim...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333819
And your response to my response, in which you stated you would reply with deadly force...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1333845
(Note, the quotes are messed up, so that your response comes under the heading "Quote" and my statement to which you are responding comes under the heading "Quote from MoonShadow," because you cut out a reply of your own - specifically, the one from the second link, above - and incorrectly judged the number of tags to remove.)
I'll accept apology in the form of a public statement, and/or monetary compensation.
December 08, 2012, 10:01:51 PM
You keep switching from this argument to a "practical" argument "corporeal punishment is harmful" and back. It's the practical argument for which you are false that such things are black and white. Such risks of harm run along a continuum, for which I am aware.
Your "corporal punishment is abuse" argument is invalid simply because you don't get to decide that question. Again I do, not you. Period.
I have to agree with MoonShadow here. One funny thing about libertarians is that they often start from the proposition that everyone is free to do as they like and then end with the conclusion that everyone must behave in exactly the same way.
Though I think MoonShadow is an idiot and making bad decisions about how to raise his children, I don't think the children should take them away from him or that any other kind of intervention should take place. Children should only be removed if the corporal punishment MoonShadow's children suffer is sufficiently bad that they would be better off in foster homes. Evidence suggests that abuse has to be very severe before children are better off being separated from their parents.
MoonShadow is nowhere near as stupid as Myrkul.
December 08, 2012, 09:58:42 PM
Ha! That one almost works, except I wasn't using that anecdote as an argument, I was using as an example.
Your readiness to jump to that site to discredit your detractors is arguablely...
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy
Quote
I'm quite aware that I might fuck up in raising my kids...I worry about it every day. But I fail to see how treating them with the respect due a fellow human being could be the cause of that fuck up.
You fail to see many things, young man, than you are likely to revisit many times. One likely failure is your assumption that your daughters are likely to respect you back, or even agree with your political & moral perspectives. Then again, they might, and you are just as likely to forever view your parentals styles as the root cause, and it's just as likely as not to be so. You aslo presume that conditioning a toddler to associate dangerous activities with pain is necessarily "disrespect".
Granted, my children can end up screwed up in different ways. However, each of my children are treated as individuals, so their bad habits are addressesed individually. You do not have any means to address certain behaviors (should your daughters express such bad habits) because you have already excluded such options.
And you, by leaving those options on the table, have undermined the rest of your parenting strategy:Perhaps, perhaps not. You rally don't know the details of my parenting strategy, beyond the fact that I'm unwilling to exclude corporeal punishment from consideration. You have no idea how rear or common my use of same may be. You also don't care; again, the black and white fallacy.
and you are always presuming that, violent or not, said punishment isn't justifiable or authorized.
Yes, that's rather the point of the comic. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy.
And yet your are failing....
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
You keep switching from this argument to a "practical" argument "corporeal punishment is harmful" and back. It's the practical argument for which you are false that such things are black and white. Such risks of harm run along a continuum, for which I am aware.
Your "corporal punishment is abuse" argument is invalid simply because you don't get to decide that question. Again I do, not you. Period.
If parents get to decide what is and what is not abuse, would it be OK if I decided that forcibly having sex with my children were not abuse? Would that make it so?I think not.
if you were to touch a child that was not your's in a public space, with the obvious intent of removing said child from their parents (regardless of what cause you may have) you have just initiated the cycle of violence.
Oh, MoonShadow... you were the last person I expected to use this one with...Your logical fallacy is...
Nonsene. I don't put any words into your mouth. I din't claim that you would do something that you didn't state. You said it, should I quote you?
Quote
I never said I would take your kid. I never even said I would lay a hand on them. I said I would tell you to stop. To which, I might add, you stated that you would reply with deadly force...
Okay, we're going to have to dive back into the thread history. But not today. Time for bed.
December 08, 2012, 09:38:36 PM
Quote
Quote
as the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against a person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment or deprivation.
Where we differ, I think, is in the portion I have underlined. You claim that your intentional use of force, or the threat of same, will not cause psychological harm or maldevelopment. I contend that it does, and that the evidence of that fact is all around you.No, our disagreement is more basic than that. I do contest the validity of your perceptions, but that is actually beside the point. My poin is 'who gets to decide'? The answer is, I do and you do not. I do, singularly; and you do not, even collectively. Could I be wrong and end up screwing up my kids' lives? That remains a possibility for which I am ever aware. The same rings true for you, however; which does ot seem to be something for which you are aware. You will be. I have met many young parents (and childless couples) who advocate for such a "zero corporeal punishment" style of parenting. However, I have met very few older parents who stuck to that method. Among those who did; one has two boys in prison, one has one child who is a drug addict, one has a daughter who was pregnent at 15, and one has an adult son that never moved out. Obviously, these same parents also had many other children who were not so screwed up, but I'd wager that some non-neglible percentagle of their grandchildren will either 1) end up screwed up or 2) be raised without such a zero-corporel punishment theories.
Ha! That one almost works, except I wasn't using that anecdote as an argument, I was using as an example.
Your readiness to jump to that site to discredit your detractors is arguablely...
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy
Granted, my children can end up screwed up in different ways. However, each of my children are treated as individuals, so their bad habits are addressesed individually. You do not have any means to address certain behaviors (should your daughters express such bad habits) because you have already excluded such options.
And you, by leaving those options on the table, have undermined the rest of your parenting strategy:Perhaps, perhaps not. You rally don't know the details of my parenting strategy, beyond the fact that I'm unwilling to exclude corporeal punishment from consideration. You have no idea how rear or common my use of same may be. You also don't care; again, the black and white fallacy.
and you are always presuming that, violent or not, said punishment isn't justifiable or authorized.
Yes, that's rather the point of the comic. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy.
And yet your are failing....
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
You keep switching from this argument to a "practical" argument "corporeal punishment is harmful" and back. It's the practical argument for which you are false that such things are black and white. Such risks of harm run along a continuum, for which I am aware.
Your "corporal punishment is abuse" argument is invalid simply because you don't get to decide that question. Again I do, not you. Period.
if you were to touch a child that was not your's in a public space, with the obvious intent of removing said child from their parents (regardless of what cause you may have) you have just initiated the cycle of violence.
Oh, MoonShadow... you were the last person I expected to use this one with...Your logical fallacy is...
Nonsene. I don't put any words into your mouth. I din't claim that you would do something that you didn't state. You said it, should I quote you?
Quote
I never said I would take your kid. I never even said I would lay a hand on them. I said I would tell you to stop. To which, I might add, you stated that you would reply with deadly force...
Okay, we're going to have to dive back into the thread history. But not today. Time for bed.
