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Topic: Corporal Punishment (Re: Our response to Dmytri Kleiner's misunderstanding of money - page 10. (Read 24721 times)

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
I had a feeling that you would gravitate to certain portions of that article.  I won't bother doing the same to you, although I easily could. 

Feel free. I doubt you could find anything so telling against my strategy as I found against yours. After all, I will be consistent in applying any restrictions, treat my children as people, with their own motivations, and encourage independence, to a much greater degree, in fact, than yourself.

In short, Bring it.

You're an inexperienced fool.  I can't believe this thread is still happening.
There are myriad ways to "encourage independence" and many of them are found through hands-on experience / trial-and-error, which you obviously have none of.
Armchair childrearing is probably the worst branch of armchair philosophy.
Have lots of kids and have "fun", jackass.

Crypt_Current attacks other people because he hates the ideas they introduce.  He has no arguments and nothing constructive to say -- only insults.  I think we know what kind of parenting produces a damaged individual like that.  I bet his parents or other authority figures dealt with his "troublesome thoughts" by shaming and insulting him.

That's enough of this crap, guys.  Keep it civil, even when you don't desrve it.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
Alternately, you'll get your due when the world changes and starts treating all  parents who didn't renounce the use of force against children when they had the chance as social pariahs, to live out their twilight years isolated and alone.

It's possible you could be safe though. It might not happen this generation.

Maybe.

Don't worry -- he'll get lots of uncomfortable Thanksgivings with the kids he abused.  I know what he won't get: a meaningful and deep relationship with the victims of his abuse.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I had a feeling that you would gravitate to certain portions of that article.  I won't bother doing the same to you, although I easily could. 

Feel free. I doubt you could find anything so telling against my strategy as I found against yours. After all, I will be consistent in applying any restrictions, treat my children as people, with their own motivations, and encourage independence, to a much greater degree, in fact, than yourself.

In short, Bring it.

You're an inexperienced fool.  I can't believe this thread is still happening.
There are myriad ways to "encourage independence" and many of them are found through hands-on experience / trial-and-error, which you obviously have none of.
Armchair childrearing is probably the worst branch of armchair philosophy.
Have lots of kids and have "fun", jackass.

Crypt_Current attacks other people because he hates the ideas they introduce.  He has no arguments and nothing constructive to say -- only insults.  I think we know what kind of parenting produces a damaged individual like that.  I bet his parents or other authority figures dealt with his "troublesome thoughts" by shaming and insulting him.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
This psychologist debunks the myth of human nature:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPKo7XbUZ-8

The human nature is not a myth. Your statement is false. The Youtube video is rather irrelevant.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
This psychologist debunks the myth of human nature:

Parenting for a Peaceful World - A Conversation with Robin Grille

Quote
Robin Grille is a father, a psychologist in private practice with twenty years' experience, and a parenting educator. His articles on parenting and child development have been widely published in Australia and overseas. Robin's first book: 'Parenting for a Peaceful World' (2005) has received international acclaim and led to speaking engagements around Australia, USA and New Zealand. 'Heart to Heart Parenting' (ABC Books) is Robin's second book.

A passionate speaker and social change activist, Robin's extensive research has led him to feel that improved attention to babies' and children's emotional needs is the most powerful way to move societies toward sustainability and peace.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Shame on everything; regret nothing.
When I deal with kids I don't worry about what political philosophy I have.  Some kids need kindness, others need independence, and others just need a strong role model.  There is no one correct way.  It is different for each kid and the mood that they are in at the moment.

Exactly.  And some kids are born masochists.  XD

hey man i don't make up these cosmic rules.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
When I deal with kids I don't worry about what political philosophy I have.  Some kids need kindness, others need independence, and others just need a strong role model.  There is no one correct way.  It is different for each kid and the mood that they are in at the moment.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Shame on everything; regret nothing.
Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
Alternately, you'll get your due when the world changes and starts treating all  parents who didn't renounce the use of force against children when they had the chance as social pariahs, to live out their twilight years isolated and alone.
As a third alternative, I could set up some sort of reminder to tell me to let MoonShadow know how they turned out. But a dozen years seems rather long to wait just for a "Ha! Told you so!"

If they're that young, yeah dude that's as good as not having any.
You'll learn, probably the hard way.  Are you even taking astrology or any sort of personality tests at the very least into consideration??

Dude, either put the pipe down, or stop posting. It will save on regrets in the morning.

No regrets.  Not even a pipe this time.  So... No?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Learn to emulate the transient characteristics of 'the rest of us' or be outed as an evil element / sociopath.

This has been tried before. See the Cultural Revolution.
Actually it's more a matter of just teaching their prey the skill of recognizing a sociopath's intellectual pollution for what it is.

Using the power of language to make a peaceful exercise of voluntary association appear equal to murder is a great example. Thanks for the demonstration.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
I can see how you'd interpret it that way, if you are a sociopath.

For the rest of us who do have a conscience it's a a very predictable way to respond to evil.

Ah, anarchy:

Learn to emulate the transient characteristics of 'the rest of us' or be outed as an evil element / sociopath.

This has been tried before. See the Cultural Revolution.

That makes me think. Your principles are strikingly similar to Mao's ideas of perpetual revolution. The principle is that any petty tyrant should be overthrown by voluntary community movements. Therefore there can be no petty tyrants. Usually this was non-violent and just involved public humiliation. Sometimes excesses occurred.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
Alternately, you'll get your due when the world changes and starts treating all  parents who didn't renounce the use of force against children when they had the chance as social pariahs, to live out their twilight years isolated and alone.
As a third alternative, I could set up some sort of reminder to tell me to let MoonShadow know how they turned out. But a dozen years seems rather long to wait just for a "Ha! Told you so!"

If they're that young, yeah dude that's as good as not having any.
You'll learn, probably the hard way.  Are you even taking astrology or any sort of personality tests at the very least into consideration??

Dude, either put the pipe down, or stop posting. It will save on regrets in the morning.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Shame on everything; regret nothing.
Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
Alternately, you'll get your due when the world changes and starts treating all  parents who didn't renounce the use of force against children when they had the chance as social pariahs, to live out their twilight years isolated and alone.
As a third alternative, I could set up some sort of reminder to tell me to let MoonShadow know how they turned out. But a dozen years seems rather long to wait just for a "Ha! Told you so!"

If they're that young, yeah dude that's as good as not having any.
You'll learn, probably the hard way.  Are you even taking astrology or any sort of personality tests at the very least into consideration??
If not, you are going to end up with extremely unpredictable outcomes, guaranteed.
Human creatures are the most technologically complex machines in existench.  No matter how hard you try (control -- what you deplore?!?) you will end up with the opposite of what you expected, unless you successfully trick yourself.
Magick -- the Art and Science of causing Change to occur in accordance with Will
Take note.  What you see as shades of grey now will bloom into a bright spectrum of a rainbow.
Infrablack is still a color even if not perceived by any organism known.
Good luck and godspeed, sir.
Lol christianity,... lol islam, judaism...
Rationality...
IO CHORONZON.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
What you propose is not to remove the law, but to make the law unpredictable. i.e. replace moderate repression with repression of the most extreme kind.
I can see how you'd interpret it that way, if you are a sociopath.

For the rest of us who do have a conscience it's a a very predictable way to respond to evil.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
Alternately, you'll get your due when the world changes and starts treating all  parents who didn't renounce the use of force against children when they had the chance as social pariahs, to live out their twilight years isolated and alone.

It's possible you could be safe though. It might not happen this generation.

Maybe.

Ah, libertarianism shows its true colors. What you propose is not to remove the law, but to make the law unpredictable. i.e. replace moderate repression with repression of the most extreme kind.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
What makes religious justifications for child abuse so obscene is not that the proponents hold up as their highest moral ideal the behaviour of bronze age barbarians, not the complete blindness to extensive evidence proving the harm their actions cause, and not even the deplorable lack of empathy with their own children that should clue them in to the fact that something's wrong.

What makes religious justifications for child abuse so obscene is that people can enter into important discussions about the care, nurturing and education of young human beings, bring up fairy tales about their imaginary friends, and expect to be taken seriously.

That is beyond depraved.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
 Again, your opinion as to what is retalitory force is irrelevant.  It's my opinion that matters for my own children.
It's not my opinion, it's the definition of the act. Either you're punishing, in which case it's in retaliation for the act, or you're attempting to condition the child, in which case it's preemptive, and thus initiatory. Opinion doesn't enter into it.

Perhaps, but only I have such authority of my kids.  You don't.
I'm not claiming authority over your children. I don't need such authority over them to protect them from abuse.

You do not have the right to impose your own interpretation of the NAP on my household, nor any other moral code.
I see. You're one of those types that sees the wife as property, too? Should I not step in if I see you beating her?

Parents naturally have the responsibility to care for a child and should assume authority out of love for the child. No other external “authority” has this motivation, although they will all claim to possess it.
I never argued that you don't mean well. I know you do. But you know that saying about the road to hell...

You be strong, and remember you said this once rebellion touches your household.  You really have no idea what you are in for.
Slaves rebel. I won't be raising slaves, but independent people. Since I won't be trying to dominate them, what will they rebel against?

One does not necessarily need to violate the NAP in order to cause harm, especially to kids. (This one applies equally well to you, Myrkul, as it does I)
Indeed, though how my treating a child as a person and not an object could bring them harm, I'm not certain. I'm well aware of the boundaries that I must set for the children, and when those boundaries should be removed.

Again, be strong.  I can respect your determination, if not your conclusion, and a sudden change in parental styles would do far more lasting harm than either of our perspectives.  But I think that you will come to regret taking such a moral stand.
I doubt I will, but you're right, a sudden change would ruin that "consistency" thing.

Quote
I'll close with one more quote from the article that I think really sums up our conversation:
Quote
Striking the root of external authority just may mean turning the axe on yourself and eliminating some behaviors that are considered perfectly normal in this society and perfectly natural for you, because that is what you learned as a child. Your first reaction perhaps will be to take offense. But whenever an automatic and strong emotional response kicks in, that is usually a red flag that there is something that doesn’t want to be critically examined. That in itself should be motivation for a closer examination.
Again, be careful what you wish for, Myrkul.  If there is a God, you will be judged not only on what you have done, but also on what you did not do; and what you believed about those actions yourself.
As will you.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
It's interesting that many of these passages are the very ones I considered pointing out to you...

A child must see that temporary parental authority is natural and useful and very different from all other forms of non-parental “authority.”
Indeed, it's natural because until the child can wipe it's own ass, you have the authority and responsibility to do that. And it's temporary because once the child can wipe it's own ass, you no longer have that authority. This goes for all other aspects of the child's life, as well. as soon as the child can take care of a particular task on it's own, it's your duty to get the fuck out of the way.
Again, I don't contest this.  I stated from the beginning that my authority dies once my children reach the age of reason.  Neither my 10 year old son, nor my 12 year old daughter, have experienced any form of corporal punishment in several years.  It's simply not necessary, as they can be reasoned with.  My tots don't get any corporal punishment (as defined by the state, they do get time-outs and corner time) because they are surviors of real abuse and are now officially adopted; but that is a decision based on their particular background, not related to any argument that you can present.  And the last child doesn't get punished because she is 1) another foster child and therefore exempt due to contract and 2) she's only 6 months old and quite incapable of any activity that would call for such intervention anyway.  So, in practice, my children are not spanked; but not because I don't consider it a useful parental tool, and not because you claim a say in how I raise my kids.

also at times to restrict, even if force may be required to maintain the child's safety.
How did I know you'd use this part? You're just as predictable as I, MoonShadow. Force is sometime necessary to maintain a child's safety, such as the previously discussed example of snatching the child out of the street, or slapping their hand away from the stove. That is defensive force. Punishing the child because they did not do as told, however, is treating the child as an object, and is, at best, retaliatory force.


Well, DUH!  Of course I'm going to use this part, after you asked me to "bring it on".  Again, your opinion as to what is retalitory force is irrelevant.  It's my opinion that matters for my own children.

“My house, my rules.” Parents have power and power corrupts, so be mindful of that fact.
You didn't extend the bold on that far enough, I've remedied that. Be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking your authority absolute. You only have authority over what the child can not do for themselves.

Perhaps, but only I have such authority of my kids.  You don't.

I’m not saying that every facet of domination can be eliminated. The bottom line is the parent does indeed have authority
Yes, as I said, over those things which the child cannot do for themselves, either legally, such as in the case of contracts, or physically, such as in the case of ass-wiping.

And reasoning, such as safety training and self-preservation.  Once they can reason well enough, they don't need my help here anymore.
But exceptions are by no means rules, and that’s the crucial distinction that needs to be drawn in the child’s mind.
I suppose you're going to use this to try and weasel out of responsibility for striking your child in frustration?

I'm not, but I think that you have a shock coming.
A strict command and obey structure utilizing rewards and punishments “works” for training pets when considered from the trainer’s point of view, but this may not be an optimal method for instilling independence into a developing human being. (I've already acknowledged that corporeal punishment isn't ideal, and may not even be most effective; I only argue that I, not you, are the final arbitor of such)
I'm not arguing efficiency, effectiveness, or any of that. I'm arguing morality. I am stating that you are treating the child not a a person, but as an animal or object, when you use corporal punishment. You are violating the NAP by using coercion to get your way.

That is your opinion, and you have a right to it.  In your own home.

You do not have the right to impose your own interpretation of the NAP on my household, nor any other moral code.

Parents naturally have the responsibility to care for a child and should assume authority out of love for the child. No other external “authority” has this motivation, although they will all claim to possess it.
I never argued that you don't mean well. I know you do. But you know that saying about the road to hell...

You be strong, and remember you said this once rebellion touches your household.  You really have no idea what you are in for.
One does not necessarily need to violate the NAP in order to cause harm, especially to kids. (This one applies equally well to you, Myrkul, as it does I)
Indeed, though how my treating a child as a person and not an object could bring them harm, I'm not certain. I'm well aware of the boundaries that I must set for the children, and when those boundaries should be removed.


Again, be strong.  I can respect your determination, if not your conclusion, and a sudden change in parental styles would do far more lasting harm than either of our perspectives.  But I think that you will come to regret taking such a moral stand.

Quote

I'll close with one more quote from the article that I think really sums up our conversation:
Quote
Striking the root of external authority just may mean turning the axe on yourself and eliminating some behaviors that are considered perfectly normal in this society and perfectly natural for you, because that is what you learned as a child. Your first reaction perhaps will be to take offense. But whenever an automatic and strong emotional response kicks in, that is usually a red flag that there is something that doesn’t want to be critically examined. That in itself should be motivation for a closer examination.

Again, be careful what you wish for, Myrkul.  If there is a God, you will be judged not only on what you have done, but also on what you did not do; and what you believed about those actions yourself.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
Alternately, you'll get your due when the world changes and starts treating all  parents who didn't renounce the use of force against children when they had the chance as social pariahs, to live out their twilight years isolated and alone.
As a third alternative, I could set up some sort of reminder to tell me to let MoonShadow know how they turned out. But a dozen years seems rather long to wait just for a "Ha! Told you so!"
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
Alternately, you'll get your due when the world changes and starts treating all  parents who didn't renounce the use of force against children when they had the chance as social pariahs, to live out their twilight years isolated and alone.

It's possible you could be safe though. It might not happen this generation.

Maybe.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
I had a feeling that you would gravitate to certain portions of that article.  I won't bother doing the same to you, although I easily could. 

Feel free. I doubt you could find anything so telling against my strategy as I found against yours. After all, I will be consistent in applying any restrictions, treat my children as people, with their own motivations, and encourage independence, to a much greater degree, in fact, than yourself.

In short, Bring it.

You're an inexperienced fool.  I can't believe this thread is still happening.
There are myriad ways to "encourage independence" and many of them are found through hands-on experience / trial-and-error, which you obviously have none of.
Armchair childrearing is probably the worst branch of armchair philosophy.
Have lots of kids and have "fun", jackass.

Don't worry, he's got two very young daughters.  He'll get his due in another 12 years or so.
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