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Topic: Counting Cards -- a Dirty Cheat or a Legit Skill? (Read 607 times)

legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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Also in your example, your friends got killed, so where's the law there? people from casino sometimes put the law in their hands

That makes an interesting case for looking into it deeper

If we are talking about the US casinos, many seem to be run by Native Americans in reservations. And to my knowledge, these Indian tribes have a certain amount of sovereignty, so their reservation can be considered an enclave, i.e. an independent country surrounded by foreign territory. In practical terms, when you turn up there, whatever the reason, you are no longer protected by the federal law. In the end, it may turn out a total no-law zone, and thus you are on your own there (Nevada has its own gambling laws as well)
sr. member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 261
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If I can learn that skill I would love to practice that, but I'm the kind that is so preoccupied with so many things in mind, I don't think it's possible for average guy like me, and I consider it a rare skill, to be able to remember all the cards that are passing, I also consider this a threat to gambling casinos, that is why they do not allow such player to play.

   There are some exercises for training your brain to memorize things faster, and to learn more! You can
find some online stuff about it, free books and videos about people who are practice that! Anyone can
try that, but we saw in the movies that casinos don't like card counters! Playing BJ online is different I think,
who can guarantee that you play with only one deck?!
   Counting cards is a skill, skill that can earn you some money, and probably a skill that annoy casino stuff!
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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The reason that the casinos are considering counting card as an illegal move is because the players have a higher chance of winning, and a player winning is something that the casino hates, they loss profits when there are constant increase in winners

This logic is not without flaws

Okay, some players who can count cards are taking from the house edge, we get it. But if we assume that card counting is a natural skill as long as you only use your brains for it, then any such skill should be considered as taking advantage on the house. In this manner of reasoning, a casino should only let in gamblers with low IQ's, at least as far as skill-based games are concerned (where Blackjack belongs to)

Imagine mathematicians storm the casino and play blackjack and poker and other card games, this will cause an imbalance in edge because people are frequently winning rather than losing. With the rise of online platform, the card counting is getting harder

I remember a story about some really smartass mathematician who was able to drain a casino dry by making right bets at the right time. He got thrown out in the end (more like denied entry but still)
legendary
Activity: 2450
Merit: 1047
If I can learn that skill I would love to practice that, but I'm the kind that is so preoccupied with so many things in mind, I don't think it's possible for average guy like me, and I consider it a rare skill, to be able to remember all the cards that are passing, I also consider this a threat to gambling casinos, that is why they do not allow such player to play.
sr. member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 278
For me, counting cards is not illegal, it's just skill on you but the casinos do not allow the counting of cards because it will give you a big chance of winning the game but actually I don't get them, why they don't allow that kind of ability. There is much gambling that actually uses skills to have an advantage in the game and they don't even ban those things because it just depends on the person if they are going to use it or if they have that kind of skill.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1145
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As a gambler, I don't consider it a cheat and I consider it a skill. Acquiring a good use to that skill would absolutely give you an advantage in playing a certain game If a casino considers it as a dirty cheat, They can easily prohibit it. A gambler will do anything to win on a casino on a safe side that the money you can win can't be forfeited because you violated a casino's rule.
hero member
Activity: 2912
Merit: 556
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~snip~

It's enough stupid, i think anyone here understand. As i said before, "counting" doesn't affect probability of game result. For example, we are playing Hold'em, and i have two Jacks on my hand. So, i'm counting the probability to get at least one more Jack for set. This will be 2/50 (i don't count cards at my hand, and poker deck has 52 cards). Will it affect a chance to get one more Jack? Obvious - no.

So where is cheating?

Yes, that is not cheating, but the casino has the rule, and they can say that it is illegal or legal. We cannot do anything if they say that it is a dirty cheat, but if the casino is okay with that, then that will be no problem for us.

~snip~

I expected something like that. Methinks it can be now rightfully declared as an official grey area for the purposes of this thread. With that said, the case which at this point might be of interest to us (given the amount of attention this dilemma has drawn) is when it is illegal in a casino to do the card counting. And most interesting is how they are implementing this ban in practice. For example, how are they distinguishing between legitimately raising the stakes and what they think of as illegally upping the ante?

Anyone have an idea?

I don't have any idea since the casino can do anything they want, including to say counting card is illegal.

I think that is not a dilemma because as long as we don't use any technology, and you don't use any trickery or signals or anything else to communicate with someone else, then I guess that will not break the rule. But we know that they can easily ban someone in their place without notice, and they can search for any reason why they ban that person.
legendary
Activity: 3486
Merit: 1055
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I just think if it is a skill and of course it is accompanied by luck, as we know gambling is a game of luck but when players have very good skills then players like this are very likely to get a higher level of luck than others, I think it is very unlikely they use cheats in gambling like this and or other casinos.
hero member
Activity: 2352
Merit: 905
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It's not a dirty cheat at all. Of course, some casinos will call it a cheat cause it gives you some advantage over them and they don't want it but to be fair who can control you online? No one will understand that you count cards but they may have algorithms that can guess your strategy and if you count, ban you. But I highly doubt that ever happens because live casino suppliers use 8 decks during blackjack and cutting card is put not in the middle but a little bit closer to 4th dack but sometimes it happens and because of employees mistakes cutting card is put on near to 5th and 6th deck but that happens very rarely and sometimes that accidents are reported by dealers and quickly fixed.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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So perhaps, one casino considers that counting cards are illegal, and they will ban the player from using that method. But in the other casino, counting cards is not illegal, and the player can use it as long as the player is doing without any technology. Well, that will depend on where you play the game

I expected something like that. Methinks it can be now rightfully declared as an official gray area for the purposes of this thread. With that said, the case which at this point might be of interest to us (given the amount of attention this dilemma has drawn) is when it is illegal in a casino to do the card counting. And most interesting is how they are implementing this ban in practice. For example, how are they distinguishing between legitimately raising the stakes and what they think of as illegally upping the ante?

Anyone have an idea?
full member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 146
I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught)

Emphasis is mine

And that's another can full of worms. Okay, the books are saying that card counting is illegal and you get thrown out once caught. But here comes the tricky part. How can a casino, or anyone else other than yourself, tell that you are cheating in this fashion, i.e. actually catch you red-handed? There's no legitimate or reliable way unless you do something stupid that gives up your approaches. Raising stakes can be considered such a proof from the casino's point of view (which seems to be the case anyway), but there can as well be a myriad of other reasons for doing that, you pick up one
So this is a trick used by the casinos if someone won huge amount of rewards! How can they say it is a form of cheat?

Its like a strategy to analyze the game so it must be called as skill though.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1151
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It’s a very skilled way of cheating, if anybody is intelligent & suave enough to do it then they deserve what comes with it to be honest.

agree on this one, could not say that it is legit, but if you can count cards, it is a special skill, that has to be developed and trained, so could not say that it is cheating, which is related to some kind of scam with an easy effort
of course, casino has final words on this one, and they do not want to lose money, so they will call it dirty cheat always
legendary
Activity: 3304
Merit: 1617
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It’s a very skilled way of cheating, if anybody is intelligent & suave enough to do it then they deserve what comes with it to be honest.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught)

Emphasis is mine

And that's another can full of worms. Okay, the books are saying that card counting is illegal and you get thrown out once caught. But here comes the tricky part. How can a casino, or anyone else other than yourself, tell that you are cheating in this fashion, i.e. actually catch you red-handed? There's no legitimate or reliable way unless you do something stupid that gives up your approaches. Raising stakes can be considered such a proof from the casino's point of view (which seems to be the case anyway), but there can as well be a myriad of other reasons for doing that, dealer's choice to pick up one
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1849
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Quote
Casinos have the right to deny service to anyone, and of makes sense to deny players from playing a game in which they have an advantage versus the house.

So perhaps, one casino considers that counting cards are illegal, and they will ban the player from using that method. But in the other casino, counting cards is not illegal, and the player can use it as long as the player is doing without any technology. Well, that will depend on where you play the game Wink

It's enough stupid, i think anyone here understand. As i said before, "counting" doesn't affect probability of game result. For example, we are playing Hold'em, and i have two Jacks on my hand. So, i'm counting the probability to get at least one more Jack for set. This will be 2/50 (i don't count cards at my hand, and poker deck has 52 cards). Will it affect a chance to get one more Jack? Obvious - no.

So where is cheating?

this is how group card counting works:

1. the spotter plays the minimum and is the lead card counter
2. he signals the big bettor when the deck is hot (ie more likely to produce face cards and aces = better odds)
3. the big bettor raises the stakes

instead of prohibiting this type of action, casinos use a practice called "preferential shuffling". when stakes are raised mid-game, the decks are shuffled. this removes any card counting advantage but allows players to raise the stakes, yielding more profits for the casino.

Heh, really interesting  Smiley

But you're talking about some pure cheating, if i correctly understand what you're talking about. With ordinary probability theory you can't be sure what cards will be after, only the chance to get it. Also, you should know all hands of all players at the table (if we are talking about poker)

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
For example, if you start to bet more (i.e. increase the stakes) after more cards are seen, this is kinda a sure sign that you are counting the cards (provided your own cards are good). Otherwise, there is no logic in raising the stakes. But then raising the stakes during the game should be prohibited to make counting cards an exercise in futility
gamblers often raise stakes after losing in a futile attempt to get back in the black. this is profitable for casinos who generally have an edge either way. they want people to raise stakes.

a better solution would be to shuffle when players increase the stakes. that gives the house their edge back.
Well, that's not what I mean

And this is probably not what is meant by card counting, either. I can't say that I'm much into card games (just curious), but in certain games (e.g. poker) you can raise stakes during the game (e.g. to make the other players fold). In this case, card counting refers to deducing what cards the other players might have by looking at what you yourself have been dealt and what cards have already been played.

obviously. Roll Eyes

i was responding to your point that casinos should prohibit raising stakes during the game to prevent card counters from having an edge.

this is how group card counting works:

1. the spotter plays the minimum and is the lead card counter
2. he signals the big bettor when the deck is hot (ie more likely to produce face cards and aces = better odds)
3. the big bettor raises the stakes

instead of prohibiting this type of action, casinos use a practice called "preferential shuffling". when stakes are raised mid-game, the decks are shuffled. this removes any card counting advantage but allows players to raise the stakes, yielding more profits for the casino.
hero member
Activity: 2926
Merit: 567

Its going to be tragic when your mind pulls some memories that aren't correct which the cards were merely games in the past. It's probably possible if you have played the game over and over and you are not sure anymore whether what you counted was right.

You'd really have to be addicted to the game to be able to lay your plans ahead when you assume what cards are left.



Yeah that's true you are going to need hundreds of games before you can actually implement it, it's much different when you are in practice than doing it in an actual game, there are so many distractions doing card reading in the actual games than in practice, but if you mastered it but people know that you have it, you cannot stay playing in one casino, they won't let you.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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Otherwise, there is no logic in raising the stakes. But then raising the stakes during the game should be prohibited to make counting cards an exercise in futility

gamblers often raise stakes after losing in a futile attempt to get back in the black. this is profitable for casinos who generally have an edge either way. they want people to raise stakes.

a better solution would be to shuffle when players increase the stakes. that gives the house their edge back

Well, that's not what I mean

And this is probably not what is meant by card counting, either. I can't say that I'm much into card games (just curious), but in certain games (e.g. poker) you can raise stakes during the game (e.g. to make the other players fold). In this case, card counting refers to deducing what cards the other players might have by looking at what you yourself have been dealt and what cards have already been played. I agree that this is a skill which every decent card player should have or develop, but casinos seem to think differently, especially when all of a sudden you start to raise stakes against the house
hero member
Activity: 3038
Merit: 617

If you get caught I guess its cheating as they did make it a rule in the traditional casinos. I tried counting while playing just around with friends, its actually hard to do unless you have a very keen mind in remembering the cards. Counting cards in online casinos is a lot harder if possible. Should you discover a fair casino if you can do this. But you definitely have the skills if you can count the cards alone, using the counting card skill to work for to win is a lot better skill.

Im not really that good on remembering things that do flashes out on a few seconds or more. Im not say this isnt a skill but you do really need to have that photographic memory which is really an advantage into these kind of game where you can able to card count and remember everything .Its cheating on House rules but it isnt in general sense

Photographic memory is a myth (an urban legend if you please)

However, we all have a kind of photographic memory. There were plenty of extensive studies and research into the matter that show how well regular people remember images if they were exposed to them only for half a second. In the experiments all of the tested people were able to tell the images they saw a few hours ago from the new images presented to them next to the old ones. Moreover, even after a couple years like 80% of the tested subjects were able to tell if they saw a certain image in the past. It basically means that what we see somehow gets indelibly imprinted in our memory even if we can't consciously retrieve this information later

Its going to be tragic when your mind pulls some memories that aren't correct which the cards were merely games in the past. It's probably possible if you have played the game over and over and you are not sure anymore whether what you counted was right.

You'd really have to be addicted to the game to be able to lay your plans ahead when you assume what cards are left.


hero member
Activity: 2926
Merit: 567
23 to 1 on the poll I wonder how this becomes a cheat, I consider it a legit skill to beat the dealer and your opponents, it's not easy to do I cannot even do it because I have a lot of memory lapse, only a few people have a photographic memory it's a gift if you can remember precisely all those cards that come along.
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