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Topic: Criticisms? - page 3. (Read 11855 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 29, 2012, 04:32:31 AM
Most people would interpret that to mean that instead of a system where a court checks if a person is proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt before punishing them, you have lots of people who feel damaged by a suspected killer and who will get together to kill him.

Proving guilt beyond all reasonable doubt won't happen with mob law.  You will see innocents killed. 

Of course, that makes all of the mob killers too and they are then targets themselves.  In my background of sectarian violence, this is a very familiar scenario.  Its hard to see the point of the NAP if that is how its intended to work.

Ahh. I see your point, and indeed, if the mob decided to take vengeance, that would tend to break the system. Thus why I disapprove of retributive violence. It's usually counterproductive, and always unproductive. In other words, it never fixes anything, and usually makes things worse. The solution here is again, since nobody is in immediate danger, to use arbitration. Each of those people have a grievance against the killer, which can be brought to arbitration.

He's harmed someone, violently, so in this instance, I would consider forcing him to show up justified.

A system where a mob can hang a man without a jury trial is a system where mobs will hang men without jury trials.  If the mobs are of different races or religion, they will argue its self-defence.  The question is whether the NAP forbids it?  If not, its a lot less benign that I thought. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 28, 2012, 05:33:55 PM
Most people would interpret that to mean that instead of a system where a court checks if a person is proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt before punishing them, you have lots of people who feel damaged by a suspected killer and who will get together to kill him.

Proving guilt beyond all reasonable doubt won't happen with mob law.  You will see innocents killed. 

Of course, that makes all of the mob killers too and they are then targets themselves.  In my background of sectarian violence, this is a very familiar scenario.  Its hard to see the point of the NAP if that is how its intended to work.

Ahh. I see your point, and indeed, if the mob decided to take vengeance, that would tend to break the system. Thus why I disapprove of retributive violence. It's usually counterproductive, and always unproductive. In other words, it never fixes anything, and usually makes things worse. The solution here is again, since nobody is in immediate danger, to use arbitration. Each of those people have a grievance against the killer, which can be brought to arbitration.

He's harmed someone, violently, so in this instance, I would consider forcing him to show up justified.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 28, 2012, 05:01:59 PM
In addition to the fact that if you follow the strict law of NAP, then murder cannot be a crime.  Thought Experiment: if I murder someone, who can retaliate against me without breaking the NAP?  The only person that has the moral high ground by which to kill me back, or put me in jail, or otherwise instigate 'force' against me would be the recently deceased person, no?  How would anyone else have claim on my personal liberty?
When you kill someone, you don't just hurt them. You hurt their family, their friends, their coworkers, practically everyone they know will be affected by your actions.
So all those people are free to attack you if you kill one person?  Please tell me you are I am mistaken - that makes the NAP meaningless Sad

I'd like you to explain how that makes NAP meaningless, But I'll address your question first.

I don't endorse or condone retributive violence. Only in very few cases would I even accept it. All of these people, however, would have claim for damages against the killer, in lesser and greater degrees. So the murdered person is not the only victim, just the one that was most harmed, and the one whom you are least able to make whole.

Most people would interpret that to mean that instead of a system where a court checks if a person is proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt before punishing them, you have lots of people who feel damaged by a suspected killer and who will get together to kill him.

Proving guilt beyond all reasonable doubt won't happen with mob law.  You will see innocents killed. 

Of course, that makes all of the mob killers too and they are then targets themselves.  In my background of sectarian violence, this is a very familiar scenario.  Its hard to see the point of the NAP if that is how its intended to work.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 28, 2012, 01:52:59 PM
In addition to the fact that if you follow the strict law of NAP, then murder cannot be a crime.  Thought Experiment: if I murder someone, who can retaliate against me without breaking the NAP?  The only person that has the moral high ground by which to kill me back, or put me in jail, or otherwise instigate 'force' against me would be the recently deceased person, no?  How would anyone else have claim on my personal liberty?
When you kill someone, you don't just hurt them. You hurt their family, their friends, their coworkers, practically everyone they know will be affected by your actions.
So all those people are free to attack you if you kill one person?  Please tell me you are I am mistaken - that makes the NAP meaningless Sad

I'd like you to explain how that makes NAP meaningless, But I'll address your question first.

I don't endorse or condone retributive violence. Only in very few cases would I even accept it. All of these people, however, would have claim for damages against the killer, in lesser and greater degrees. So the murdered person is not the only victim, just the one that was most harmed, and the one whom you are least able to make whole.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 28, 2012, 01:35:47 PM
In addition to the fact that if you follow the strict law of NAP, then murder cannot be a crime.  Thought Experiment: if I murder someone, who can retaliate against me without breaking the NAP?  The only person that has the moral high ground by which to kill me back, or put me in jail, or otherwise instigate 'force' against me would be the recently deceased person, no?  How would anyone else have claim on my personal liberty?


When you kill someone, you don't just hurt them. You hurt their family, their friends, their coworkers, practically everyone they know will be affected by your actions.

So all those people are free to attack you if you kill one person?  Please tell me you are mistaken - that makes the NAP meaningless Sad
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
June 28, 2012, 11:26:43 AM
LOL, love it.  But you forgot:

*  Counterfeiting
*  Every type of financial fraud imaginable

No one on the Bitcoin forum is worried about how the free market would eliminate counterfeiting. Tongue
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 27, 2012, 10:00:06 PM
In addition to the fact that if you follow the strict law of NAP, then murder cannot be a crime.  Thought Experiment: if I murder someone, who can retaliate against me without breaking the NAP?  The only person that has the moral high ground by which to kill me back, or put me in jail, or otherwise instigate 'force' against me would be the recently deceased person, no?  How would anyone else have claim on my personal liberty?


When you kill someone, you don't just hurt them. You hurt their family, their friends, their coworkers, practically everyone they know will be affected by your actions.

Awesome! A lynch mob in the making. Let the family feuds begin (and escalate (and escalate (and escalate))).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 27, 2012, 09:48:27 PM
In addition to the fact that if you follow the strict law of NAP, then murder cannot be a crime.  Thought Experiment: if I murder someone, who can retaliate against me without breaking the NAP?  The only person that has the moral high ground by which to kill me back, or put me in jail, or otherwise instigate 'force' against me would be the recently deceased person, no?  How would anyone else have claim on my personal liberty?


When you kill someone, you don't just hurt them. You hurt their family, their friends, their coworkers, practically everyone they know will be affected by your actions.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
June 27, 2012, 09:32:40 PM
In NAP-Land, nothing is illegal. For example, none of these are illegal:

1. Murder, mass murder
2. Stealing, theft, trespass, B & E
3. Blackmail, extortion
4. Slander, bullying, threatening
5. Environmental destruction, toxic waste dumping, poaching
6. Polluting, noise
7. Spying
8. Kidnapping
9. Child abuse

The following are common (very very common)

1. Lawsuits, counter-suits, and more
2. Revenge, feuds, escalation of feuds
3. Weapons, and more weapons, and bigger weapons
4. Looking over your shoulder wherever you go
5. Tolls, fees, penalties
6. Inconsistency with regard to, well, everything


LOL, love it.  But you forgot:

*  Counterfeiting
*  Every type of financial fraud imaginable

In addition to the fact that if you follow the strict law of NAP, then murder cannot be a crime.  Thought Experiment: if I murder someone, who can retaliate against me without breaking the NAP?  The only person that has the moral high ground by which to kill me back, or put me in jail, or otherwise instigate 'force' against me would be the recently deceased person, no?  How would anyone else have claim on my personal liberty?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 25, 2012, 05:33:05 PM
I wouldn't consider the existing world to be NAP-land because most of those states don't follow the NAP or even try. Yes, this is because some things are broken that we need to fix - for example, by promoting an independent monetary system, or convincing people to stop supporting wars. Given that myrkul's stated plan is agorism, I thought it was clear to everyone that he isn't going to just buy an island and hope that everything works out. If you think force is a natural monopoly, then let's work together to fix that. We can accomplish anything!

But I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth (sorry!) this is just my effort to understand myrkul's Ancap position.

You've done a good job of understanding my position. Don't get me wrong, if I could get an island (or asteroid) to start from scratch, with a group of fellow AnCaps, I would, in a heartbeat. Since I can't, however, I recognize the need for an alternate path. That path, in my opinion, is Agorism, which, in a nutshell is telling the government to go pound sand, and building our system here and now. That's a gross oversimplification, and doesn't even touch on the strategies to make it work, but those things have been discussed elsewhere, and I can provide links to detailed explanations, if desired.
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
June 25, 2012, 04:53:25 PM
Explodicle,

If you're going to quote me, then quote what I said, or say it yourself.

Regarding your statement, clearly if any and every ugly and despicable act under the sun is not illegal in NAP-Land, then obviously other stuff is as well. Number 9 on your list is very interesting. The World analogizes to NAP-Land in some ways - nations are privately owned properties where residents pay monthly fees, but must abide by the security forces employed by the land owners, and the relations between these property owners are negotiated on a per situation basis.

Note that within that world (our world), there are feuds, atomic bomb explosions, mass murder, genocide, etc. Welcome to NAP-Land!

I've edited the orginal post to avoid any further confusion.

I wouldn't consider the existing world to be NAP-land because most of those states don't follow the NAP or even try. Yes, this is because some things are broken that we need to fix - for example, by promoting an independent monetary system, or convincing people to stop supporting wars. Given that myrkul's stated plan is agorism, I thought it was clear to everyone that he isn't going to just buy an island and hope that everything works out. If you think force is a natural monopoly, then let's work together to fix that. We can accomplish anything!

But I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth (sorry!) this is just my effort to understand myrkul's Ancap position.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 25, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
In NAP-Land, nothing is illegal. For example, none of these are illegal:

1. Breaking DRM on your own phone
2. Possessing cannabis
3. Transferring wealth anonymously
4. Public nudity
5. Not buying health insurance
6. Sodomy, gay marriage
7. Fireworks
8. Refusing to pay for atom bombs
9. Moving across the world without anyone's permission

The following are common (very very common, based entirely on my own imagination)

1. Doing whatever the hell I want so long as it doesn't harm you.

FTFY

Exactly. It's amazing, how he can call it "NAP land", and ignore the fact that NAP means Non-Aggression Principle.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 25, 2012, 12:00:28 PM
Explodicle,

If you're going to quote me, then quote what I said, or say it yourself.

Regarding your statement, clearly if any and every ugly and despicable act under the sun is not illegal in NAP-Land, then obviously other stuff is as well. Number 9 on your list is very interesting. The World analogizes to NAP-Land in some ways - nations are privately owned properties where residents pay monthly fees, but must abide by the security forces employed by the land owners, and the relations between these property owners are negotiated on a per situation basis.

Note that within that world (our world), there are feuds, atomic bomb explosions, mass murder, genocide, etc. Welcome to NAP-Land!
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 25, 2012, 11:52:40 AM
For someone who said he'd "largely ignore" me, he sure talks a lot, doesn't he?

I believe the context of the statement was with regard to a statement you made about me. My observations within this thread are about NAP, and as long as you continue to promulgate the concept of it, I can't help but point out the absurdities of it. Regardless, I don't think others care about personal statements between you and me.
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
June 25, 2012, 11:50:35 AM
In NAP-Land, nothing is illegal. For example, none of these are illegal:

1. Breaking DRM on your own phone
2. Possessing cannabis
3. Transferring wealth anonymously
4. Public nudity
5. Not buying health insurance
6. Sodomy, gay marriage
7. Fireworks
8. Refusing to pay for atom bombs
9. Moving across the world without anyone's permission

The following are common (very very common, based entirely on my own imagination)

1. Doing whatever the hell I want so long as it doesn't harm you.

FTFY

Edit: for those who are unaware, "FTFY" stands for "fixed that for you". The meme is to take something someone else wrote and change key elements so it is "fixed". In this case I took FirstAscent's "good" laws and replaced them with laws that are much worse.
hero member
Activity: 815
Merit: 1000
June 25, 2012, 04:24:50 AM
Now of course AnCap can "work" but will it be better than our democratic systems? Not unless human nature changes.

In 415 BC a democratically elected government attacked a neutral island that refused to join its military alliance and killed all of the men and enslaved all of the children.

Even in the context of a war, such an action would be considerably less likely and less successful in modern times. If not human nature, what did change?
Compared to old times everyone today is "rich" due to cheap coal, oil, gas and technological progress.

Just watch when the oil lets up and the financial crisis worsens, things will get nasty again.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 25, 2012, 02:37:20 AM
For someone who said he'd "largely ignore" me, he sure talks a lot, doesn't he?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 25, 2012, 02:32:01 AM
In NAP-Land, nothing is illegal. For example, none of these are illegal:

1. Murder, mass murder
2. Stealing, theft, trespass, B & E
3. Blackmail, extortion
4. Slander, bullying, threatening
5. Environmental destruction, toxic waste dumping, poaching
6. Polluting, noise
7. Spying
8. Kidnapping
9. Child abuse

The following are common (very very common)

1. Lawsuits, counter-suits, and more
2. Revenge, feuds, escalation of feuds
3. Weapons, and more weapons, and bigger weapons
4. Looking over your shoulder wherever you go
5. Tolls, fees, penalties
6. Inconsistency with regard to, well, everything
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 24, 2012, 09:26:38 PM
Myrkull: You have stated that the defense agencies wont attack each other since it will not be profitable. Why is it that criminal gangs that want to maximize profit attack each other? Why is it that states now and historically attack each other?

In NAP-Land, there is no distinction between defense agencies, gangs, companies who defend themselves, cartels, assholes with a following, etc. No regulations means any of the above can and will exist, and nothing precludes anyone from hiring any of the above. Sure, Myrkul's idealistic "defense agencies" can exist, but the line is blurred, and the others can and will exist.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 24, 2012, 08:25:53 PM
Myrkull: You have stated that the defense agencies wont attack each other since it will not be profitable. Why is it that criminal gangs that want to maximize profit attack each other? Why is it that states now and historically attack each other?

Ahh... You have no idea how good it is to hear a sensible criticism.

The answer is pretty simple, actually. Both states and criminal gangs attack each other out of ideology, either political or religious, or to gain "turf". Since protection agencies would be in market competition, rather than regional monopolies (a feature both criminal gangs and their larger cousins States share), they won't be fighting over turf, and to prove their ideology better than the others, they need only show that they can attract more customers than the others. Market competition calms things down rather a lot, much like you won't see churches sponsoring crusades against one another any more, now that we let people choose whatever religion they want.
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