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Topic: Criticisms? - page 5. (Read 11855 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 23, 2012, 06:04:14 PM
Could that be because you are a dreamer and you have no idea how the real world works?

No, I know exactly how the world works. The idea is to change that.

Any change has to be in the context of human nature and old fashioned economics.  The system you describe creates market incentives to totalitarian dominance by 1 defence agency.  You assume that Blackwater and Aegis and the like will become nicer organisations staffed by more sweet natured mercenaries in your NAP world.  There is no reason for the rest of us to share you assumption. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 23, 2012, 03:34:45 PM
Could that be because you are a dreamer and you have no idea how the real world works?

No, I know exactly how the world works. The idea is to change that.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 23, 2012, 10:26:51 AM
They have the ordinance, the men and the experience to be "defence agencies" and absent a state, what will stop them?

Well, that is a problem, isn't it? They're part of the current monopoly of power. But that's not really a problem with the system as such, but rather with getting from here to there.

We're not discussing how to get there from here, really, (though if you'd like to, we can) but the way that makes the most sense to me is Agorism.

Um no.  They are not allowed operate in our countries the way they do in Iraq and Afghanistan.  In your system, they will be free to do as they please.  

Sigh. The problem with discussing this sort of thing with people like you is that people see, and expect, in others what they see in themselves.

...snip...

Could that be because you are a dreamer and you have no idea how the real world works?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 23, 2012, 04:28:52 AM
They have the ordinance, the men and the experience to be "defence agencies" and absent a state, what will stop them?

Well, that is a problem, isn't it? They're part of the current monopoly of power. But that's not really a problem with the system as such, but rather with getting from here to there.

We're not discussing how to get there from here, really, (though if you'd like to, we can) but the way that makes the most sense to me is Agorism.

Um no.  They are not allowed operate in our countries the way they do in Iraq and Afghanistan.  In your system, they will be free to do as they please. 

Sigh. The problem with discussing this sort of thing with people like you is that people see, and expect, in others what they see in themselves.

Also, your response has nothing to do with my statement.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 23, 2012, 04:07:16 AM
They have the ordinance, the men and the experience to be "defence agencies" and absent a state, what will stop them?

Well, that is a problem, isn't it? They're part of the current monopoly of power. But that's not really a problem with the system as such, but rather with getting from here to there.

We're not discussing how to get there from here, really, (though if you'd like to, we can) but the way that makes the most sense to me is Agorism.

Um no.  They are not allowed operate in our countries the way they do in Iraq and Afghanistan.  In your system, they will be free to do as they please. 
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 22, 2012, 11:59:32 PM
I think what myrkul is proposing is an Ancap society actually populated with Ancaps.

No such thing.

1. People change.
2. People don't always adhere to their principles when the tables turn against them.
3. Outside forces and internal forces create scenarios which require a change of principles.
4. People have children who don't agree.
5. Immigrants come in and see a weak system that can be taken advantage of.

From point 5:
Like the original forefathers to this great nation, immigrants who discovered a weak point and then killed everyone here with germ warfare, then turned the story in to one of cute cowboy and indian movies depicting the Indians as the aggressors you mean?

An excellent example. Thank you for demonstrating the validity of point #5.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
June 22, 2012, 06:11:02 PM
I think what myrkul is proposing is an Ancap society actually populated with Ancaps.

No such thing.

1. People change.
2. People don't always adhere to their principles when the tables turn against them.
3. Outside forces and internal forces create scenarios which require a change of principles.
4. People have children who don't agree.
5. Immigrants come in and see a weak system that can be taken advantage of.

From point 5:
Like the original forefathers to this great nation, immigrants who discovered a weak point and then killed everyone here with germ warfare, then turned the story in to one of cute cowboy and indian movies depicting the Indians as the aggressors you mean?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 05:42:39 PM
They have the ordinance, the men and the experience to be "defence agencies" and absent a state, what will stop them?

Well, that is a problem, isn't it? They're part of the current monopoly of power. But that's not really a problem with the system as such, but rather with getting from here to there.

We're not discussing how to get there from here, really, (though if you'd like to, we can) but the way that makes the most sense to me is Agorism.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 05:25:55 PM
Sorry - if you think the likes of Blackwater or Sandline care about that, you are mistaken.  They don't - they really do work for bastards.  In Iraq, they really did kill innocent people on behalf of bastards.  An inheritance dispute won't trouble them for a nanosecond.

Why don't we take a step back here?  I admire the way you put your head above the parapet and made this thread.  You have to accept a system that leaves 55% of families depending on the morals of contract gunmen is not good enough.  There is no point in spitting out an instant answer which is morally weak.

Why not take the time to think of an actual fix ?

Blackwater and the like are run by military men... by definition psychopaths - created, if not born. I don't expect them to care about humans.

You're being dishonest with yourself if you truly believe that 55% of people (all those who die intestate) would wholly be at the mercy of "the morals of contract gunmen"... you forget that arbitration is for disputes, not defense agencies. You presented a rare case, where one son of three (how many of those 55% had three children?) refused arbitration (how many of those that did have 3 children had enough shit to fight over?) because he believed in primogeniture (how common is this belief?). In that rare case, then his case might be said to be at the mercy of the protection company's morals.

...snip...


The point is that in your system, humans would be wholly in the hands of the Blackwaters and the Aegis Security firms.  They have the ordinance, the men and the experience to be "defence agencies" and absent a state, what will stop them?

I suspect you are young and have never been through a probate dispute.  Trust me, every family has members who go a little mad when a relative dies and they fight tooth and nail over assets. 

Your idea works if you set up a community where everyone agrees to it.  But in cities like London and New York? Not a chance...
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 04:45:47 PM
Sorry - if you think the likes of Blackwater or Sandline care about that, you are mistaken.  They don't - they really do work for bastards.  In Iraq, they really did kill innocent people on behalf of bastards.  An inheritance dispute won't trouble them for a nanosecond.

Why don't we take a step back here?  I admire the way you put your head above the parapet and made this thread.  You have to accept a system that leaves 55% of families depending on the morals of contract gunmen is not good enough.  There is no point in spitting out an instant answer which is morally weak.

Why not take the time to think of an actual fix ?

Blackwater and the like are run by military men... by definition psychopaths - created, if not born. I don't expect them to care about humans.

You're being dishonest with yourself if you truly believe that 55% of people (all those who die intestate) would wholly be at the mercy of "the morals of contract gunmen"... you forget that arbitration is for disputes, not defense agencies. You presented a rare case, where one son of three (how many of those 55% had three children?) refused arbitration (how many of those that did have 3 children had enough shit to fight over?) because he believed in primogeniture (how common is this belief?). In that rare case, then his case might be said to be at the mercy of the protection company's morals.

But even then... Out of pure greed, the protection company should refuse his contract. How much is one contract worth, if they lose all their others? Worse, he knows that he can refuse payment, and then just refuse arbitration again. They know that too. It's in their rational best interest not to deal with him.


I think what myrkul is proposing is an Ancap society actually populated with Ancaps. Democracy hinges upon the morality of our gunmen as well.

Yes, I rather thought that was assumed. I guess that proves the old witticism...
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 22, 2012, 04:40:21 PM
I think what myrkul is proposing is an Ancap society actually populated with Ancaps.

No such thing.

1. People change.
2. People don't always adhere to their principles when the tables turn against them.
3. Outside forces and internal forces create scenarios which require a change of principles.
4. People have children who don't agree.
5. Immigrants come in and see a weak system that can be taken advantage of.
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 04:32:29 PM
I think what myrkul is proposing is an Ancap society actually populated with Ancaps. Democracy hinges upon the morality of our gunmen as well.

The funny part is that if we didn't already agree on the next actual fix, we wouldn't be here.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 04:19:59 PM
He hasn't broken any law.  He has the money to pay the defence agency. 

Doesn't matter. The defense agencies know that 1. he might refuse arbitration with them, too. and 2. defending him threatens the very fabric of the society. Since they can reason out just as well, if not better, how letting him get away with it will affect society, as you can, they see that allowing him to refuse arbitration like that makes the whole system worthless. So, he refuses arbitration, they refuse protection. Outlaw. Literally, outside the law.

Sorry - if you think the likes of Blackwater or Sandline care about that, you are mistaken.  They don't - they really do work for bastards.  In Iraq, they really did kill innocent people on behalf of bastards.  An inheritance dispute won't trouble them for a nanosecond.

Why don't we take a step back here?  I admire the way you put your head above the parapet and made this thread.  You have to accept a system that leaves 55% of families depending on the morals of contract gunmen is not good enough.  There is no point in spitting out an instant answer which is morally weak.

Why not take the time to think of an actual fix ?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 04:13:24 PM
He hasn't broken any law.  He has the money to pay the defence agency. 

Doesn't matter. The defense agencies know that 1. he might refuse arbitration with them, too. and 2. defending him threatens the very fabric of the society. Since they can reason out just as well, if not better, how letting him get away with it will affect society, as you can, they see that allowing him to refuse arbitration like that makes the whole system worthless. So, he refuses arbitration, they refuse protection. Outlaw. Literally, outside the law.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 22, 2012, 04:09:32 PM
Classic example of NAP actually working here and abroad: the Mafia.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 04:08:30 PM
In your NAP-Land, there is no enforcement and nothing is legally binding.

Wow - he didn't even read the link he posted Shocked

Enforcement does not equal intiatory violence. How can I get it through your skulls that law does not need a government?

By providing a way to force a person to accept arbitration.  If you don't have that, you don't have anything.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 04:07:21 PM

Now you are trying to hide.  Grow up and think of an intelligent answer.  

I asked you for a just solution for the siblings when the eldest son in possession refuses arbitration.  What does your system offer for them to enforce their claims?

I did. Arbitration is the answer to disputes. If the eldest son refuses arbitration, then he makes himself outlaw. I should note that Outlaw has a specific meaning... Similar to Open Season. He has refused to be a part of civil society, and is on his own, including, and in fact especially, protection. Criminals can (and probably will) come and steal his shit, or kill him. It doesn't matter if the general populace doesn't care about him refusing arbitration, the arbitration firms sure do, as do the protection agencies.

He hasn't broken any law.  He has the money to pay the defence agency.  In a city like London, where Russian oligarchs and Arab despots are welcome, you can't seriously think that someone will worry about being an "outlaw." Get real!

What you need is a way for them to force him to accept arbitration.  For example, some form of subpoena.  Without that, they have no justice.  And if your system means that half of all families won't get justice, it fails from day 1.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 22, 2012, 04:06:07 PM
Arbitration is not enforced by violence.

In your NAP-Land, that is what it's enforced by. That, or threat and intimidation by someone who can back it up with violence.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 04:03:30 PM
In your NAP-Land, there is no enforcement and nothing is legally binding.

Wow - he didn't even read the link he posted Shocked

Enforcement does not equal intiatory violence. How can I get it through your skulls that law does not need a government?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 04:00:34 PM

Now you are trying to hide.  Grow up and think of an intelligent answer.  

I asked you for a just solution for the siblings when the eldest son in possession refuses arbitration.  What does your system offer for them to enforce their claims?

I did. Arbitration is the answer to disputes. If the eldest son refuses arbitration, then he makes himself outlaw. I should note that Outlaw has a specific meaning... Similar to Open Season. He has refused to be a part of civil society, and is on his own, including, and in fact especially, protection. Criminals can (and probably will) come and steal his shit, or kill him. It doesn't matter if the general populace doesn't care about him refusing arbitration, the arbitration firms sure do, as do the protection agencies.
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